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alpha_destroy posted:Now, in a postindustrial world, people again encounter the economy mostly through the infrastructure of circulation. So the riot comes back into popular use. This is why Occupy Oakland shuts down the port. This is why protestors shut down the highway. The heart of organized disruption is the desire to make the world to screech to a halt reckon with what it is doing. You shut the world down where you can, and it turns out in our current conditions shutting down highways and ports is where you can force the world to stop. Serious non-snarky question, what tangible change did Occupy effect? I mean I get that disruption is...disruptive, but why would an outsider see Occupy or another riot/disruption as anything other than a temporary inconvenience (not unlike a hurricane taking out a port) vs. addressing the concerns of protesters as a way of preventing future disruptions? You can't sustain Occupy forever, and there was no follow-on protest to make anyone think twice about just ignoring that it happened.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:35
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A big flaming stink posted:jesus christ i think pj genuinely acts like a crazy person sometimes and is frequently unfathomably wrong about tons of things, and all you mewling moderates manage to make her sound like the voice of reason and advocate for the dispossessed. I mean she legitimately battles with schizophrenia so there is no acting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2019 01:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:wont someone think of poor meghan mccain Man, it's just this kind of horrific screed that makes me feel like, maybe, just maybe, America was a mistake. We could be a beautiful shining city on a hill, but instead we're considering thinking about a rich girl. HootTheOwl posted:All you need to know about illhan's comments is that she was guilty of invoking a trope about dual loyalty and then a few months later Trump did it outright and the outcry was what exactly? I missed the joint resolution condemning him. Well, when the President does it, that means it's not condemnable. Gyges fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 01:37
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My understanding is that the Occupy protest's biggest impact is that it seeded an infrastructure of protest that had mostly died out, and taught a lot of people how to generally get along with a big group outside of their previous ways of organizing. The various affinity groups just didn't have enough common affinity to get purchase and eventually scattered to the winds. So, the big tangible change of Occupy hasn't come to fruition yet. A lot of groups and events afterwards could sort of qualify as "follow-up protests".
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Oct 20, 2019 01:41
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shirunei posted:I mean she legitimately battles with schizophrenia so there is no acting. Undermining someone who makes good points by stigmatizing them is a real good way to be a real poo poo person. ewiley posted:Serious non-snarky question, what tangible change did Occupy effect? It's the primary reason that income inequality is a major political platform people are fighting about now. It got demonized by everyone, but the change to the national conversation (as awful a phrase as that is) was undeniable.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:41
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Beauty as cute, taxed: From the imgur thread: "Despite its outward appearance, the Portuguese man o' war is not a jellyfish but a siphonophore, which, unlike jellyfish, is not actually a single multicellular organism, but a colonial organism made up of specialized individual animals called zooids or polyps. These zooids are attached to one another and physiologically integrated to the extent that they are unable to survive independently, and therefore have to function as if they were a so-called individual animal." Yep. Socialist fuckers. 
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Oct 20, 2019 01:42
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Pissed Ape Sexist posted:Hey guys, you ever pull up to a stoplight and turn on your blinker, and the little click click noise goes on, and then you see the car in front of you and their blinker is blinking in unison with yours but just a fraction of a second off? And then, when you wait a little bit while the blinker timing diverges but then the blinks come back into phase and you kinda root for both of your cars like they're having a conversation about which way you're both going? I'm not nearly smart enough to participate but this thread is kinda like that right now. Everybody's turning left but your blinkers are out of whack. Everybody's just mad because this stupid light is taking forever. This is an extraordinarily apt analogy.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:43
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shirunei posted:I mean she legitimately battles with schizophrenia so there is no acting. what's it like to battle with being stupid
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Oct 20, 2019 01:45
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Otteration posted:Beauty as cute, taxed: Oh my goodness, yes! I love siphonophores so much, especially the super large deep sea ones. mllaneza posted:This is an extraordinarily apt analogy. I think that's an important thing to remember. For the most part, we're all on the same page when it comes to wanting to see equitable change come to the United States, we're just focusing on different paragraphs.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:50
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I've argued with PJ forever but y'all can catch these hands if you keep being shitheads
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Oct 20, 2019 01:50
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Prester Jane posted:Remember the whole "Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib are anti-Semitic" thing? You are seriously stanning for the leadership that threw their own allies under the bus to score points with people who will never vote for them. This is still a thing? It shouldn't be. Those folks are solidly in the tank for His Orangeness and today's GOP, no matter what happens. WoodrowSkillson posted:I've argued with PJ forever but y'all can catch these hands if you keep being shitheads More USPOL stuff, less Two Minutes Hate with people throwing tomatoes at a jumbotron image of PJ. 90s Solo Cup fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 01:51
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https://twitter.com/Rschooley/status/1185675613903847424
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Oct 20, 2019 01:56
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Prester Jane posted:I use the 18-wheeler example as a hypothetical to demonstrate that it only takes a couple hundred people to cripple a city of millions. I remember seeing what was most likely some kind of direct action or strike by truckers about ten years ago. On a two lane highway near a major city, converging from three, I saw two eighteen wheelers, side by side, moving together at about ten miles an hour while I was going the opposite direction at normal speed. No one could see around them and so people didn't go around them. Even people behind assumed that there was some sort of jam or saw but didn't want to pass. What this meant was that for about twenty minutes driving in the opposite direction, me doing about sixty, I saw traffic backed up all the way to the city just from two people in two big rigs. Highways can be paralyzed with ease for most major cities if you're willing, and not just with this method. Drag some heavy poo poo out into the middle of the highway, secure it to the ground, or hell, don't, but just make it heavy as gently caress and you've paralyzed the very arteries of commerce for several hours. The longer it isn't moved, the longer people just have to wait, which causes cascading effects for basically everyone involved. A few dozen people dragging poo poo onto the highway in a coordinated way could shut down major sections of a metropolitan city for hours, which would cost millions or even tens of millions of dollars in wasted productivity. Who mans the stores if it's done early enough? Who stocks them? People commuting from outside the city just don't make it into work on time, if at all. And if done in a coordinated way, how do people clear debris if making it to said debris in the first place requires driving up to it? Not that it's impossible, but it'd take time and each minute would hurt, making each minute after that hurt even more. Playing defense against this kind of protest would be extremely difficult because there is just so much highway to patrol. The thing about packing so much capital into such tiny spaces is that said capital can be disrupted far more effectively. If that capital was spread out in the countryside? Far, far harder. But all of that concentration of capital makes disrupting commerce extremely effective with fewer people. Clogging a major metropolitan city wouldn't be a particularly difficult task, especially if you like in a place where traffic is already terrible on a daily basis. It would take access to maybe a dozen or two dozen people, access to heavy bullshit, access to the ability to move them, deposit them and then get the gently caress out while traffic becomes quickly paralyzed. Hell, one or two people could be a serious nuisance if they drop heavy bullshit on an area that frequently jams. Not even a couple hundred people would be necessary. I think you could do real damage with a dozen, maybe two dozen committed people. And one or two people could be a real loving nuisance to a shitload of people on their own. As a way of covering my own rear end, this is only a thought experiment by the by. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 01:58
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Paradoxish posted:The problem is much wider than this too. Even fairly mild actions will have effects across a huge range of industries. Companies downstream from automakers are going to be hit particularly hard by a rapid (say, ten years or less) shift to electric vehicles. Not only are a ton of those suppliers going to be obsolete, but there isn't a 1:1 relationship in parts requirements even if they could somehow magically transition. This is basically why I feel about UBI the way a lot of posters feel about single-payer M4A, except I'm more right than they are. Job transitions (as a whole solution) are basically a non-starter.
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Oct 20, 2019 01:59
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1185556207034961921
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Oct 20, 2019 02:00
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Koalas March posted:Islamaphobes and zionists (but I repeat myself) don't count. It wasn’t from a bad place but it was absolutely problematic. The correct thing was to call it out explain why it was wrong and then when she understood why it was a problem to drop it. Republican nonsense was bad faith nonsense of course but they picked those comments precisely because they were problematic, and the usual inability of people to deal with nuance meant that for many people, such as the people itt, they could not distinguish between the “don’t do that” and accepting the republican framing.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:02
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sexpig by night posted:and do you ever notice how the only people who show up at protests are the ones who don't have jobs to get here, am I right? nice strawman. You really showed whoever said that what's up.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:05
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So bold and brave behind their closed doors, off the record.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:06
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They ought to call their Congressmen!
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Oct 20, 2019 02:06
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evilweasel posted:It wasn’t from a bad place but it was absolutely problematic. The correct thing was to call it out explain why it was wrong and then when she understood why it was a problem to drop it. If you are talking about the hypnotize comment I agree but if it's the lyrics strong disagree
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Oct 20, 2019 02:09
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RuanGacho posted:I am familiar with your history and I'm sympathetic, I am saying to you as a leftist that I put the life and the alleviation of human suffering ahead of any political cause. I will mitigate your strike because as soon as the vulnerable are paying for your politics you've lost me and I will undermine it to keep people alive. Any social progress will have to deal with the enablers of the status quo and their short term thinking leading us down a dark path. This is not really a criticism of her argument or its necessity. It's not really a criticism at all, since the current system actively costs lives and causes human suffering - you just don't like the idea of it being too noticeable or it beign your fault, so you'd serve with those who would keep it quiet. That's pretty normal and expected, luckily you aren't necessary. Doctor Butts posted:I think most people have an idea that a general strike doesn't require everyone. Critical mass historically is, what... 10% of the population at most to basically shut down everything? They've got to be willing to commit until demands are met though, which, yeah - it needs leaders capable of putting together a coherent list of demands and negotiating to get them met.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:10
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ewiley posted:Serious non-snarky question, what tangible change did Occupy effect? I mean I get that disruption is...disruptive, but why would an outsider see Occupy or another riot/disruption as anything other than a temporary inconvenience (not unlike a hurricane taking out a port) vs. addressing the concerns of protesters as a way of preventing future disruptions? You can't sustain Occupy forever, and there was no follow-on protest to make anyone think twice about just ignoring that it happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement#Impact Logistics: I'd posit that Occupy wasn't a large enough crowd to effect enough change, it was difficult to get even that crowd size that happened 24/7 w/o serious economic support for that crowd, and for the same economic reasons it would be difficult to get an even larger 24/7 crowd needed now, without better motivation (which trump should be, IMO, but whatever). Any better arguments appreciated.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:14
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And not a one will stop enabling him for a single second over it.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:14
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Gyges posted:And not a one will stop enabling him for a single second over it. Now, now, I'm sure a few of them will publicly announce that they're very concerned about it any minute now.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:16
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Gyges posted:And not a one will stop enabling him for a single second over it. Is there a name for a Reverse Bystander Effect?
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Oct 20, 2019 02:16
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is there a name for a Reverse Bystander Effect? Mob Mentality?
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Oct 20, 2019 02:17
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Ice Phisherman posted:I remember seeing what was most likely some kind of direct action or strike by truckers about ten years ago. On a two lane highway near a major city, converging from three, I saw two eighteen wheelers, side by side, moving together at about ten miles an hour while I was going the opposite direction at normal speed. No one could see around them and so people didn't go around them. Even people behind assumed that there was some sort of jam or saw but didn't want to pass. What this meant was that for about twenty minutes driving in the opposite direction, me doing about sixty, I saw traffic backed up all the way to the city just from two people in two big rigs. This is the exact favourite tactic of French strikers. They'll blockade ports or major roads into cities with lorries. It works.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:17
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Ice Phisherman posted:As a way of covering my own rear end, this is only a thought experiment by the by. Don't worry, no one's gonna give you as much poo poo, if any, as PJ gets for similar posts.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:18
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Balliver Shagnasty posted:Don't worry, no one's gonna give you as much poo poo, if any, as PJ gets for similar posts. Phishy meant by the authorities. We're assholes of public record, don'tcha know. 
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Oct 20, 2019 02:19
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ewiley posted:"Let's work within the system to get Democrats elected, they might not be the most progressive people on the planet and sometimes I disagree with them but they will challenge the Republicans" You know we can do more than one thing at once right? We can elect Democrats or leftists where possible AND protest AND post on Twitter or whatever you think is effective. Regardless, we don't have TIME for incremental change. The clock is running out fast, basically 3 presidential terms and if we haven't made huge changes by then poo poo is majorly hosed. There is no time to achieve the massive political, economic and social change that's needed to stop disastrous climate change through normal methods.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:20
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These tweets/headlines should start ending with "Shame they won't do anything about it". Lots of hot air wasted being very concerned
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Oct 20, 2019 02:24
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Ice Phisherman posted:I remember seeing what was most likely some kind of direct action or strike by truckers about ten years ago. On a two lane highway near a major city, converging from three, I saw two eighteen wheelers, side by side, moving together at about ten miles an hour while I was going the opposite direction at normal speed. No one could see around them and so people didn't go around them. Even people behind assumed that there was some sort of jam or saw but didn't want to pass. What this meant was that for about twenty minutes driving in the opposite direction, me doing about sixty, I saw traffic backed up all the way to the city just from two people in two big rigs. Seems like most of the truck drivers in the US are kinda living miles driven-to-mouth though these days. Like .001% profits that go to their families. lovely, but maybe a difficult ask for some of them to clog up interstates risk arrests and lose income for a week or whatever. Strange convergent parallel, but the freep thread nuts are talking about starting a civil war via shooting out truck tires on interstates and shutting down the "libtard" cities. So there's that also.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:25
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RuanGacho posted:I am familiar with your history and I'm sympathetic, I am saying to you as a leftist that I put the life and the alleviation of human suffering ahead of any political cause. I will mitigate your strike because as soon as the vulnerable are paying for your politics you've lost me and I will undermine it to keep people alive. In the long-term, this labor action will benefit the vulnerable; in the short-term, it's causing them suffering. If you were in a position to do so, would you mitigate the strike? (eg, by crossing the picket lines so students have a place to go during the day)
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Oct 20, 2019 02:26
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skylined! posted:I am happy to be proven wrong but IIRC there were Jewish leftists *on this board* that were upset by Ilhan's comments. This kind of statement is complete bullshit. You can’t state what you want and ask other people to bring receipts. You either bring receipts or stop posting about what you recall.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:29
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T. Bombastus posted:In the long-term, this labor action will benefit the vulnerable; in the short-term, it's causing them suffering. If you were in a position to do so, would you mitigate the strike? (eg, by crossing the picket lines so students have a place to go during the day) As an aside, our distribution of services and resources already naturally favors those with power over the vulnerable -- it is impossible to effect change without hurting the vulnerable at all; the system was designed such that any pain the system suffered would disproportionately effect them to begin with. Allowing the comfortable to use that as a reason not to do anything is tantamount to accepting that some basic level of natural injustice is unavoidable.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:33
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185726931611852802?s=20 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185729537230938112 Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 02:35
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Otteration posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement#Impact Ershalim posted:It's the primary reason that income inequality is a major political platform people are fighting about now. It got demonized by everyone, but the change to the national conversation (as awful a phrase as that is) was undeniable. I guess I was thinking that PJ wanted to encourage some kind of general strike as a similar disruptive movement like Occupy, but I just don't understand how you could do that. These disruptions seem reactionary (in the cause/effect sense), and usually need some event to trigger them. Some poor guy had to self-immolate to kick off Arab Spring. Also can't there be negative consequences? Like increased militarization of police, or reactionary (in the political sense) laws passed to curtail protest for "public safety" or some other reason? How do you control for that? To me the political process is more predictable (Trump aside), and makes it easier to actually control what affects your actions will take. Even as broken as our system is, getting people to be politically active and vote or run for office seems to be the best way to work for change. Then again maybe I'm just a dumb moderate, don't listen to me.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:35
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evilweasel posted:It wasn’t from a bad place but it was absolutely problematic. The correct thing was to call it out explain why it was wrong and then when she understood why it was a problem to drop it. they picked them because they knew if they squealed loud enough they'd get attention for anything said anti-Israel. It literally didn't matter and making up absolute lies like 'uh jews having hypnosis powers is an old trope from this 1914 pamphlet that Henry Ford sold and obviously what she meant to invoke' is complete nonsense. People saying 'don't do that' were either buying into the lie or furthering it for the overall political agenda. "Hypnotize" is not a dogwhistle, the 'dual loyalty' thing was literally about lawmakers, mainly CHRISTIAN ones, and the 'ask AIPAC' thing was just a factual statement.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:35
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Helith posted:This is the exact favourite tactic of French strikers. They'll blockade ports or major roads into cities with lorries. It works. IIRC, the French blockaders generally have way better union/economic support than US truckers. It's physically possible, but economically lovely for the rest of us (US). Note: not saying don't, just saying why maybe not happening in the US now.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:37
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Weekass orange gently caress stain wilts at the barest of contra. Should motivate us all.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:42
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