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Squalid posted:Now they would have it a lot easier than a soldier hauling all his gear, but its clear 80 miles in a day is not outside the realm of possibility. I want to again emphasize the 80 miles is from one specific instance of marching so rapidly it was recorded as an incredible feat. Caesar's usual quick marching I would guess to be 40 to 50 miles a day, double average pace. Probably done just by marching twice as many hours. An army keeping up a ten hour a day marching pace for an extended period would not be fun, but isn't unreasonable.
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Oct 21, 2019 06:23
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For comparison, in 1683, the ottoman army arrived in Belgrade on the 3rd May, and started the siege of Vienna on the 14th July. That's some 613km directly over modern highways today. They took several cities on the way, built a bridge near Esseg, because the old one wouldn't widthstand the transport of their heavy siege equipment. Etc. That's fast, with a very large army too. The difference is having a corps of engineers ahead of the army, preparing everything from road to camps.
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Oct 21, 2019 08:16
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Friar John posted:Yeah, I don't know why there's such a dramatic difference in speed between the Japanese armies of the Sengoku period and contemporary European and Chinese armies, but they can assemble and march incredibly quickly, with cavalry basically confined to generals and high-ranking retainers. These are pretty much entirely infantry armies. Harsh discipline plays a role as well. A modern army caught without mechanization usually wouldn't shoot stragglers. I remember being incredibly impressed at the Chinese volunteers in Korea covering the distance between their assembly area and the frontline in forced nighttime marches, beating UN recon planes by standing completely still and lifting camouflage above their heads! This, of course, was achieved with a lot of shouting and shooting those who refused to keep up the pace.
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Oct 21, 2019 10:28
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And even an ancient army like the Romans was not just soldiers on foot. There were also wagons and artillery and other elements that were a lot slower than legionnaires.
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Oct 21, 2019 13:56
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Squalid posted:I have no idea how reliable accounts of really fast marches under Caesar are, but I notice some obvious issues with the comparison you are making. First if someone can hike the Appalachian trial with an average pace of 50 miles/day, there were presumably many days when they were going much faster. That's just how averages work. Secondly, we should expect someone to be able to maintain a faster pace over just one or a couple days than what they could do consistently day after day for months, just as we should expect someone to be able to run a sprint faster with a faster pace than a marathon. Thirdly, The Appalachian trial by design follows a difficult route over mountains with steep slopes and lots of up and downs. Someone just interested in going as fast as possible would be able to take a comparatively flat and level path and hence would have an easier time. It's not a 1:1 obviously, but my thinking also is that backpackers are trying very hard to minimize their load, meanwhile a legionary is carrying his fighting kit, along with his personal items, and not in an engineered pack. Also to get to these numbers you have to look at maniacs who do this stuff constantly and have honed their bodies to be capable of extreme endurance. While legions were certainly drilled into peak condition, I'm still iffy about just believing the 80 miles number when we express skepticism about many other reported feats from antiquity.
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Oct 21, 2019 14:16
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A fit 25 year old soldier could do lots of stuff but these armies had wagons and donkeys and injured people and women and children and lots of poo poo.
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Oct 21, 2019 14:18
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Romans were highly risk-adverse and really, REALLY did not like to move fast if they could help it. Fast in uncontrolled territory meant good chance to lose the initiative and/or get ambushed. Roman doctrine was essentially structured to avoid being ambushed at all costs. After a certain point, legionaries marched in full kit, armor on. That was unusual if not unheard of in the ancient world. Then you've got the fort construction, also done in full kit. A legionary was never supposed to be more than X number of paces from his sword. They had formal squads for advance reconnaissance that took their jobs seriously. All of these evidence a military institution that was obsessed with maintaining control and avoiding ambush. A military institution by the way which revolved around the centurions, who would almost certainly start dragging rear end if they thought the commander was being too impetuous. This fundamental approach worked so well for them not only because it paired well with the psychological dispositions of so many of the men likely to be in command, but also because there were few "mission objectives" in the ancient world that could justify losing an entire legion. What happens if you get there late? A town gets razed? Some cows get eaten? Some hayseed friend and ally of the SPQR is annoyed? All of these are preferable to training up and equipping 5,000 dudes all over again.
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Oct 21, 2019 14:55
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Oct 22, 2019 01:16
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The Lone Badger posted:Just how expensive is it to keep a chain of forts stocked with supplies, so your army can make breackneck speed across your empire if you need it to? Probably very. During Crassus' war with the Parthians Plutarch criticized him for spending the first year dawdling about occupying small and inconsequential border towns. However I've seen it suggested by a modern author that this wasn't wasted time at at. Instead Crassus was securing strategic depots and securing his supply lines for his march into Mesopotamia, and this was probably a very reasonably strategic decision. It was clearly expensive though, in terms and time and men, since it cost Crassus a whole year and he required 7,000 men to garrison the occupied towns and forts. I don't know if it was really always necessary to keep stocks of supplies for the army though. Instead you would try to buy supplies as you go from local merchants and traders. I imagine its easier to carry silver with you than bread. Xenophon of course had no reliable source of supplies when he was trying to escape the Persian empire, but he wrote a lot about negotiating access to markets. I mean the towns weren't necessarily given much choice in opening the markets and there was probably a lot of pressure to sell at a "fair" (defined by the guys with swords) price, but markets were clearly one way to supply at least small armies. iirc one of the worst episodes for Xenophon and the 10,000 was just before they made it back to Greece when they were in either Thrace or western Turkey and got stranded in an ostensibly friendly town, but completely ran out of money. They were reduced to selling their weapons or even begging to survive, and think some even ended up selling themselves into slavery their situation was so bad.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:21
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Wasn't it also a risk to maintain forts in distant regions of the empire since when legions and provinces go into revolt, that makes them harder to put down? A lot of Rome's threats came from within instead of without. And then that's what made medieval Europe so different, since every dang local lord had a way to hold out against their liege for an inconvenient amount of time. Also why China was so reticent to keep sending resources to people defending the border, the nearest threat to the current regime.
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Oct 22, 2019 03:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:Wasn't it also a risk to maintain forts in distant regions of the empire since when legions and provinces go into revolt, that makes them harder to put down? A lot of Rome's threats came from within instead of without. I suppose but what else are you going to do. Almost all the legions were based along the borders because that's where the enemies were. Generals rising in revolt in the provinces is a problem, but if you withdraw the legions to Italy and try to dispatch them out to borders under attack, you're going to have constant raids everywhere and that's going to screw you too. Your only real option is to work hard on keeping your generals loyal.
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Oct 22, 2019 05:25
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Grand Fromage posted:I suppose but what else are you going to do. Almost all the legions were based along the borders because that's where the enemies were. Generals rising in revolt in the provinces is a problem, but if you withdraw the legions to Italy and try to dispatch them out to borders under attack, you're going to have constant raids everywhere and that's going to screw you too. Your only real option is to work hard on keeping your generals loyal. Or, better yet, stick them out at the frontier and then starve them of funds so they can't revolt. It's the Honorius way!
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Oct 23, 2019 04:04
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SlothfulCobra posted:Wasn't it also a risk to maintain forts in distant regions of the empire since when legions and provinces go into revolt, that makes them harder to put down? A lot of Rome's threats came from within instead of without. Towards the end yes, but for hundreds of years it worked fine. It''s the crisis of the third century that really up heaves the social order and it never truly stabilizes until the fall of the western empire.
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Oct 23, 2019 04:10
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It worked fine in the sense that commanding generals only succeeded in seizing control of the state a couple of times rather than every couple years.
skasion fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 04:50
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Not that they were thinking in such a grand strategy way, but having an occasional uprising and emperor deposed was probably less disruptive to the empire than the amount of attacks demilitarizing the borders would invite.
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Oct 23, 2019 05:19
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You sort of get the impression that not just in late antiquity, even all through the medieval empire it might have actually been fine and all stabilized at some point if not for the tendency of plagues to come in and ruin everything when people are taking a moment to breathe.
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Oct 23, 2019 05:57
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I was talking about the prospect of placing a bunch of waypoint forts so that every province has its own little fortress to hole up in aside from just on the border. If they're going through internal Roman territory but still worried about possible ambushes, odds are those waypoint forts would be compromised by whatever force they were worried about, rebels or otherwise, so they've got even more sieges to worry about. Like I'm given to believe that medieval Europe was much more absurdly fortified thoughout than it was under Roman rule. For that matter, did the "invincible city" idea of Constantinople ever backfire? Like an emperor's out of the city for a little while and then whoops somebody's gained control of the city and you can't get them out? I guess I know it didn't help that the imperial government was forced to be in a densely packed and sometimes unstable city, which is why emperors and later popes abandoned Rome in the first place.
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Oct 23, 2019 06:00
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SlothfulCobra posted:
That was pretty much how Isaac II Angelos took the throne.
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Oct 23, 2019 11:38
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For those of you interested in ancient trading, I highly recommend following Dr Caitlin Green on Twitter. Pretty interesting content regarding trade from the bronze age, roman and medieval era. Here's a few of her tweets to give an idea of the content: https://twitter.com/caitlinrgreen/status/1186945234393096197 https://twitter.com/caitlinrgreen/status/1186779185777463296 https://twitter.com/caitlinrgreen/status/1186745854406868992
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Oct 23, 2019 14:12
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Dalael posted:For those of you interested in ancient trading, I highly recommend following Dr Caitlin Green on Twitter. "The name Britain may be Punic and mean 'tin land'"  (Anyone not playing A Legionary's Life available on Steam needs to GTFO)
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Oct 23, 2019 14:40
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physeter posted:
What if my bank balance is currently less than eight dollars, but I want to know more?
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Oct 23, 2019 14:44
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What if my bank balance is currently less than eight dollars, but I want to know more? Unlike every other sad dead legionary in my roster, Gaius Scaevola reached retirement on his farm last night. He wasn't the most decorated of my boys, at least until he won the corona civica for saving the life of a velite in Hispania. Even so, his tendency to avoid suicidal activities on the battlefield saw him twice passed over for promotion out of optio, until his superior tried to lie about his claim to winning a corona muralis, and Scaevola testified against him. In gratitude, Scipio promoted him and transferred him to another maniple to avoid reprisal. Years later, Scaevola held the center position against the Macedonian pike push until the consul could flank their position and break a centuries-old empire like a twig over his knee.
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Oct 23, 2019 15:12
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What if my bank balance is currently less than eight dollars, but I want to know more? There’s a demo on the steam page
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Oct 23, 2019 15:24
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oh cool now i know what i'll be playing for the next week
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Oct 23, 2019 15:47
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physeter posted:Unlike every other sad dead legionary in my roster, Gaius Scaevola reached retirement on his farm last night. He wasn't the most decorated of my boys, at least until he won the corona civica for saving the life of a velite in Hispania. Even so, his tendency to avoid suicidal activities on the battlefield saw him twice passed over for promotion out of optio, until his superior tried to lie about his claim to winning a corona muralis, and Scaevola testified against him. In gratitude, Scipio promoted him and transferred him to another maniple to avoid reprisal. Years later, Scaevola held the center position against the Macedonian pike push until the consul could flank their position and break a centuries-old empire like a twig over his knee. Sold!
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Oct 23, 2019 16:09
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I spend the daytime sucking up to the Centurion, and when the battle against the Carthaginians came, I personally charged the walls and kept the Centurion safe. We raped and pillaged, till we came upon the last group of militia, whereupon one shanked me in the gut and I died. Having not struck the fatal blow to a single opponent I died with a reknown of 0, except for the centurion thinking that dead jobber who took a couple blows for him was kind of a stand up guy 
Tias fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 19:49
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This game is great but hard as gently caress. I can reliably make it past New Carthage but I always get pasted in the subsequent battle. Got bumped up to Tesserarius for some reason, then shivved by some Libyan merc in the next fight.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:10
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Communist Walrus posted:This game is great but hard as gently caress. I can reliably make it past New Carthage but I always get pasted in the subsequent battle. Got bumped up to Tesserarius for some reason, then shivved by some Libyan merc in the next fight. The game actually has some variable battle sequences. That second battle sometimes sees you go headfirst up the hill, or going around to hit the flanks and avoiding the hill penalty. Anyways, the overarching lesson of the game is that you don't need to stick your neck out most of the time. The battle is going to go a certain way whether you shank 0 guys or 5. Some fights and decisions later on will throw you into deathmatches though. don't duel the thracian giant
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Oct 24, 2019 09:35
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I decided to try and help a wounded velite and a big Gaul stabbed me in the neck with a spear, killing me isntantly
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Oct 24, 2019 14:04
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:don't duel the thracian giant Most dangerous fight I've found so far: the guy at the villa in chainmail who challenges you for village supplies. Even with me on total defense he killed my centurion-level guy in like 15 rounds.
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Oct 24, 2019 14:45
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Are there any good recommendations for books on the brothel art and dick talismans from Pompeii and Herculaneum? I may have accepted a cordial bet to provide hard evidence that Weird Sex Stuff dates back to antiquity and is not something I personally invented as a way to spoil otherwise nice evenings
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Oct 24, 2019 19:24
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I don't have a source unfortunately but I do know some manors had art of the owner and his wife loving on the walls of the living room. The art also depicts slaves in the room
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Oct 24, 2019 19:28
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Just lol if you own slaves and don’t have them cheering you on while you are boning.
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Oct 24, 2019 19:32
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physeter posted:All the duels I've found are unlimited time endurance matches, which means just abuse respite and wait for openings, while the opponent exhausts his stamina. Which is kind of cool since that is exactly how a Roman legionary was supposed to fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FU0ZMRB_Q&t=40s
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Oct 24, 2019 20:15
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Cool, it might have been Attila that initiated the "Anglosaxon" conquest of britain.
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Oct 25, 2019 08:59
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FullLeatherJacket posted:Are there any good recommendations for books on the brothel art and dick talismans from Pompeii and Herculaneum?
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Oct 25, 2019 09:27
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physeter posted:All the duels I've found are unlimited time endurance matches, which means just abuse respite and wait for openings, while the opponent exhausts his stamina. Which is kind of cool since that is exactly how a Roman legionary was supposed to fight. I can barly hurt and not kill a militamen and an armed peasant killed me. How do you do fight?
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Oct 25, 2019 10:35
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Bought the little game yesterday and played a while... Let's just say it would have been best for me to be a camp follower instead of a legionary.
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Oct 25, 2019 13:54
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Comstar posted:I can barly hurt and not kill a militamen and an armed peasant killed me. How do you do fight? Basically you want their blue circle to be low (which signifies them being off balance) before you make any kind of move on them. You can feint or hit them with your shield to reduce it even further, or attack them directly. The less the circle is filled in, the easier it is for you to land your moves. Use respite often to reduce your fatigue and let them swing at you. You want to keep your blue circle full as well. Honestly unless it's a duel that's going to last until someone dies, I only end up killing the opponent about a third of the time. It's more important to survive the fight. Once you've made it through a few missions fighting levy units or militia becomes trivial and you can sometimes kill two or three of them before the game moves on to the next phase of whatever is happening.
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Oct 25, 2019 14:16
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Apparently, climbing ladders carefully while looking concerned makes you look like a whimp.
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Oct 25, 2019 15:43
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