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ewiley posted:I guess I was thinking that PJ wanted to encourage some kind of general strike as a similar disruptive movement like Occupy, but I just don't understand how you could do that. These disruptions seem reactionary (in the cause/effect sense), and usually need some event to trigger them. Some poor guy had to self-immolate to kick off Arab Spring. PJ can correct me if I'm misrepresenting her here, but I believe she wants to set off a disruptive general strike as a means to make our votes more powerful. As it stands now, the government does not fear the body politic and suffers very little if any consequence for running roughshod over the most vulnerable whenever it makes them a buck. Having people stand up to that in a demonstrative, "gently caress off" kind of way would do a lot to reign in the abuses of the comfortable. And ... yeah, there would be negative consequences. In some cases that's the desired outcome. It's a paradox that leaders of massive social change have had to wrestle with -- the vast majority of people, even those who are in favor of your movement on paper, aren't going to do anything to help you, and will most likely do things that hinder you. Forcing the system to "show itself" for lack of a better way to say it, making it brutalize you and the other people who are already being hurt, can make even the most soft and creamy moderate shout out to make it stop. I don't think that PJ agrees with this part, but from my experience and understanding, it is effectively impossible to effect massive social change without some measure of violence coming from somewhere. Usually it's from police or the structured entrenched interests acting out in an attempt to keep their stranglehold on power that causes them to ultimately lose it.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:42
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Party Plane Jones posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185726931611852802?s=20 The most selfless man ever.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:44
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The American system over the last 100 years has done a really good job at quashing collective action against the system. Union busting and keeping you living hand to mouth and making every day lives exhausting to navigate have really deflated the will to fight back. The right wing media demonizing and smearing any attempts is the final boot.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:46
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GlyphGryph posted:Any social progress will have to deal with the enablers of the status quo and their short term thinking leading us down a dark path. This is not really a criticism of her argument or its necessity. It's not really a criticism at all, since the current system actively costs lives and causes human suffering - you just don't like the idea of it being too noticeable or it beign your fault, so you'd serve with those who would keep it quiet. Way, waaaaaaay lower. Shutting down sections of the economy can be targeted if vulnerable. MLK did that repeatedly. He was known for it. And it could be done with hundreds, maybe thousands of people. MLK wasn't some dreamer like he's portrayed in class. He was a labor organizer and a damned good one. 10% of actively participating people means that you're having a revolution and the people in power are lucky to keep their jobs if they can keep it to a partial revolution. The threshold where direct action goes to about 55% is about 3.5% of people actively resisting with labor strikes, demonstration, boycotts, etc. It has a cascading effect which draws in more people and ironically, non-violent revolution is what's most effective against most governments when numbers get that high. A violent revolution of about the same number of people participating drops to about 25% effectiveness because the government can just disperse people with violence. But dispersing non-violent protests with violence often backfires spectacularly. Power doesn't flow from the barrel of a gun. Or at least not exactly. Power flows from cooperation from ordinary people, from laborers, and that cooperation is enforced by governments through forms of state violence. If people cease cooperating in large enough numbers then it becomes a contest of will between people and government. The state may pressure you to go back to being a productive citizen through violence and if they openly use that violence in a way that people hate, it can often backfire. Tactics of dispersion can be used to make police officers waste time, money and manpower, which are by no means unlimited. Maybe the military is called in, but the military historically less likely to fire on civillian populations, especially if they are all from the same area like if they're national guard. There are exceptions to this of course, Kent State for example, but throughout history, nations and empires have been dealt serious blows or even toppled because they forget that soldiers don't want to fire on their own people. It's one of the reasons why Tienanmen Square went on for so long. The soldiers were local and didn't want to kill people from the city that they grew up in. After weeks of protest, soldiers from local provinces were called in and they murdered the protesters. However, we live in an open and though this is less true lately, what could be called a "free society" with principles of liberal democracy looming large. If violence backfires the first time and causes even more people to show up, a rational leader will be less likely to use it next time, effectively paralyzing them and wiping their ability to inflict violence on the populace. A dictator would just kill people, but this doesn't always work either. In fact, firing on civilians often just makes them angrier. What comes after this tends to be demonization, a war of words inflicted by the media as they try to keep people from rebelling. However, word of mouth and social media spread faster than the media and you don't need to convince most people. Just enough people. The civil rights movement was won with 1% of people actively participating in some way at its height. It took decades and a lot of blood, but through solidarity, African Americans wrested major rights and freedoms from white supremacists. The secret sauce here is that the 3.5% number succeeding only 55% of the time? That goes up to 100% the longer it is sustained because protesters rapidly become more canny in how they deal with police, military and people like say, militias or partisans. Perhaps they have original demands, but violence done to them hardens their resolve, making them demand more and be satisfied with less than their original demands. There's a pretty cool book on this that I'd recommend called "Why Civil Resistance Works: The Strategic Logic of Nonviolent Conflict" that explains this in detail using data collected all the way back from the turn of last century. Nonviolent revolution works more frequently, is easier to attract regular people because the willingness to do violence is a higher bar to clear than nonviolence and the results of a non-violent revolution are far more likely to be positive than a violent revolution. It's a pretty cool book and the pdf is available online on the first page of a google search if you want to read it, which I'd suggest. A lot of right wingers actively flirt with the idea of violent revolution, but this is a fantasy in which everyone loses because violent revolutions loving suck for everyone involved. Nonviolent revolutions though allow people to capture the nation in its totality and are ironically easier to achieve.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:47
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ice, the hiccup with doing that (and the 18 wheeler thing to a slightly lesser degree) is that it actually does impede essential / emergency services BLM chapters when blocking roads, correctly to my view, made an actual organizing effort to be ready for that eventuality, which is easier when your assets for blockading are mostly people rather than heavy poo poo but it doesn't just magically happen, or really even work all that well if you just go "okay guys if an emergency vehicle makes it to the protest, move" edit waited too long, was referring to the heavy barricade proposal Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 02:47
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Otteration posted:Seems like most of the truck drivers in the US are kinda living miles driven-to-mouth though these days. Like .001% profits that go to their families. lovely, but maybe a difficult ask for some of them to clog up interstates risk arrests and lose income for a week or whatever. Strange convergent parallel, but the freep thread nuts are talking about starting a civil war via shooting out truck tires on interstates and shutting down the "libtard" cities. So there's that also. [/quote] I used to be a driving instructor for Werner Enterprises (at the time they employed more company drivers than anyone else) and I assure you there was never a time when this wasn't true of most drivers.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:52
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ewiley posted:I guess I was thinking that PJ wanted to encourage some kind of general strike as a similar disruptive movement like Occupy, but I just don't understand how you could do that. These disruptions seem reactionary (in the cause/effect sense), and usually need some event to trigger them. Some poor guy had to self-immolate to kick off Arab Spring. There have been 5 politically motivated self immolations in the us since 2016 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_self-immolations
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Oct 20, 2019 02:54
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ewiley posted:I guess I was thinking that PJ wanted to encourage some kind of general strike as a similar disruptive movement like Occupy, but I just don't understand how you could do that. These disruptions seem reactionary (in the cause/effect sense), and usually need some event to trigger them. Some poor guy had to self-immolate to kick off Arab Spring. A "million" (or whatever) person march on a night or weekend costs not so much to those who march, and they get the bonus of getting together as a group. Not gonna poop on PJ, especially since neither way is happening in the US right now.  How much more militarized can the police get? "How do you control for that?" What will you do/how far will you go to get rid of that fear?
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Oct 20, 2019 02:56
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GreyjoyBastard posted:ice, the hiccup with doing that (and the 18 wheeler thing to a slightly lesser degree) is that it actually does impede essential / emergency services Oh sure, it's bad for optics and capitalists will point from their thrones for police to go and do violence against the protesters. And there are more effective ways to go about it. That was a thought exeriment on how maybe a dozen or two dozen people could paralyze a city. If you can scrape up hundreds of people to block stuff? Cool. Good and cool. But you can't always scrape up that many people. The thing is that once capitalists really start losing money, they'll negotiate anyway. They'll run those old cost-benefit analyses, because they don't give a gently caress if people are dying from delayed emergency services. They do care if their capital isn't making more capital for them or worse, actually lose money. Some guy has a heart attack and can't make it to the hospital? You think some CEO is going to give a rat's rear end? Hell no they don't. The news will manufacture some sob story in which they weaponize that death against protesters because corporate media launders corporate greed. Personally I'd feel bad, but some rear end in a top hat CEO on his throne is not going to give a gently caress. They're already covered in blood to get where they are. More blood doesn't matter. You can bring the government and forces of capital to the negotiating table if you're that much of a pain in their rear end. As millions of dollars becomes tens of millions, they'll pay people off to make the problem go away. It's a cost of doing business.
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Oct 20, 2019 02:59
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185735579327193093 lmfao still gonna be an Article of Impeachment my man
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Oct 20, 2019 02:59
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Ershalim posted:As an aside, our distribution of services and resources already naturally favors those with power over the vulnerable -- it is impossible to effect change without hurting the vulnerable at all; the system was designed such that any pain the system suffered would disproportionately effect them to begin with. Allowing the comfortable to use that as a reason not to do anything is tantamount to accepting that some basic level of natural injustice is unavoidable. 
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Oct 20, 2019 03:01
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eke out posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185735579327193093
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Oct 20, 2019 03:04
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Prester Jane posted:I used to be a driving instructor for Werner Enterprises (at the time they employed more drivers than any other company) and I assure you there has never been a time when that https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Werner-Enterprises/reviews Yep, most of them probably don't have money to reach to next week.  But I think you proposed the truck thing as an example strike, and that's cool.Edit: fixed broken quote. Otteration fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 03:04
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https://twitter.com/ToluseO/status/1185738396880257026
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Oct 20, 2019 03:05
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Like the fucker hasn't already profited immensely from being in office.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:05
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eke out posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185735579327193093  It was the “Doral has more bedbugs living in it than Florida has people” article, wasn’t it?
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Oct 20, 2019 03:05
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eke out posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185735579327193093 lawl that shithole desperately needed the corrupt business
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Oct 20, 2019 03:07
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:The most selfless man ever. He posted that two tweet whine, then judge Janine (don't care if I spelled that right) and then half an hour later said he was pulling Doral from consideration. He had to have his arm twisted.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:08
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nine-gear crow posted:
Maybe if we can convince it about the bedbugs it brought into the Orange House....
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Oct 20, 2019 03:10
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GlyphGryph posted:Any social progress will have to deal with the enablers of the status quo and their short term thinking leading us down a dark path. This is not really a criticism of her argument or its necessity. It's not really a criticism at all, since the current system actively costs lives and causes human suffering - you just don't like the idea of it being too noticeable or it beign your fault, so you'd serve with those who would keep it quiet. This entire thing got started because Prester Jane responded to the posts pointing out that you could fix advertisement campaigns spreading disinformation via pressuring the current crop of centrists. Then she misunderstood it to mean that I and others wanted incremental fixes or wanted someone to come save us when no, in fact we were saying you can do two things at once. Just saying. This whole argument has roots in being kinda dumb.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:10
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:He posted that two tweet whine, then judge Janine (don't care if I spelled that right) and then half an hour later said he was pulling Doral from consideration. He had to have his arm twisted. ahahaha you’re right, he definitely got forced into it
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Oct 20, 2019 03:12
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I’m genuinely shocked he back down from hosting the G7 at Doral. Who’s even left in the White House to explain what a terrible idea that was? I’m trying to picture someone actually strong arming him, but other recent events suggest no one he’ll listen too has the cojones.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:12
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I'm just waiting to find out what other Trump Organization property wins this perfect search. I hear there's some towers that were well known for being the tallest in New York on September 12, 2001 and have some space.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:13
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Edmund Lava posted:I’m genuinely shocked he back down from hosting the G7 at Doral. Who’s even left in the White House to explain what a terrible idea that was? I’m trying to picture someone actually strong arming him, but other recent events suggest no one he’ll listen too has the cojones. My guess is Mitch told him that a ban on it happening was going in the appropriations bills and he could look weak or he could pull it himself.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:14
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Honestly taken aback that he backed down.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:15
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ewiley posted:Serious non-snarky question, what tangible change did Occupy effect? I mean I get that disruption is...disruptive, but why would an outsider see Occupy or another riot/disruption as anything other than a temporary inconvenience (not unlike a hurricane taking out a port) vs. addressing the concerns of protesters as a way of preventing future disruptions? You can't sustain Occupy forever, and there was no follow-on protest to make anyone think twice about just ignoring that it happened. Fake Edit written after most of this post: I am going to preface this statement about Occupy by first saying I think the actual definitive movement of the early 21st century isn't Occupy, but is Black Lives Matter. With that said, I think Occupy is still important for shaping the tactics of 21st century activism. And actually I think Clover picks Oakland in particular to discuss partially because he is from California, but I think also partially because the overlap of Occupy Oakland and BLM is pretty significant. More than in other places. I was at a wedding so I couldn't respond (I actually got in trouble for the other posts lol). I'm not from Oakland so I don't really know much except, like people said, Occupy built a lot of lot of local connections. And I don't think the bolded part is actually true. I think a lot of folks cut their teeth with Occupy and so in that sense it was important in actually training folks. That's not nothing. So I can't tell you tangible effects, which isn't an admission that there aren't any, especially because a lot of places still have active Occupy groups that have been instrumental in local struggles. Like my town's Occupy still puts word out for lots of local boycotts and things. Which says nothing of how my union's success in organizing (as in literally not having a union and now having one) depended on several organizers having experience due to Occupy. I think it also built a lot of not local connections. I think our current generation of activist is really good at understanding how the world connects. They are particularly good at maintaining two frames of reference, the local and global. I think Occupy was particularly useful for that. Each Occupy had a different flavor and had different local issues. But each also pictured itself connected to the other camps. Obviously international solidarity has always existed in certain forms, right? Like we have evidence that a lot of prison strikers in the 70s understood there was a connection between themselves and the people of Vietnam. So Occupy didn't invent international solidarity of course, but I think Occupy did, though it's rhetoric of the 99%, really help people imagine connections. One of the things about 21st century activism is every pretty much every action you see signs pointing to some international solidarity with some other site of uprising, most common probably being signs supporting Palestine. The example that springs to my mind is I distinctly remember seeing pictures from Palestine I'm support of Ferguson and pictures from Ferguson in support of Palestine. This obviously isn't a direct invention of Occupy, and Black activism in the U.S. has always been more than a little transnational. But outside of BLM, I think Occupy has been one of the more successful movements in regards to changing how American activists think about global relationships between themselves and a global community of activists. I'm pretty sure Occupy Oakland, as an organization, is still active in organizing local actions and signal boosting actions. People poo poo on Occupy a lot for stupid reasons. You know? Like, capitalism is still ticking, wealth inequality still exists so Occupy failed. That is real dumb, turns out changing the structure of the world is really hard! I'm drunk, this is way too long anyway. I know this has been an unsatisfying answer. And I know that Occupy deserves a lot of criticism is gets. But I think Occupy also still casts a long shadow. And to an outsider how are they supposed to connect the disruption to something ongoing instead of a temporary inconvenience? Good question, that is what messaging is for. You don't just sit in the middle of the highway. You sit there with signs and with megaphones. Part of the disruption is also in creating a captive audience. When you halt the world, you get its attention. You know?
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Oct 20, 2019 03:15
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I'm sure it was all the very concerned anonymous Republicans that were talking to the media about G7 at Doral. Their unsourced, barely whispered, cries of concern are the real heroes.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:17
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Honestly taken aback that he backed down. Seriously, he posted this like an hour ago https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump...ingawful.com%2F I didn't realize people could still manage to convince him not to do something once he has dug in
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Oct 20, 2019 03:19
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https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1185741264748195841?s=21
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Oct 20, 2019 03:19
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So is a Mulvaney the inverse of a Mooch?
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Oct 20, 2019 03:22
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Oh wow he actually backed down sorta
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Oct 20, 2019 03:23
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It's a Norwegian Blue... beautiful plumage....
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Oct 20, 2019 03:23
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nine-gear crow posted:So is a Mulvaney the inverse of a Mooch? I think that Gowdy who quit 3 months before he was allowed to be hired
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Oct 20, 2019 03:23
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If I had to guess, the rest of the G7 refused to endorse the location.alpha_destroy posted:To give a very short summary of Riot. Strike. Riot, people have two options when it comes to disrupting capitalism. You can disrupt production, or you can disrupt circulation. Where disruption occurs, of course, depends on where most people encounter the economy. Before industrialization we had food riots as people disrupted points and roads and essentially confiscated grain that was meant to be shipped elsewhere. Clover has a great quote about rioting, looting, and price setting. Something like "looting too is a form of price setting, albeit at a price of zero." The war in Iraq started before i really started paying attention to politics. Some protesters blocked the floating bridge, a highway; the rage this induced in the majority of people i met was frightening, and most were not Republicans. I don't believe direct action succeeds without the complicity and acquiescence of most of whom it affects. Otherwise you are making enemies instead of change. Almost every movement features a very high ratio of sympathizers to those taking action. edit, p.s.: Blocking roads in particular seems to trigger road rage in many people irregardless of their politics. As if its deeply personal to them. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 03:25
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The Glumslinger posted:Seriously, he posted this like an hour ago Convince nothing. You can't convince Trump to do poo poo because he'll just undo it later when someone whispers in his ear, he forgets or just betrays you. Someone in republican leadership probably strongarmed him because it looks bad as gently caress for optics while he's being impeached and they don't want to have to defend his low rent grifting from every loving reporter who's hunting for quotes on something so easily recognizable as corruption.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:25
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alpha_destroy posted:Fake Edit written after most of this post: I am going to preface this statement about Occupy by first saying I think the actual definitive movement of the early 21st century isn't Occupy, but is Black Lives Matter. With that said, I think Occupy is still important for shaping the tactics of 21st century activism. And actually I think Clover picks Oakland in particular to discuss partially because he is from California, but I think also partially because the overlap of Occupy Oakland and BLM is pretty significant. More than in other places. To piggyback on this, Black Lives Matter started in 2013 and it's still going strong. Idk if the Ferguson thread is archived anywhere but anyone who didn't take part should read it and see how loving different poo poo was when we talked about racism and especially police brutality and watch the forums consciousness evolve in real time. #BLM is the defining moment of the decade to me, its still going strong and it's a worldwide movement:    
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Oct 20, 2019 03:25
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Gonna guess no one knew he was withdrawing the bid for Doral until he/scavino tweeted it.
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Oct 20, 2019 03:26
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Nenonen posted:Is this forceful adoption targetting a specific ethnic group to be intentionally raised by a different ethnic group? Does it involve forcefully taking children from people of a particular ethnic group and then adopting them out to people of a different ethnic group? (Hint: Yes, that's exactly what's happening) The intention is to prevent a specific ethnic group (as defined by Americans) from entering America. That's enough intention for this action to be genocide. E: Hell, selectively restricting asylum from certain regions also meets the definition. EE: Old, old, old, whoops! Stickman fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 03:27
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The Glumslinger posted:I didn't realize people could still manage to convince him not to do something once he has dug in Trump frequently backs down... usually before doubling down. Watch him post tomorrow about how he's gonna do it anyway
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Oct 20, 2019 03:30
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185738277376184320
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