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ItBreathes posted:No formats will die any more than vintage and legacy already are dead, people invested in a format (emotionally and financially) aren't just going to stop playing, even if competitive support dies (competitive support for modern will die, if this takes off [it will take off because it has competitive support]), unless only grinders play modern and everyone actually hates it, as I've seen alleged from time to time. It's frustrating since I love modern for all of its brokenness. It's almost as though MH1 was a ploy to milk modern players one last time before announcing this. They wouldn't be that cynical would they?
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Oct 21, 2019 21:13
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UW control seems real rough against aggro and it seems like Mono R should be solid. Your early answers are slow and bad. If you survive poo poo will pop off but it's a rough few first turns especially on the play.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:20
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:1) people want to play with old cards -> legacy I still feel like the solution to "no one can play Legacy unless they're a millionaire" is to just get rid of the reserved list and print the staples into the ground rather than make a whole new format and kick the can down the road.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:32
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axeil posted:I still feel like the solution to "no one can play Legacy unless they're a millionaire" is to just get rid of the reserved list and print the staples into the ground rather than make a whole new format and kick the can down the road. Considering the entire mantra of any capitalist venture is "kick the can down the road", I have a sneaking suspicion that's never going to happen.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:33
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ilmucche posted:It's frustrating since I love modern for all of its brokenness. It's almost as though MH1 was a ploy to milk modern players one last time before announcing this. They wouldn't be that cynical would they? More I wouldn't trust them to be that organized. E: they don't give a gently caress about legacy. In their eyes, there's no problem.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:35
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AlternateNu posted:Considering the entire mantra of any capitalist venture is "kick the can down the road", I have a sneaking suspicion that's never going to happen. hm, good point. i just wonder if wotc can continue kicking the reserved list can down the road. i feel like they're going to have to amend or get rid of it. i doubt the price of ABUR power 9 or OG duals will change that much, especially if they commission new art. I'd love to play Vintage or Legacy but the entry price is completely insane so I'm indefinitely sticking with EDH, Standard and Draft. I guess if Pioneer takes off I might consider giving it a try as most of my collection is in that time frame.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:43
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Alaan posted:UW control seems real rough against aggro and it seems like Mono R should be solid. Your early answers are slow and bad. If you survive poo poo will pop off but it's a rough few first turns especially on the play. Even without Lightning Bolt, Mono red has some incredibly good cards at its disposal. I'm not sure if I'll play much Pioneer, but I can see myself playing some combination of Ramunap Ruins, Rabblemaster, Stoke the Flames, Zurgo Bellstriker and Monsatery Swiftspear.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:47
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https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/1186371195748270080 So yes, sell your [Pioneer cards that are banned in Modern] ASAP. Huxley fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Oct 21, 2019 |
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Oct 21, 2019 21:48
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axeil posted:hm, good point. Nothing's happening to the reserved list. They have basically ignored Vintage and Legacy for years, and will continue to do so. There is no easy way to remove/amend the reserved list, and there certainly isn't any financial incentive for them to try.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:49
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axeil posted:hm, good point. The only cards that will tank in second-hand price are Revised dual lands, Italian Legends cards, and anything on the reserved list that was released in or after Mirage. I have a feeling there's people at Wizards who have been there since the nineties that are mtgfinance types. poo poo, Mark Rosewater could even be one of then.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:50
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Cactrot posted:some combination of Ramunap Ruins, Rabblemaster, Stoke the Flames, Zurgo Bellstriker and Monsatery Swiftspear.
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Oct 21, 2019 21:53
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Tubgoat posted:Stop it stop it stop it! I don't want to like Pioneer! Oh Man, remember Legion Loyalist? Just think of how absurd Monastery Swiftspear into Madcap Skills can be. And you can add Insult to Injury, literally!
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Oct 21, 2019 22:01
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Cactrot posted:Even without Lightning Bolt, Mono red has some incredibly good cards at its disposal. I'm not sure if I'll play much Pioneer, but I can see myself playing some combination of Ramunap Ruins, Rabblemaster, Stoke the Flames, Zurgo Bellstriker and Monsatery Swiftspear. Runaway Steam-Kin, Skewer the Critics, and Light Up the Stage along with Zurgo, Swiftspear, and a Flame of Keld or Experimental Frenzy top end are going to nuke some people pretty hard. Though, we'll have to see how much of a grip Oko has on the format along with how popular shocks are with their juicy two extra damage.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:01
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Remember that there is no reserved list for Modern, and yet Wizards has deliberately allowed the format to become insanely expensive such that a new format is needed. They could reprint fetches, Jace, Liliana etc. any time they want in as large a quantity is needed to keep the price reasonable, and yet they choose not to. Legacy is dead and Wizards likes it that way, and now they're trying to put Modern in the same boat.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:01
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AlternateNu posted:Runaway Steam-Kin, Skewer the Critics, and Light Up the Stage along with Zurgo, Swiftspear, and a Flame of Keld or Experimental Frenzy top end are going to nuke some people pretty hard. Though, we'll have to see how much of a grip Oko has on the format along with how popular shocks are with their juicy two extra damage. Oka can't just survive Abrupt Decay or Anguished Unmaking like he can Fry or Questing Beast.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:05
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Everyone is forgetting that you get to use Hazoret as your red curve topper Sure she gets elked but thats what the haste is for.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:09
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Pioneer could be wild but until the first banning U/X Heart of.Kiran featuring some combination of Oko, Royal Scions, Narset, Big Tef, Saheli, both Ashiocks, and Karn are going to basically be the archenemy of the format. (I'd guess Temur. Oko + Saheli combo + BOAT strikes me as the first big hurdle the format has to get over.)
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Oct 21, 2019 22:10
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I wonder how many RL cards would never be reprinted anyway regardless of the list because of how clunky and bad they are; like I have a Xanthic Statue and don’t exactly imagine WotC is cut up it can’t reprint that
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Oct 21, 2019 22:10
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Pioneer existing feels like a sudden decision to me, between them starting to roll out historic on Arena (it feels weird to me that they are introducing multiple eternal-ish formats at once), and it being launched without a real banlist. But who knows, maybe the team working on it just didn't talk to the Arena team, the Modern Horizons team, or play design. There's evidence of that sort of thing, with Brawl not being available immediately on Arena. Also, the way the reserved list will be abolished will be that someone finally gets completely fed up with not being able to print Thunder Spirit for the limited format they are trying to sculpt  .
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Oct 21, 2019 22:14
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ShadeofBlue posted:Pioneer existing feels like a sudden decision to me, between them starting to roll out historic on Arena (it feels weird to me that they are introducing multiple eternal-ish formats at once), and it being launched without a real banlist. But who knows, maybe the team working on it just didn't talk to the Arena team, the Modern Horizons team, or play design. There's evidence of that sort of thing, with Brawl not being available immediately on Arena. I think you have to look at Historic as an arena-only format that's completely separate from anything that gets done in paper.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:27
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vegetables posted:I wonder how many RL cards would never be reprinted anyway regardless of the list because of how clunky and bad they are; like I have a Xanthic Statue and don’t exactly imagine WotC is cut up it can’t reprint that Basically all of them? Wizards isn't in the habit of reprinting ancient poo poo anyways and especially not the janky-rear end rares.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:30
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gently caress it, they should just made a legit modern reserve list 2. Just come out and say what modern staples are never ever getting reprinted again, so we can decide if we want to start over with this new format. I tried playing modern once, but I played Splinter Twin, so I only got to play a couple months before they banned it. I stopped playing standard around RtR, so I don't have any cool Pioneer staples. Now that I'm trying to get into modern again, it looks like they're cancelling the whole format!
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Oct 21, 2019 22:31
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I don't get this narrative that WotC isn't printing expensive Modern cards. They've been doing it for six years. They reprinted the Zendikar fetches two years ago. They've reprinted Goyf every year since 2013. Ultimate Masters was a big step in the right direction, finally making cards like Gaddock Teeg and Fulminator Mage reasonably priced.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:36
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I'm a bit concerned about Modern, certainly grates when they just did Horizons, and it's not like Pioneer will be cheap if it takes off. Also bad for Historics potential, which in turn puts me off investing in Arena.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:39
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Brownhat posted:I don't get this narrative that WotC isn't printing expensive Modern cards. They've been doing it for six years. They reprinted the Zendikar fetches two years ago. They've reprinted Goyf every year since 2013. Ultimate Masters was a big step in the right direction, finally making cards like Gaddock Teeg and Fulminator Mage reasonably priced. they printed Goyf into the ground and it's still $50 - they should have printed Mox Opal, Snapcaster, Dark Confidant, and all 10 fetchlands in every single Masters product until they were $10, and start working on every other card that's worth more than 
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Oct 21, 2019 22:40
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Mr. Locke posted:Pioneer could be wild but until the first banning U/X Heart of.Kiran featuring some combination of Oko, Royal Scions, Narset, Big Tef, Saheli, both Ashiocks, and Karn are going to basically be the archenemy of the format. Rally the Ancestors
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Oct 21, 2019 22:48
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Brownhat posted:I don't get this narrative that WotC isn't printing expensive Modern cards. They've been doing it for six years. They reprinted the Zendikar fetches two years ago. They've reprinted Goyf every year since 2013. Ultimate Masters was a big step in the right direction, finally making cards like Gaddock Teeg and Fulminator Mage reasonably priced. opal, surgical, allied fastlands, colonade, etc etc etc. prices spring up faster than the reprints address them. individual card prices dont matter if the overall cost of decks stay the same.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:57
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Brownhat posted:Nothing's happening to the reserved list. They have basically ignored Vintage and Legacy for years, and will continue to do so. There is no easy way to remove/amend the reserved list, and there certainly isn't any financial incentive for them to try. I'm an idiot who's just getting back into MTG but this confuses me, why isn't there financial incentive for them to try? Wouldn't reprinting all these reserved list cards, with special new artwork and what have you, be extremely lucrative for them?
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Oct 21, 2019 23:01
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Mike N Eich posted:I'm an idiot who's just getting back into MTG but this confuses me, why isn't there financial incentive for them to try? Wouldn't reprinting all these reserved list cards, with special new artwork and what have you, be extremely lucrative for them? After the X number of lawsuits for "contract violation" have finished half a decade after they implement it, sure!
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Oct 21, 2019 23:03
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As a company that makes collectables across many brands, Hasbro thinks they’re better off financially adhering to the promise of the Reserve List than breaking it. If/when they’re in a tight spot and Magic is declining, the calculus might change.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:04
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Prices for out of print cards will stabelize where they will based on the demand curve, reprinting one card makes a different card the rarest one in the deck and drives it's prices up. Every product has an opportunity cost, I don't think it's even possible for WotC to put out something that has enough modern staples in a high enough quantity to crash the prices that would be of any interest to anyone once all the cards are worthless. E: nobody actually gives a gently caress about reserve list cards. Whatever money wizards could make off of howevermuch of a resurgence would come to vintage/legacy (and I doubt it would be a huge one) would be dwarfed by whatever they make off a standard set. Very few magic cards have any value as a collectible, and new moxen/duals wouldn't. Demand for (and thus value of) cards comes from competitive / edh viability. Without a competitive scene for reserved list reprints they'd crash faster than some kind of fast crashing machine. EE: also, legacy/vintage are more-or-less fully supported on MTGO, which helps ameliorate the price issue and solves the finding people to play with issue, and I've never gotten the impression they were all that popular there. Fantastic Foreskin fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Oct 21, 2019 |
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Oct 21, 2019 23:08
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Brownhat posted:I don't get this narrative that WotC isn't printing expensive Modern cards. They've been doing it for six years. They reprinted the Zendikar fetches two years ago. They've reprinted Goyf every year since 2013. Ultimate Masters was a big step in the right direction, finally making cards like Gaddock Teeg and Fulminator Mage reasonably priced. $10 packs and upshifting rarity on some important staples definitely hasn't helped. Took goyf like 4 printings and fatal push to drop below $100.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:08
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Are Dragon Shield and KMC still considered the best perfect fit sleeves?
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Oct 21, 2019 23:30
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Brownhat posted:Nothing's happening to the reserved list. They have basically ignored Vintage and Legacy for years, and will continue to do so. There is no easy way to remove/amend the reserved list, and there certainly isn't any financial incentive for them to try. The financial incentive would be to sell FTV: Reserved List for 999.99 and watch them sell like crazy but they are terrified of a lawsuit from people wealthy and dumb enough to have spent thousands of dollars on single cards multiple times
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Oct 21, 2019 23:39
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"Joining a class-action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast for abolishing the reserve list" sounds like the best metric to date for deciding who ought to be guillotined, tbqh.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:48
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So are you saying I can sue because my Fork is near worthless!? (I bought it at the same time as my Volcanic Island. I think I spent roughly the same on each.)
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Oct 21, 2019 23:51
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whydirt posted:Are Dragon Shield and KMC still considered the best perfect fit sleeves? I've tried Dragon Shield's resealable inners and KMC perfect fits. The latter were fine though some of my UG Katana sleeves were really a pain to slip on, but that's just variance between batches. DS' resealable inners are a goddamn dream. It does increase the amount of work sleeving poo poo but that poo poo will never slip off and despite being slightly thicker overall than KMC perfect fits, they slid in with fewer issues even with the occasional problematic UG Katanas. To compare, I'd have to resleeve about a third of my KMCs because I didn't like them slipping off in the process of outer sleeving. I did not have a single problem with the DS resealable inners slipping off, though a few felt like they did because they had a bit more give than I'd like but upon closer examination they remained sealed. The best thing is that I haven't noticed the sleeves "puffing" up after squishing the air out of them. Every time with the KMC perfects, they'd be fine if I kept them tightly packed but if I left them out for a little while even the inners would get some air in them. The DS resealables don't seem to retain or regain much if any air at all. The resealables will definitely bulk up your deck a bit though. My Anje commander deck is too large to fit in my flip and tray's tray now with its tokens, and is still a tad too difficult to remove without them. Strangely, my Izzet wheel deck fits comfortably but it's borderline too tight a fit. Satin towers to the rescue, I guess. The trays of the flip and tray are slightly deeper than they are wide but they intend for you to store your cards with their sides facing out. I was able to store them that way comfortably with the tokens and commander facing out for easy identification. Now I have them stored the other way around and my Anje deck required a lot more force than I was comfortable using to pull it out. No idea how my Izzet deck manages to still work, guess it's just individual card variance. Rambling on and on but finding the right sleeves was a decent-ish investment for me so may as well ramble and save another goon some money.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:52
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RIP to Legacy. No show of support for it in the Pioneer announcement, unlike Modern, so it probably just gets forgotten like Vintage. With it goes the last credible reasoning I think you could have for why they would break the RL (to stoke support for a format). The current and past employees of the company will just let their personal holdings of those cards climb in value for the foreseeable future, as they have up to this point. BaronVonVaderham might be correct about Black being heavily represented in the meta. Seems like it has the highest density of answers at the start of the CMC curve. Over/Under on how long Emrakul, The Promised End stays legal? 3 weeks?
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Oct 21, 2019 23:54
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Emrakul and copter are near-guaranteed bans at the first opportunity imo
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Oct 22, 2019 00:05
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araeris posted:so it probably just gets forgotten like Vintage. Forgotten? They remember Vintage, it's just they actively sabotage it by printing nonsense and dragging their feet on restrictions.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:23
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