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Midgetskydiver posted:Just LOL at the idea that budget constraints are what caused Lindelof to introduce entirely new plot threads and characters 4 seasons into a show then drop them all in favor of a magical happy church ending. Thats not what I was saying? The budget statement was related to the discussion about the impact Lost had on TV, not its percieved story issues. I was referring to the reality and nature of network TV writing in 2004-2010, the actual process involved in studio/executive notes, final script approval and not being able to plan everything years ahead due to the chaotic nature of early big budget TV production, actors contracts and a million other factors that come into play. Its just not nearly as simple and as straightforward as it may seem to craft such a massive narrative arc at that time and if you consider those realities, its not as black and white as "Lindelof was lazy and they had no plan ever". Theres just a poo poo load more that goes into producing a story and show like Lost than one guy writing a perfect, completely planned out, absolutely unchangeable 6 year narrative. Your criticisms are absolutely valid and I totally agree with some of them, I just think there's a lot more to consider as to the "why" for a lot of what peoples issues with Lost are. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Oct 23, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 23:45
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:I liked the part where the dad does coke and then the daughter and wife both lightly acknowledge the coke on his nose but then don't immediately follow up with some speech about them being worried or something. Not his daughter, but yeah, I agree. It was interesting to use that as a way to show how stressed he is by the situation and people being worried about the stress and not him specifically doing drugs.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:55
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AccountSupervisor posted:Theres just a poo poo load more that goes into producing a story and show like Lost than one guy writing a perfect, completely planned out, absolutely unchangeable 6 year narrative. I'm also astonished that people still trot out the "they were lazy and didn't plan their storyline" argument, because How I Met Your Mother decided on its ending quite early in its run and that ending didn't work by the time they reached it and audiences hated it.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:57
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LesterGroans posted:Not his daughter, but yeah, I agree. I was 100% had me expecting a bombing or commando assault because of “Unforgettable” playing in the background. I guess the movie is fair play for callbacks.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:59
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Midgetskydiver posted:Lost is poo poo after season 1 because Lindelof just made poo poo up as he went and instead of wrapping anything up he just did exactly what creative but intellectually lazy people do and gave up with a minimal effort to conclude everything. For me at least, it was this. The vast majority of television or movies that I see and enjoy at least follow some sort of path. The Hero's Journey, etc. With Lost, it stood out to me how the writing varied from episode to episode and they seemed to take pleasure not providing any sort of path that a viewer could follow, it just meandered all over the place. Plot lines were not concluded or just abandoned in favor of bringing in new plot lines for some unknown reason. While I can be a sucker for a mystery, I at least want some sort of conclusion or even addressing that it might be a mystery that you won't solve or even be unsolvable. Just address that loving fact, don't try to hide your apparent inability to have characters progress or have an arc by introducing new ones. That's just lazy writing, and the main reason I threw ASOIAF book 3 across the room at one point.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:03
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Gorn Myson posted:Uh, when? The Leftovers ended by wrapping up what the show had been presenting the entire time; they weren't fussed about big material mysteries but rather the way characters engaged and moved beyond them. I mean this is a show that used the "Let the Mystery Be" as a title song. Lindelof specifically said they would never address what the event was or what happened to the people that vanished when both of those questions are specifically answered by the finale.  Gorn Myson posted:A 6 year narrative that is made up through 121 episodes of 45 minute screen time that features an ensemble cast. Which is apparently an easy task that could be done by a single writer who could have done better if he was less lazy. This is what you have to deal with when talking about these things. I mean, this was exactly what they did with Lost: the final episode (or at least the church ending) was supposedly written at the same time as the first episode. They just had to shuffle some people around the church because they did some things they didn't expect.  Recursive posted:For me at least, it was this. Yeah, it's like they took the 8-step journey from The Hero with a Thousand Faces and just decided "naw gently caress that" but didn't actually try to deconstruct it in any kind of interesting way.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:07
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I was 100% had me expecting a bombing or commando assault because of “Unforgettable” playing in the background. I guess the movie is fair play for callbacks. No joke, it would be amazing if they set a pathetic gently caress to Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah"
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Oct 24, 2019 00:28
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Lindelof specifically said they would never address what the event was or what happened to the people that vanished when both of those questions are specifically answered by the finale. Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I mean, this was exactly what they did with Lost: the final episode (or at least the church ending) was supposedly written at the same time as the first episode. They just had to shuffle some people around the church because they did some things they didn't expect.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:31
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I like how Lost was purely JJ Abrams' work in the early seasons but it became Lindelof's when people were unsatisfied with the ending.Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Lindelof specifically said they would never address what the event was or what happened to the people that vanished when both of those questions are specifically answered by the finale. Except those "answers" were coming from unreliable sources, and much of that episode was about what drives people to lie, both to themselves and to others. The explanation we hear in the final scene is a very good story; a plausible one, a fascinating one. But the entire point of that scene is that it's up to the listener to decide if it's the truth.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:35
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I appreciate that Looking Glass's mask is made of fancy future-cloth like Rorshach's mask. At least that's the idea I got from it.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:37
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What the gently caress was the point of the polar bear
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Oct 24, 2019 00:40
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KoRMaK posted:What the gently caress was the point of the polar bear His name is Panda and he seems to be disrespected for his close adherence to the rules, so maybe he’s a sort of hint that the police are really bad.
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Oct 24, 2019 00:43
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I like that the Russian dude's costume is just a tracksuit.
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Oct 24, 2019 01:02
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Lindelof specifically said they would never address what the event was or what happened to the people that vanished when both of those questions are specifically answered by the finale. If you think that what happened was specifically answered by the finale you REALLY didn't get the leftovers.
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Oct 24, 2019 01:02
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:His name is Panda and he seems to be disrespected for his close adherence to the rules, so maybe he’s a sort of hint that the police are really bad. drat i cant tell if im being joked on here, but i meant the polar bear from 
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Oct 24, 2019 02:06
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KoRMaK posted:
Dollar Bill was one of the original Minutemen but his whole thing was that he was just a guy who was hired by a bank to be their personal hero. He eventually dies during a robbery because his cape gets caught in a revolving door. He's barely in the comic and I think he's just there for Moore to dunk on how impractical a cape would actually be.
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Oct 24, 2019 02:10
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Again, still thinking that Manhattan doesn't show up cause he's shown all glowy and poo poo on the surface of Mars but he's not glowing on Earth.
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Oct 24, 2019 02:22
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KoRMaK posted:drat i cant tell if im being joked on here, but i meant the polar bear from I was joking on you, but I believe the polar bear was originally used to turn the wheel in the ice cave that made the island go back in time. (This is completely serious and not a joke)
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Oct 24, 2019 02:31
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Here's my theory about the Ozymandias/Dr. Manhattan thing. It's speculation, but I do also know the next 5 episodes, so I'll spoiler it. Jeremy Irons absolutely is Ozymandias. But, for some reason, I think he's stuck on the world that Manhattan said he'd go and create at the end of the book. The servants are all made in God's image, which is why I think Tom Mison will be Manhattan if he ever appears properly. But Irons is absolutely Ozy and I don't think they're being coy with it, just not making a point to spell it out because the rest of his situation is a mystery.
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Oct 24, 2019 02:40
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The polar bear was also linked to the Walt might have cosmic Powers plot thread. Hanging a major thread on a child actor who is going to age out of the show's timeline almost immediately was certainly an unforced error..
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Oct 24, 2019 02:41
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9 times out of 10 when someone accuses a show or movie of being "lazy" it's because they're too lazy to figure out how to meaningfully articulate their criticisms. imo
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Oct 24, 2019 02:54
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One factor for me watching Lost back in the day was that I'd just seen Babylon 5, where "we have a 5-year plan for the script" meant that they had a 5-year plan for the script that reached the end surprisingly intact. So, fool me, when Lost said "we know where we're going with this" I believed them.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:14
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I think the biggest lesson people should take away from Lost is to completely ignore interviews and marketing and just judge a show based on whether or not you're enjoying it. Bail on something when you start disliking it. It's a good system.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:17
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i thought lost was a dumb mystery drama on a network for olds, basically a soap opera. but then, high and drunk at a friends house the ep where they get into the hatch and find the computer and olde timey computer mainframe poo poo i was like oh gently caress ok maybe this is for me. I was... only kinda right. I'm glad I got into it when it was on. how have people seen the first couple eps already?
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Oct 24, 2019 03:20
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First six are out to reviewers, and I know we've got a couple of those here. Haven't read anything about leaks.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:26
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ohhhh... okay well can you guys just like not post even as spoilers. i feel like its just going to inevitable change the whole conversation. is this already a battle that i shouldnt be asking about?
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Oct 24, 2019 03:29
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KoRMaK posted:ohhhh... okay Yeah, my bad. What I posted was just speculation, I just wanted to preface it, but you're right.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:31
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LesterGroans posted:Yeah, my bad. What I posted was just speculation, I just wanted to preface it, but you're right.  https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap990315.html
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Oct 24, 2019 03:43
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I thought Moore used an actual photo to specify the smile on Mars, but that might be backwards.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:45
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I read the hbo compendium and I was kind of torn about the readability of rorahachs journal. It seems to say that the journal the cops got when they busted him was encrypted, is that right? But the one that was delivered to the newspaper was unencrypted? So, that means rorahach had to rewrite it so it was open source to deliver to the paper?
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Oct 24, 2019 03:52
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I was 100% had me expecting a bombing or commando assault because of “Unforgettable” playing in the background. I guess the movie is fair play for callbacks. Folks, "Unforgettable" was in the movie because it was in the comics. It was literally on the TV commercial when Comedian gets his rear end beaten.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:53
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Bruceski posted:One factor for me watching Lost back in the day was that I'd just seen Babylon 5, where "we have a 5-year plan for the script" meant that they had a 5-year plan for the script that reached the end surprisingly intact. So, fool me, when Lost said "we know where we're going with this" I believed them. Whether they have the whole story planned in advance doesn't seem to affect the quality of a show very much. Breaking Bad was winging it but they had great writers and it turned out great.
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Oct 24, 2019 04:14
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TOOT BOOT posted:Whether they have the whole story planned in advance doesn't seem to affect the quality of a show very much. Breaking Bad was winging it but they had great writers and it turned out great. Definitely. Where Lost lost me was that it presented itself as a mystery to be solved and in order to do that the clues need meaning.
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Oct 24, 2019 04:19
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I was joking on you, but I believe the polar bear was originally used to turn the wheel in the ice cave that made the island go back in time. (This is completely serious and not a joke) This is exactly what I'm talking about. Season 1 had an amazing cast of characters with some truly surprising reveals about their pasts. When season 1 ends there is so much promise for the show. And then we get polar bears powering wheel contraptions that send the entire Island back through time. It's valid for some people to think that the polar bear powered time machine is absurd and a huge letdown from what first seemed like a solid show.
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Oct 24, 2019 04:23
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The thing about breaking bad, and you get to hear this if you listen to the official podcast, is that yes they were great skilled writers navigating creating a story with threads, and knowing how to write those in a way where they didn't know the end but also didn't write themselves into a corner to resolve it as the giant machine of television churns years over years over seasons of seasons. It's waaay more skilled to be a writer that can do that than one that has a story from beginning to end before day 1 shoot.
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Oct 24, 2019 04:27
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Breaking Bad also only had to do it over half as many episodes as Lost, in roughly the same amount of time.
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Oct 24, 2019 05:20
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The discussion over the last couple of pages made me check IMDB and I found out that Lindelof wrote Star Trek Into Darkness. I enjoyed the first episode of this but I'm not sure that I can reconcile enjoying anything by someone that helped write that pile of trash.
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Oct 24, 2019 06:22
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pyrotek posted:The discussion over the last couple of pages made me check IMDB and I found out that Lindelof wrote Star Trek Into Darkness. To be fair it was Robert Orci who is the weirdo truther who also got booted from Star Trek Beyond because his script was so bad. Although the inside job poo poo was the actually interesting part of that movie. But whatever, every writer has a bad movie or two.
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Oct 24, 2019 08:02
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I feel like it's difficult to compare Breaking Bad and Lost. Breaking Bad didn't really need a pre-defined ending - the audience wasn't told to expect answers to any questions, they were there to watch the journey and see where the characters end up. They want to know what happens to Walt - not what is happening to Walt or what has happened to him. IIRC I don't think the writers ever set anything up without knowing what the outcome would be. Lost has elements of that too, but at the same time it dangles things in front of the audience. It doesn't present the story as a journey that we want to see the end of, it's a puzzle to be solved.
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Oct 24, 2019 08:39
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feedmyleg posted:Honestly, the motion comic is pretty great. Still not preferable to reading the comic, but a decent enough imitation—certainly better than watching the Snyder movie to try to sidestep the original. The biggest flaw is that they had the same guy do all the voices. If they had thrown in a few more voice actors, or even just one additional one to play the women, it would significantly improve it. A lot of the animation hasn't aged well, it cuts a few conversations for seemingly no reason (but not enough to consider it abridged), the narrator, no supplemental materials, etc. I actually don't mind the narrator, it's just like listening to an audiobook, but I get why people find it weird. But I would like to shout out the score to the motion comic, which is by far its strongest point IMO. It was composed by the same person who did the soundtrack for the PC game Outcast, which if you're an old fart you will definitely remember for basically setting a new standard for orchestral soundtracks in games even though no one played it. Just a fun aside, but the Watchmen motion comic has a legitimately great score - it's particularly strong in the Jon flashback episode IMO.
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Oct 24, 2019 08:49
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