|
Pay bands are relevant insofar as they will affect future compensation. If the company is telling you straight up that your future compensation is going to be limited, plan for that actually being the case. They may bend or break the internal rules for a good external candidate but the odds of them doing it for an employee is a lot lower.
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 21:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
Jordan7hm posted:Pay bands are relevant insofar as they will affect future compensation. If the company is telling you straight up that your future compensation is going to be limited, plan for that actually being the case. The odds are zero in my experience. The other thing is pay bands can be fair. Not always just some low numbers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 20, 2019 22:00
|
|
|
spwrozek posted:The odds are zero in my experience. Now that we're a big boy public company we use Radford pay bands. If you apply and want more than that I probably can't give it to you, because the position was opened for a specific level and you are above that. There are no hard feelings, any my only recourse is stealing from my other headcount reqs or begging for more budget after the headcount budget was already set. I'm not saying this is optimal - it's far from it. But it's typical of how many places are run once they are big enough. It's far from the first time I've experienced this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 00:50
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:Job B looks better on paper but you will hate it. It's not worth $7K and 100% remote (which if you haven't done it before you will probably quickly discover is very overrated) over Job A. Also Job A sounds way way better for networking opportunities, and networking isn't everything, it's the only thing. Why would you say that remote is overrated? I was thinking about moving away from my current area and that kind of job would allow me to do it, or at least I'd hoped.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 00:57
|
|
|
i have found a few challenges with remote working: 1) i am a social worker and being able to discuss ideas, concepts, problems etc openly with colleagues in an informal way helps me make better decisions 2) i am a social worker and stimulus of human interaction is important to my mental health/job satisfaction 3) it is hard to divide work time and space from personal time and space - it's possible but may involve costs and certainly requires a high degree of discipline 4) lots of folks make new friends at work and if you are moving to a new area you have closed off this avenue 5) your management may not trust that you are doing your job 6) you may be closed off from advancement opportunities 7) you can't network
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 16:12
|
|
|
To be clear KYOON is a consultant, not a social worker. He means that socializing with other people is important to his work. I think.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 16:34
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:To be clear KYOON is a consultant, not a social worker. He means that socializing with other people is important to his work. yes, my working style is social shameful consultant that can't communicate worth poo poo
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 16:46
|
|
|
That's how I took it. I worked remotely as well and + 1 most of that. Don't get me wrong, it's really nice being able to work remote some of the week and as needed for life but 100% remote wasn't my favorite. Oh update for the negotiation thread: I bought a car over the weekend and for the first time felt like I got a fair deal. We did good prep, figured out a strong batna and managed to not blow it in the conversations with the dealer by giving a way any key info. It was also easier having done the practice cases, more accustomed to sitting across the table. I still wouldn't call myself a "good" negotiator, like zero natural gifts, but I've improved *a ton* through practice and study. You can too!
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 16:49
|
|
|
To answer the question most succinctly, the problem with 100% remote is it severely handicaps your networking and that is career death. But if you're an ultra-introverted goon who is never going to network regardless, and you have enough self discipline to do your work every day before gaming and shitposting on the Something Awful Forums, then sure it's fine, by all means take a 100% remote job if you're happy with the money. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Oct 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
I emailed back and forth with the internal recruiter for the local company I want to interview with. I gave him a relevant time range (before and after work), and he suggested a phone interview time that was just outside of it (when I normally would get to work). I asked if we could move the time so that it would be back in the range (half an hour before work), and he agreed without any pushback. Aside from it just being more convenient for me, I felt like it was important to insist on my boundaries. Was I right to do so? I imagine that if he'd say "no, HOW DARE YOU?!" that would be a good indication I want nothing to do with that company, but am I sending a message that I am too inflexible?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 00:18
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I emailed back and forth with the internal recruiter for the local company I want to interview with. I gave him a relevant time range (before and after work), and he suggested a phone interview time that was just outside of it (when I normally would get to work). I asked if we could move the time so that it would be back in the range (half an hour before work), and he agreed without any pushback. Aside from it just being more convenient for me, I felt like it was important to insist on my boundaries. Was I right to do so? I imagine that if he'd say "no, HOW DARE YOU?!" that would be a good indication I want nothing to do with that company, but am I sending a message that I am too inflexible? No you’re fine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 00:19
|
|
|
Jordan7hm posted:No you’re fine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 00:33
|
|
|
you know how you act when you deal with clients? Like on your best behaviour, dot Is and cross ts, try to make them successful while maximizing your own value? That’s the company trying to hire you. You are the client. If at any point you don’t feel like the client, you are doing it wrong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2019 04:35
|
|
|
Jordan7hm posted:No you’re fine. Tim Thomas posted:you know how you act when you deal with clients? Like on your best behaviour, dot Is and cross ts, try to make them successful while maximizing your own value? That's a good way of looking at it, thanks! A bigger issue: previous times when I've looked for work I was very open about it with people who could be relevant references. Obviously this time I'm looking for an offer before even deciding to give notice or informing my current employer to give them a chance to match it, so I can't use people from my job, which I've worked at for several years now. Are they going to ask for references? What's the way to go about it if they do? Does it matter that their recruiter got in touch with me to begin with?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 14:56
|
|
|
How would handle this situation of negotiating for (significantly) more pay if I've already been offered the position via email and the starting salary is in writing? Some details. - The role I'm being offered is the position I personally want the most out of all the ones I'm considering. - It's about ~5k lower than where I need it to be (they don't need to know that, though). - Other positions I'm currently pursuing but am less further along in are offering what I want (low 50s). What I'm basically asking is how soon should I move to asking for a higher salary in this email exchange? I know it's not smart to mention a number, but would it be all right to say what these other roles want? I'd really like to land this job but if I can't get what I want then I'll have to walk away.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 16:45
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:How would handle this situation of negotiating for (significantly) more pay if I've already been offered the position via email and the starting salary is in writing? Some details. Why do you think they cannot know they are lower than where you need to be? If you have an offer in writing, you absolutely need to reject or counter. “Company A, thank you for your offer. Your offer is significantly less than what I’m seeing on the market, and even though this looks like a great role/company, I need at least (x% or $y) more that you are offering in order to accept. If you can amend the offer, I would be ready to accept and start of $DATE$” It would really help if you knew the range for the role for which you interviewed. Do you know that? When I changed jobs recently, I didn’t name a number. The first offer (verbal, common in my line of work to negotiate verbally and come to agreement before written offers are generated) was definitely a lowball. Less than what I could accept. I knew the range and what I was worth, and was able to counter with “thanks for the offer, but you are at least x% low on the base, and I need my OTE to start with a (digit higher than they offered).” This led to my getting higher than band for base and an OTE that representing a >20% raise. I ended up at the top end, from their initial lowball. At some point, you do need to talk numbers. Just don’t flinch first.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
Once they give you a number you kind of have to give them a number on the counter. Just saying "more" is really unhelpful.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
This particular organization did give me the salary range they're offering now at the very end of the first interview (not a specific number). But this was at the VERY end of a first interview that already went 90 minutes long, and when they didn't get back to me for the second interview for over a month, I thought it was pointless to discuss salary then. But now I've advanced my application with a couple other roles that are paying more along the lines of what I'd expect in a program management role. I'm just gonna have to tell them thanks, this is the kind of work I love to do, but based on where I'm at professionally and how similar roles are paying I need X.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:This particular organization did give me the salary range they're offering now at the very end of the first interview (not a specific number). But this was at the VERY end of a first interview that already went 90 minutes long, and when they didn't get back to me for the second interview for over a month, I thought it was pointless to discuss salary then. But now I've advanced my application with a couple other roles that are paying more along the lines of what I'd expect in a program management role. One small tweak. Don’t say you need X. Anchor above X so that when they offer you less than you ask, you end up where you want to be.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
That's what I meant in my first post by them not needing to know I need at least 5k above what they're offering. I know I'll probably have to target above that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 18:09
|
|
|
I need help because I'm so mad that I can barely see straight. I want to be clear that the obvious answer is "find a new job" and I am actively pursuing that; I have a vpn specifically so I can job hunt at work and have been applying like crazy. But until then, I want a raise. Short version is, I have worked at this company for 5 years, and for the first 4 I tried really hard and did a lot of great work for the company, outside of my specific duties. Like, I would fill in for photography and do graphic design and a bunch of other poo poo. At the time, I was justifying it as having a job that let me grow other skills (like video production, which I had never done before). After awhile I got pretty disillusioned by the company and stopped doing the extra stuff because I wasn't being recognized or rewarded for it. Anyway I asked for a promotion a year ago and got my manager's lovely old job that I didn't want, and haven't gotten a raise in 3 years. I asked my manager for a raise, and she went silent for 2 weeks and then they changed my manager. So today I sent my new manager this message: quote:Last September marks 5 years that I’ve been here, and this month is 5 months of [my current position], during which I have met/exceeded profit goals for every month. Prior to that, I managed the setup for [our other sales] and exceeded my duties with community engagement, video production, and photography/graphic design when needed. quote:I do think you’ve taken on the new responsibilities and are doing well with the goals in place, though we have purposely low goals in order to allow us to experiment, build culture, and aim at additional goals. We don’t have a specific “anniversary” compensation review plan at the company, but I understand that it can be frustrating not to have a discussion over a long time period. I want to tell him "I did that poo poo years ago and stopped because you weren't paying me, I'm not going to start again because you won't pay me. You're telling me my work prior is not worth value or merit. btw I was overqualified for a job with twice my salary" but I don't think that would go over well. He has the cards, how do I get them back?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:16
|
|
|
Stop wasting mental energy with your current job, put all your focus into getting a new job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:18
|
|
|
Anger in the workplace is not directly helpful but it is useful to inspire you to change your situation. Keep cool and get your best revenge: a better job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:25
|
|
|
Friend posted:though we have purposely low goals in order to allow us to experiment, build culture, and aim at additional goals The gently caress is this? This seems to me like they're openly admitting that the goal posts will always be moved no matter what you do. Jordan7hm posted:Stop wasting mental energy with your current job, put all your focus into getting a new job. Yup. Phone in the bare minimum while you look for something new. You fired some very clear warning shots with some very valid concerns. Fuckin'  at "let's discuss this in 6 months, if you take on even more work between now and then".
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:27
|
|
|
I don't give my work any more energy than the absolute minimum these days (and often less than that), but I figured I may as well ask for more money before I jump ship. I applied to 15+ jobs yesterday and did about 10 minutes of real work. No practical advice though?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:34
|
|
|
Friend posted:I don't give my work any more energy than the absolute minimum these days (and often less than that), but I figured I may as well ask for more money before I jump ship. I applied to 15+ jobs yesterday and did about 10 minutes of real work. No practical advice though? Keep doing what you’re doing, don’t get fired. There is no point worrying about your current job. There is no negotiation, there is no future. Thinking there is a future in any way there is a waste of mental energy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2019 21:36
|
|
|
Friend posted:I don't give my work any more energy than the absolute minimum these days (and often less than that), but I figured I may as well ask for more money before I jump ship. I applied to 15+ jobs yesterday and did about 10 minutes of real work. No practical advice, though? Don't let on you're checking out or looking to move. When you find something, give a bland statement about a better skill match or whatever and an appropriate notice period. It's not satisfying but long term you're better off sliding away than having a big moment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 01:54
|
|
|
Xguard86 posted:Don't let on you're checking out or looking to move. When you find something, give a bland statement about a better skill match or whatever and an appropriate notice period. I know that's the right advice but that's really hard to do when my response options are: - "I'm not going to play this game, give me a raise or not, and I'll go back to work" - "[LIE] okay fine I'll try to do more" I really don't see the value in a notice period though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 02:46
|
|
|
Networking is everything and burning bridges unnecessarily is a Really Bad Idea If you're called out on mailing in your duties (less likely than you'd think, it can be painful but also wonderfully liberating to have it dawn on you that, all this time, your employer has never actually given much of a poo poo about what you do) then "[LIE] okay fine I'll try to do more" and then proceed to not do anything more at all is the correct answer. 98% of the time, getting fired is actually harder than you think. Companies move slow.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 02:48
|
|
|
It's just not to burn a bridge. If you don't think you will ever deal with them again then could be fine. Keep in mind they can also bad mouth you within the industry etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 02:48
|
|
|
Friend posted:I know that's the right advice but that's really hard to do when my response options are: Having a job, even one you hate, gives you a lot of leverage when negotiating with a prospective new employer. Given what you’ve said I wouldn’t fault you for giving minimal or no notice. There are times that you can safely burn bridges, just make drat sure you’ll never need to cross it again.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 02:50
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:If you're called out on mailing in your duties (less likely than you'd think, it can be painful but also wonderfully liberating to have it dawn on you that, all this time, your employer has never actually given much of a poo poo about what you do) then "[LIE] okay fine I'll try to do more" and then proceed to not do anything more at all is the correct answer. Ha part of why I haven't looked for a new job quite as hard in the past is because I could come in and play a game on my phone for 8 hours and no one would notice; it used to be really difficult and time consuming but I figured out how to streamline things and never told them. I just need to swallow my pride I guess
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 03:28
|
|
|
Friend posted:I want to be clear that the obvious answer is "find a new job" and I am actively pursuing that; I have a vpn specifically so I can job hunt at work and have been applying like crazy. You know what you need to do. You know what the next step is. You know intellectually that wringing a raise out of your current disappointing employer won't improve anything in a lasting way. But your emotional state isn't square with what you know. You still want to eek out a win over your employer, or at least demonstrate that all that hard work being a good employee wasn't for waste. It's emotionally unsatisfying, but no amount of being a good cog will get you richly rewarded in the present business environment. You have to extend employers the same courtesy they show you: disloyal mercenary self interest.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 03:39
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:It's emotionally unsatisfying, ... Adding to this: five minutes after you walk out the door you won't care. Within a few days of starting the new job you'll find it hard to even spare a thought for them
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 03:55
|
|
|
PIZZA.BAT posted:Adding to this: five minutes after you walk out the door you won't care. Within a few days of starting the new job you'll find it hard to even spare a thought for them You say that but I still like knowing that after I gave 1 day notice at my last job, that motivated 6 other people to quit shortly after and the boss was reportedly crying in his office. Unfortunately I know that I won the lottery with that outcome. Anyway I'm going to hit the middleground tomorrow, not genuflecting but basically saying "ouch, whatever let's not talk about this anymore" and triple my job search efforts. Dwight Eisenhower posted:You know what you need to do. You know what the next step is. You know intellectually that wringing a raise out of your current disappointing employer won't improve anything in a lasting way. This is a good post and I appreciate it. My victory over them is quitting, a raise would just make it easier on life until I find a job, and I just had my 5 year anniversary so I figured it was a reasonable time to do it. Had he just said no, it would've been a lot easier to swallow. But I have learned your final point well; I will never go above and beyond expecting a reward again. I like the phrase "disloyal mercenary self interest." Anyway I just sent a screenshot of this to a coworker who is better off but still in the pits with our company and could use this advice as well. Friend fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Oct 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 04:04
|
|
|
Friend posted:I know that's the right advice but that's really hard to do when my response options are: In this case "not burning bridges" is making sure no one gets their ego bruised and decides to try and mess with you as you make your way out the door. 1 days notice attracts negative attention you don't want to deal with as you move on. There's all kinds of nasty bullshit people can pull and the first defense is staying below the radar.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 12:58
|
|
|
Besides, if you want to draw notice, why not loudly organize for a union, and see how long they take to "fire you for performance reasons"? (don't do this) ((everyone should organize though))
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 13:06
|
|
|
Update from yesterday: I targeted high and they came back with an offer of 50k.  Thanks goons.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 13:53
|
|
|
Friend posted:You say that but I still like knowing that after I gave 1 day notice at my last job, that motivated 6 other people to quit shortly after and the boss was reportedly crying in his office. Unfortunately I know that I won the lottery with that outcome. You're not ever getting this raise. Just keep your head down until you get another offer and then bounce. You don't need a "victory" over them. Once you're gone, who gives a poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 14:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
Again managed to dodge the compensation question, counter-asking whether they had a band. He said something vague about being competitive for the area, but no numbers. I did get some information about their benefits and work-life balance. Also got reminded that they moved somewhere that would make it difficult for me to work there without getting a car, so that's something to think about. Will be getting a more technical phone interview next.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2019 15:06
|
|