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I honestly haven't found a reason to care about these guys, and this page has not given me one yet. poo poo or get off the evil scheming pot.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:01
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I've been reading from the beginning and I just got past their last appearance in A.D. 2013. The re-appearance is quite different this way than if I had previously seen them back then.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:02
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So what they say they want is "destructive, unnecessary conflict". Now that we've seen the order's highest goal is peaceful dialog with redcloak, there's a way for that desire to actively conflict with the protagonists' desires.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:10
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I know it's a comic but crows can't fly in place.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:31
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ikanreed posted:I know it's a comic but crows can't fly in place. There's a feat for that.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:36
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SlothfulCobra posted:I honestly haven't found a reason to care about these guys, I mean the crux of V's entire character growth rests entirely on them and they can affect V in an enormous way narrative and character-wise, but sure, theres no reason to care about them if you ignore all that.
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Oct 21, 2019 18:48
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ikanreed posted:I know it's a comic but crows can't fly in place. What if it's on a conveyor belt?
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Oct 21, 2019 19:00
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Poor sparkly boys. 
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Oct 21, 2019 19:17
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Okay, so the fiends having been totally on board with the gods ending the world surprised me on first read, since it seems so opposed to their stated goals, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. It seems like getting the planet wiped would hurt them, since it ends all conflict basically by definition and Hela would have gotten an order of magnitude more souls than anyone else, enough to overwhelm the rest of the Nothern pantheon, and she's not part of their little club. However, I can see how resetting everyone's efforts to square one and getting a fresh influx of souls into their various underworlds could count as a win towards their stated goals of stalling everyone out while they build up an overwhelming force advantage, and I suppose they might count Hela getting a huge army as a win, since her taking over the North would certainly mess things up for the forces of Good, and since they can't get dwarf souls no matter what in this incarnation of reality, they could very well be writing them off as an unavoidable loss, especially since those souls also aren't going to any Good-aligned afterlives either. So yeah, I think the fiends are still what they've always said they are, just a bit more ruthless than I was crediting them for.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:23
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ikanreed posted:I know it's a comic but crows can't fly in place.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:28
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ikanreed posted:I know it's a comic but crows can't fly in place. Right but he's a raven
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Oct 21, 2019 19:30
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fool_of_sound posted:Right but he's a raven Oh yes. How silly of me. Has rich ever done a Poe reference or is he above that?
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Oct 21, 2019 19:36
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ikanreed posted:Oh yes. How silly of me. Just once, it bombed and he swore, "nevermore". 
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Oct 21, 2019 19:38
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PMush Perfect posted:It's because he can talk, his voice keeps him suspended in the air. The wings are just for emoting. It's actually just game mechanics; you can only make a move action during your own turn unless you have some sort of special ability or feat that triggers out of turn movement. However, you can speak as a free action even during someone else's turn. So the familiar was flying in his previous turn, and remains where he ended his flying movement until the start of his next turn, but he can continue to speak while initiative passes to others. The real question is, why are they in combat rounds?
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Oct 21, 2019 19:40
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I'm pretty sure crows and ravens can both hover? Birds of prey and hummingbirds are both particularly good at at it but a lot of birds can fly in place for a while.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:41
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Blackwing is actually taking full movement actions per turn to fly in a circle and each panel coincidentally has him in the same place.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:44
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Blackwing just keeps delaying his turn every round.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:50
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ikanreed posted:So what they say they want is "destructive, unnecessary conflict". Is that their real goal, or just what they said it was? Sounds like they want the world to end.
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Oct 21, 2019 19:53
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sebmojo posted:Is that their real goal, or just what they said it was? Sounds like they want the world to end. You really think someone would do that, just go to the plane of evil and tell lies?
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Oct 21, 2019 20:38
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Knowing what we now know about colors makes me reevaluate those things.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:27
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ikanreed posted:Has rich ever done a Poe reference or is he above that? Book 5 has a bonus comic about how V met Blackwing and it’s a full parody poem and actually pretty cute. sebmojo posted:Is that their real goal, or just what they said it was? Sounds like they want the world to end. The main reason they hang out with Qarr is so there’s a character to whom they can exposit without having a reason to lie. Anything they say to him is meant to be taken at face value.
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Oct 21, 2019 22:35
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sebmojo posted:Is that their real goal, or just what they said it was? Sounds like they want the world to end. Soooo, the IFCC *do* know about the Snarl, but I'm guessing they *don't* know about the gods' overarching plans to contain it. So are they in league with the Dark One? Or their own agenda? No doubt they have their own plans, but maybe their plans align with The Dark One's. Any guesses?
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Oct 21, 2019 23:07
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My only thought is that the moment the Order is just about to convince Redcloak is when they take over V. A fireball tends to quickly end negotiations with someone who's whole deal was their God got betrayed and killed during negotiations.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:13
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They don't get to take over V's body, just take V out of it and leave them inactive for the duration of their time. (At least, assuming that wasn't a lie.)
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Oct 21, 2019 23:17
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Also, Roy knows about the risks involved with V's deal.
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Oct 21, 2019 23:24
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Gynovore posted:Soooo, the IFCC *do* know about the Snarl, but I'm guessing they *don't* know about the gods' overarching plans to contain it.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:12
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Gynovore posted:Soooo, the IFCC *do* know about the Snarl, but I'm guessing they *don't* know about the gods' overarching plans to contain it. So are they in league with the Dark One? Or their own agenda? No doubt they have their own plans, but maybe their plans align with The Dark One's. Any guesses? I doubt the Dark One's intentions align with Hel's - the reason this had such high stakes for Thor and co is that ending this world would likely end the Dark One and his unique quiddity. It looks like they're trying to end the world. If Hel's plan had succeeded it would apparently have done their job for them. This is an interestingly high level of knowledge that they're showing - aren't the usual denizens of the outer planes supposed to have their memories of previous worlds wiped, or otherwise not aware of how many times the gods have done this? But they clearly expect something to follow from the end of the world, something that would allow Evil to prosper. If they were listening in on the Godsmoot then they likely would have picked that up. They don't seem like they'd be satisfied with merely "one evil god is going to be stronger next world" as the final culmination of their plot, so they would either have all their wheels in motion before losing their memories in the rebuild, or there's something going on that they're aware of that even the gods aren't, or they have a plan to avoid the gods' purge of the outer realms. Whatever it is, I suspect it has something to do with setting up the base conditions of the next world. On a different note, is this the first time the fiends have been shown to have red skin? I think they last appeared before hands started getting coloured in. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 00:17
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CapnAndy posted:So yeah, I think the fiends are still what they've always said they are, just a bit more ruthless than I was crediting them for. Nobody ever went broke overestimating the ruthlessness of various incarnations of evil, you know.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:23
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The Oracle also knows a lot too, who gets it from Tiamat.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:53
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PMush Perfect posted:A reminder that the IFCC has communicated with Tiamat... who is specifically shown defending the Dark One, and knowing about his new color. So, either the IFCC does know, or Tiamat is actually outmaneuvering them in her own way. My previous thought was that they were working with Tiamat to effect the apotheosis of another unsponsored god, which would jive with their goal of "destructive, unnecessary conflict" as those were the conditions that led to The Dark One. If said god were evil, owed their allegiance to Tiamat, and could squeeze concessions out of the other pantheons in exchange for locking up the Snarl for good, it'd be a huge get for the forces of evil. Though rooting for Hel to succeed kinda goes against that. I'm not sure what end they could be working towards, assuming they have all the plot threads we do and nobody is planning any fuckery with the whole tabula rasa of creating the next world.
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Oct 22, 2019 02:04
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Tenebrais posted:This is an interestingly high level of knowledge that they're showing - aren't the usual denizens of the outer planes supposed to have their memories of previous worlds wiped, or otherwise not aware of how many times the gods have done this? But they clearly expect something to follow from the end of the world, something that would allow Evil to prosper. If they were listening in on the Godsmoot then they likely would have picked that up. The fiends only learned about all this shortly before they showed up. Nale found out about it when he was disguised as Elan in Azure City, he told Sabine, Sabine told the IFCC. (Which means that the Order knows more about it than the fiends do, since the Order has the benefit of Durkon's conversation with Thor.) Tenebrais posted:They don't seem like they'd be satisfied with merely "one evil god is going to be stronger next world" as the final culmination of their plot, so they would either have all their wheels in motion before losing their memories in the rebuild, or there's something going on that they're aware of that even the gods aren't, or they have a plan to avoid the gods' purge of the outer realms. Whatever it is, I suspect it has something to do with setting up the base conditions of the next world. I think this is what it is. If they make their move now, they have the benefit of knowledge about the true nature of the world but nothing else. But if they can maneuver the world into getting destroyed while retaining their memories, they'll have centuries to build up power and resources in order to make a big push towards the end of the next world. The fiends are immortal - they can afford to be really long-term in their thinking.
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Oct 22, 2019 04:16
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PMush Perfect posted:A reminder that the IFCC has communicated with Tiamat... who is specifically shown defending the Dark One, and knowing about his new color. So, either the IFCC does know, or Tiamat is actually outmaneuvering them in her own way. That very panel states that their goal is nothing more than continued conflict. One wonders if that's all. Still, the big question is whether they're exempt from the end-of-the-world mindwipe. They're outsiders, so one would suspect no, but I'm not sure.
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Oct 22, 2019 04:23
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Gynovore posted:That very panel states that their goal is nothing more than continued conflict. Note that TDO represents the greatest hope to ending the longest running conflict in the multiverse.
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Oct 22, 2019 04:46
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Schwarzwald posted:Note that TDO represents the greatest hope to ending the longest running conflict in the multiverse. If the multiverse ends, there's no more conflict. Saving the world seems like it'd lead to higher net strife in the long run.
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Oct 22, 2019 05:01
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Destructive unnecessary conflict is what produced the snarl in the first place...
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Oct 22, 2019 05:39
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sebmojo posted:Destructive unnecessary conflict is what produced the snarl in the first place... So the Chaotic Evil one backstabs the other two at the very last minute and reveals that his plan was to create a second Snarl for shits and giggles, then?
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Oct 22, 2019 05:46
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Every time I've tried to outguess rich I've got it totally wrong, I'm just putting a stake in the ground in case this is the end of my streak
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Oct 22, 2019 05:49
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I mean there's a million and one things that they could be up to, they might be baiting the gods into remaking the universe, they could have some exploit ready to ascend or otherwise take advantage over the new universe. Maybe they want to create another snarl. Maybe they want to try bargaining with the Snarl to gain power. Maybe they have influences over how the gods will rebuild the universe next time. Maybe they crafted some reserve universe in their basement that can grow if the universe gets taken apart. Maybe they're going to steal a bunch of souls during the next sorting. Maybe they've somehow been leeching power off of successive universes. Maybe the Snarl ordered a pizza five universes ago and they're trying really hard to deliver that order. Maybe they're trying to end the cycle on their own terms in order to gain massive leverage over the current universe. Maybe one of them dropped their wallet when this universe was being made and really needs to get it back. But I'm not the one supposed to be writing any of this, We only have it on their word that they're really bad dudes and we sure won't like whatever thing they have up their sleeve you betcha. In the absence of any kind of stakes, development, or clarity, they just don't seem to have much going on. They helped V do some bad things that he mostly wanted to do at the time out of being a big jerk, and it would sure make things convenient for him to be able to redeem himself if they were doing some big horrible conspiracy, but it'd almost be better if Vaarsuvius didn't have a clear avenue of repentance and had to find a new way and discover more of how not to be a jerk.
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Oct 22, 2019 06:45
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It’s definitely got to be something involving the gates, considering they were willing to burn one of their three “time-outs” in order to keep V from warning the others about destroying the second-to-last one. Beyond that, all we’ve got is speculation as this hits the end-game.
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Oct 22, 2019 07:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:I mean there's a million and one things that they could be up to, they might be baiting the gods into remaking the universe, they could have some exploit ready to ascend or otherwise take advantage over the new universe. Maybe they want to create another snarl. Maybe they want to try bargaining with the Snarl to gain power. Maybe they have influences over how the gods will rebuild the universe next time. Maybe they crafted some reserve universe in their basement that can grow if the universe gets taken apart. Maybe they're going to steal a bunch of souls during the next sorting. Maybe they've somehow been leeching power off of successive universes. Maybe the Snarl ordered a pizza five universes ago and they're trying really hard to deliver that order. Maybe they're trying to end the cycle on their own terms in order to gain massive leverage over the current universe. Maybe one of them dropped their wallet when this universe was being made and really needs to get it back. But I'm not the one supposed to be writing any of this, I presume they're going to be pivotal in the next book, since that's what they say. I agree they've been treading water a bit after facilitating the (excellent) evil V plot back in the 00's.
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Oct 22, 2019 07:52
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