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tithin posted:sort of the latter? but basically the tories dont have the ability to pass the legislation on their own, they can't even pass it with the DUP on board (which they're not anymore) - none of the opposition trust any deal that gets crafted because they're all having second thoughts about brexit. So opposition won't approve any deal presented by Johnson, unlesss Johnson demands an extension first? E: cute catto Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Oct 17, 2019 |
# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:10 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:28 |
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sexpig by night posted:interesting, thanks! So where does it go from here? More extensions keeping the farce up forever? gently caress knows. Probably an extension and a general election which if the Tories win means a deal not unlike this one comes to pass and if anyone else wins probably means a 2nd referendum.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:11 |
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50074585 Council tenants win 'segregated' garden rule fight get hosed, rich people quote:Council tenants have won a fight to use gardens on their estate reserved for owners of multimillion-pound flats.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:12 |
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quote:Gates ... were "never designed to keep certain residents separate" What else would you use gates for? Keeping London's many feral hogs off of the playing fields?
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:15 |
sexpig by night posted:interesting, thanks! So where does it go from here? More extensions keeping the farce up forever? Literally no one knows. - The combined opposition parties want a general election - So does the government - The point of difference between them is that the combined opposition won't vote for a GE until such a time as "no deal" has been taken off the table. The government can't vote for one on its own as it lacks the numbers to pass this in parliament. - The PM's basically said that he's not going to extend Brexit past Oct 31st (but he's bound by the Benn Act to request an extension from the EU, even though he doesn't want one) - That means to get a GE, he either needs to get a deal from the EU, or getting an extension. - The PM has remained cagey on if he'll follow the law and request the extension or not. There's a general consensus that we'll know by the 19th as to what's going to happen next (I have no idea why the 19th is the next big milestone). On a related note, I saw this and chuckled Angry Lobster posted:So opposition won't approve any deal presented by Johnson, unlesss Johnson demands an extension first? e: basically yeah, Johnson can't pass poo poo even with a united house (it's not) and extra to help. He's not getting his GE until there's an extension to brexit. Miftan posted:19th is the deadline to ask for an extension per the Benn Act Good to know, cheers tithin fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Oct 17, 2019 |
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:16 |
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tithin posted:Literally no one knows. 19th is the deadline to ask for an extension per the Benn Act
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:17 |
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tithin posted:Literally no one knows. The 19th is the deadline for the benn act, if he doesn't seek an extension or secure a deal by then, he's in contempt of court.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:17 |
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Guavanaut posted:It's not being a crank when there is a conspiracy. Yes, that's exactly my point. How do you stop it though? I don't know if you think I'd bought into the 'Jewish conspiracy' thing from my post, but I can assure you I haven't.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:20 |
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Guavanaut posted:lmao sure *after revolution* Oops sorry!! The blades were never intended to keep certain heads separate
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:20 |
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namesake posted:A referendum amendment will probably pass and means the deal will probably pass. Anyone asking for a second ref but then voting it down will look nuts and a wrecker at absolute best. That would make Labour's Brexit position going into an election much easier, as then it becomes a choice of Remain vs lovely Tory Deal That Threatens the Union. They don't have to have Labour MP's campaigning against a Labour deal.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:23 |
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On the Benn Act, isn’t it extension if no deal agreed? Like I know the whole point is to vote on the deal now, but what’s the legal definition of agreed here, because if the eu and gov have agreed on a deal but parliament hasn’t ratified it, does this matter?
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:23 |
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Still B.A.E posted:Yes, that's exactly my point. How do you stop it though? I don't think that sort of rabid zionism has as much support among anyone in the younger generations, it's more of an older people thing (in part because it's a useful proxy for military adventurism in the middle east, which is also an older thing, on the whole) and I don't think it's sustainable. I don't really know that there's anything you can do about it in the short term though beyond just... broadly ignoring it? It's not relevant to left wing politics, it's not something I would bother talking to people about unless they bring it up, and the kind of person who repeatedly brings it up isn't interested in listening to you anyway.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:23 |
RIP Britain, it had a good(?) run?
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:24 |
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tithin posted:RIP Britain, it had a good(?) run? Just remember that the Lib Dem’s made this happen.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:25 |
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Fair to say we're hosed?
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:25 |
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Sanitary Naptime posted:On the Benn Act, isn’t it extension if no deal agreed? Like I know the whole point is to vote on the deal now, but what’s the legal definition of agreed here, because if the eu and gov have agreed on a deal but parliament hasn’t ratified it, does this matter? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/26/enacted/data.htm quote:Duties in connection with the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:26 |
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Still B.A.E posted:Yes, that's exactly my point. How do you stop it though? Like any talk of conspiracies or special interests or anything is like a dogwhistle to the people wanting to come along and yell "Jews did 9/11" and is uncomfortably close to antisemitism. But the people conspiring don't give a poo poo about being disingenuous and use antisemitism themselves like associating the diaspora with Israel and saying "being anti-wealthy is being antisemitic".
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:26 |
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tithin posted:RIP Britain, it had a good(?) run? really sorry to be the stereotypical dumbass here but...ok what happens then? Like I see this threat used a lot but no one actually says what it means. What happens if the 31st happens and the deal failed, is it just instant hard brexit? Or is this one of those 'lol we never had to make rules for it because why would this ever happen'
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:28 |
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he's 100% killed boris' deal lol
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:28 |
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Okay, my reading of that says it has to be voted on and passed by parliament first (I think)
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:29 |
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tithin posted:RIP Britain, it had a good(?) run? That reads like some careless or misleading editorialising. Juncker saying there's "no need for an extension [right] now" isn't the same thing as completely ruling out an extension under all circumstances. There will be a need for an extension if Parliament votes for one with a referendum attached.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:29 |
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Sanitary Naptime posted:Okay, my reading of that says it has to be voted on and passed by parliament first (I think) That would also be my reading yes. Also I wouldn't pay much attention to what juncker says.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:29 |
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Still B.A.E posted:Something that's been on my mind and I've been very concerned about is how the Labour antisemitism stuff can become something of a self fulfilling prophecy. You have all these ridiculous histrionics and bad faith attacks from right wing sources like Labour Friends of Israel or the Jewish chronicle, because they hate Labour's move leftwards under Corbyn, or they're just straight up Tories. My fear is that, as a result of this, people will see these endless attacks on themselves and their politics and start to think that there actually is some sort of Jewish conspiracy trying to suppress leftist movements. We've already seen elements of it with some ill advised statements about Zionist lobbies and stuff, and it's not as if people on the left are immune to some crank-like thinking at times. Am I doing people a disservice here? I don't know, it's just really frustrating that there seems to be no effective way to push back on it. A friend with a keen interest in UK/US politics was over from Australia a few weeks ago. She said the sad thing about all these anti-semitism accusations being thrown at the left in both US and UK is that, until recently, whether someone was Jewish or not wasn't something she ever thought about. Now it is. She's a lecturer in humanities and visiting lecturer at a UK university. Now she puts all her notes through a 'is there any way this could be construed as anti-semitic' filter despite her subject area being completely unrelated to religion or Middle Eastern politics.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:29 |
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sexpig by night posted:really sorry to be the stereotypical dumbass here but...ok what happens then? Like I see this threat used a lot but no one actually says what it means. What happens if the 31st happens and the deal failed, is it just instant hard brexit? The default is no deal turbo brexit, but as Jose just implied this could be enough to force some unity on ensuring this doesn’t pass to force a request for an extension the Lib Dem’s will gently caress it up
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:30 |
sexpig by night posted:really sorry to be the stereotypical dumbass here but...ok what happens then? Like I see this threat used a lot but no one actually says what it means. What happens if the 31st happens and the deal failed, is it just instant hard brexit? If it's not a bluff then yes, hard brexit or his shithouse deal. If it's not a bluff then we're hosed and that's it.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:30 |
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He's probably ruled out an extension because doing so encourages everyone who wants to avoid no deal to vote for the deal Then when the vote fails he can go "given the unforseen circumstances..." and un-ruleout an extension
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:30 |
sexpig by night posted:really sorry to be the stereotypical dumbass here but...ok what happens then? Like I see this threat used a lot but no one actually says what it means. What happens if the 31st happens and the deal failed, is it just instant hard brexit? if my take on it is "right", then yeah, if parliament doesn't sign off on this new deal, it's no deal brexit on the 31st.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:30 |
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tithin posted:RIP Britain, it had a good(?) run? He said the same thing in March. He wants this deal to pass the commons and he will say whatever will help Johnson achieve that.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:30 |
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The EU will at the very least agree to an extension to debate and pass the new deal. It would make zero sense to agree to a deal and then let the UK Brexit just because of timing issues. And if the deal is rejected in parliament, then most likely they will still agree to an extension so we can do the whole "vote many times on the same deal" dance again. So chill my dudes Edit: Except if the deal doesn't pass and Boris doesn't ask for an extension, in which case, laffo Only sane scenario: Bill is debated and Boris asks for an extension until January. Bill may be rejected, but Brexit is off until January. See you then! Bizarro scenario: Boris doesn't ask for extension, bill doesn't pass, UK exits EU even though a deal exists. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Oct 17, 2019 |
# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:32 |
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Juncker apparently doesn't actually get a say on whether an extension is granted
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:34 |
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caps on caps on caps posted:
He doesn't have a choice, he's forced to do so by law.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:35 |
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Tarnop posted:Juncker apparently doesn't actually get a say on whether an extension is granted The EU has shown many times that it will go to all lengths to get a deal, otherwise the UK would be out already after all this bullshit for months. Why should this change now? The only one pressing for a definite Brexit is Boris
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:37 |
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Eh, I'm not sure I got across exactly what I was trying to say properly there. Either way, I'm yet to see any left wing acquaintances ranting about Jewish people, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it so much and have more faith in people not being taken in by bullshit.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:38 |
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Tesseraction posted:He doesn't have a choice, he's forced to do so by law.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:38 |
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What about a peaceful annexation of the UK via Ireland by EU forces? What's the royal navy going to do? rust and sink to block the path with its 5 remaining hulls?
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:39 |
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Tesseraction posted:He doesn't have a choice, he's forced to do so by law. something which the Tories and Boris in particular are very respectful of, and have faced severe consequences previously when they have acted against it
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:40 |
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Still B.A.E posted:Eh, I'm not sure I got across exactly what I was trying to say properly there. Either way, I'm yet to see any left wing acquaintances ranting about Jewish people, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it so much and have more faith in people not being taken in by bullshit. I don't think you're at a particularly large risk of people already on the left going that way, because they're disinclined to trust the papers anyway, you have to be or you can't form left politics. But the overlap of antisemitism/anitcapitalism due to antisemites consciously co-opting the messaging is a much older problem and one to watch out for anyway. Just keep an eye out as you normally would.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:40 |
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caps on caps on caps posted:The EU will at the very least agree to an extension to debate and pass the new deal. It would make zero sense to agree to a deal and then let the UK Brexit just because of timing issues. And if the deal is rejected in parliament, then most likely they will still agree to an extension so we can do the whole "vote many times on the same deal" dance again. Except I think they're voting on the new deal this Saturday and if it passes then its done hence not needing an extension (assuming other things like referendums or GEs get attached to it).
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:41 |
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Unemployment figures are too low by about 3 million people, according to the OECD https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/17/unemployment-figures-should-be-millions-higher-says-research
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:43 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 08:28 |
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:He's probably ruled out an extension because doing so encourages everyone who wants to avoid no deal to vote for the deal It's this, he also said there would be no renegotiation of May's deal.
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# ? Oct 17, 2019 14:43 |