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Jaco has the "stink" of Dragon Ball Minus on it. I think I'm the one unabashedly supportive person towards Minus. It's fine and the original Bardock special was just whatever. But yes, Jaco itself is excellent.
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Oct 25, 2019 20:54
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Jaco is a Toryiama gag character and how you feel about that determines how you look at him. I think Toryiamas humor is actively bad so I don’t care for him
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Oct 25, 2019 21:03
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Nanigans posted:Jaco has the "stink" of Dragon Ball Minus on it. 
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Oct 25, 2019 21:21
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Jaco had an extremely good run and I'm glad he's a recurring character now. I don't get how the hell we haven't gotten an animated adaptation of that though, especially considering his semi-consistent role in Super since Resurrection "F". Minus sucks rear end but whatever, it doesn't ruin the rest of Jaco. It's completely unimportant to Jaco itself.
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Oct 25, 2019 21:22
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Blaze Dragon posted:Jaco had an extremely good run and I'm glad he's a recurring character now. I don't get how the hell we haven't gotten an animated adaptation of that though, especially considering his semi-consistent role in Super since Resurrection "F". Minus is fine. The Broly movie just slightly expanded on it. I’m not sure why people are usually fine with it there and not in the manga. CharlestheHammer posted:Jaco is a Toryiama gag character and how you feel about that determines how you look at him. Welp, no accounting for bad taste, I guess. Without the gags in Dragon Ball, what is there? Power levels and grunting? (I kid, but seriously, I don’t think just the fight scenes in this series could sustain my interest for 20+ years)
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Oct 25, 2019 22:42
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The fighting is what I like. It’s why I find the first half of Dragonball before Tao so dry. Hell as a kid I only saw up to the world tournament and i didn’t even know it was a gag show. I just thought it was an adventure show with some attempts at comedy
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Oct 25, 2019 22:48
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Nanigans posted:Minus is fine. The Broly movie just slightly expanded on it. I’m not sure why people are usually fine with it there and not in the manga. Broly was a kickass movie and it gave it a bit more emotional weight where Minus being placed in the funny gag manga made it seem more like a lazy parody of Superman. It was also just a small part of the flashback rather than the whole thing. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Oct 25, 2019 |
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Oct 25, 2019 22:48
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Jaco kinda really works for Super because he's about the only character who occupies a space between mundane Earth stuff and crazy god stuff with space stuff, so both the slice of life family shenanigans and divine shenanigans are unfamiliar to him.
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Oct 26, 2019 02:12
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Powerlevels and grunting is the only reason the show gained a worldwide following. Until the first tournament no one really gave a poo poo. Fans of Toriyama's comedy are just playing the "I liked them before they went mainstream" anime cred card. But the strength of the manga in the early days (before they sold out) were always the well-constructed fights and action scenes, not the jokes about perving on underage girls and nosebleeds.
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Oct 26, 2019 02:16
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Nanigans posted:Jaco has the "stink" of Dragon Ball Minus on it. I have no nostalgia for the Bardock special, so I have no problem with Minus. As far as I can tell, that is legitimately the only reason, in reverse, for people to have the bile that they do for it.
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Oct 26, 2019 03:42
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I have no nostalgia for the Bardock special, so I have no problem with Minus. Word. I only saw 'Bardock' as an adult, and I just thought it was an attempt to make an 'edgy' anti-hero character which is no more interesting/boring than a Superman parody. I legitimately think that Minus' rationale for Bardock doing what he does makes infinitely more sense than the special's. In the special, no one seems to truly mind working under an overtly racist monster until Bardock is shot with premonition powers. In Minus, Bardock is just the first (and last) person to be concerned that their super racist dictator all of a sudden called everyone home. It's less making Bardock into Jor-El and more like literally every other saiyan is loving stupid. Which seems pretty in-character. sassassin posted:Powerlevels and grunting is the only reason the show gained a worldwide following. Until the first tournament no one really gave a poo poo. lmao Yes. I love the obscure, little known anime "Dragon Ball" for the street cred it gives me with the anime crowd.  Of course I like the fight scenes. Hell, I love them. But fight scenes aren't enough to sustain my interest in a series. See: Bleach, Naruto. Also, if you look at Shonen Jump's weekly popularity polls, Dragon Ball was low on the list until...wait for it...the chapter that introduced Kamesennin. And the 21st tournament is 70-80% gags outside of Nam's fights and the finals, which were still pretty full of gags.
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Oct 26, 2019 05:09
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I have no nostalgia for the Bardock special, so I have no problem with Minus. People have given their reasons to dislike Minus several times in the thread already. Don't try to pretend it is a Dark_Titsmine with GT situation, Minus is heavily divisive even within the more normal parts of the fandom. Broly helps a lot by expanding upon thing Minus didn't (such as adding the final confrontation with Freeza) plus adding voices and the like to make it hit harder but overall I'm still more of a fan of the original special and I think Minus was pretty bad for a number of reasons, and you know what? I'll explain them, just so you don't get to pull that card again. Making Bardock more heroic is overall boring. The neat thing about the old special was that we had a completely different PoV character than Goku, we had a pure, proper Saiyan - a genocidal monster with no regrets who is more virtuous than the rest of the race but only because the bar is horribly low to begin with. That said, the virtue is very well shown with his care for his allies. Removing that and making Bardock a caring father and husband is kind of eh. His genocidal side is technically still there, but it's alluded to rather than shown so it has no effect whatsoever. Furthermore, it hurts Goku, who goes from being an unique individual of his race thanks to his upbringing on Earth with good parental figures, to having inherited his good traits from his abnormal parents, and thus becomes retroactively less special. This is not to say this Bardock is without enjoyable traits, but even those traits show far more in Broly than they ever did in Minus. He's still far better than Naho Ooishi's horrendous Episode of Bardock version, but can't compare to the uniqueness of Nakatsuru Katsuyoshi's Father of Goku Bardock. Toriyama's Bardock could've been interesting, had he gotten more fleshed out, but that wasn't the case, and that goes especially for Minus due to how rushed it is. Broly at least gives him his most iconic moment back (a moment that had to happen since it is flashed back to in the manga), but even there it's rushed.
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Oct 26, 2019 05:18
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You don't inherit your personality from your parents though? Goku is still Goku because he was raised by Gohan. If this were the case, explain Raditz being the piece of poo poo he is. Also, again, Bardock's brain powers in the special are so loving stupid. You can't pretend they aren't. Bardock in Minus isn't special for being a semi-decent person. In 'Broly' it's shown that (most) saiyans seem to get along with one another with the other lady at the butcher leaving with a smile to let Bardock and Gine have a private moment and all of the saiyans he runs across seeming to genuinely like Bardock and greet him so. Our only accounts of what saiyans were like were from three saiyans in total-two of which were children when their race was exterminated, hardly a reliable source. Nanigans fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Oct 26, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 05:30
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The Broly scenes with the Saiyans I thought handled it pretty well, showing the way King Cold and Freiza treated them and the tensions at play; Freiza pretty much openly enabled all their worst habits while taking advantage of them, while their leadership was too cowardly and complacent to actually take any action even when they had an incredible trump card in Broly. Bardock may not have been the only Saiyan to put two and two together about what Freiza was doing, just the only one we know of who was in the position to do anything about it. Super's development of Freiza puts a lot of things into context; that Freiza isn't someone who changes for the better or learns easily, but he changes people around him to be more like himself. Like him, the Saiyans became cruel and complacent, and fearful of the idea of someone more powerful than them even when a real threat is staring them in the face. I think there's a bit of a meta thing in how a character whose original incarnation was pretty much as a hulking, cruel monster of ridiculous strength used solely as a living weapon is presented anew as a sympathetic character who suffers from being treated that way, and opens up when treated as a person.
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Oct 26, 2019 06:03
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Blaze Dragon posted:Making Bardock more heroic is overall boring. The neat thing about the old special was that we had a completely different PoV character than Goku, we had a pure, proper Saiyan - a genocidal monster with no regrets who is more virtuous than the rest of the race but only because the bar is horribly low to begin with. That said, the virtue is very well shown with his care for his allies. Removing that and making Bardock a caring father and husband is kind of eh. His genocidal side is technically still there, but it's alluded to rather than shown so it has no effect whatsoever. Furthermore, it hurts Goku, who goes from being an unique individual of his race thanks to his upbringing on Earth with good parental figures, to having inherited his good traits from his abnormal parents, and thus becomes retroactively less special. The first two pages of Minus are literally Bardock and his buddy Leek in the middle of wiping out an alien race before getting the order to return to Planet Vegeta. And it's specifically pointed out that Bardock's concern for Goku's survival is out of character for him and a surprise to Gine.
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Oct 26, 2019 07:48
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Bardock actually comes across as LESS heroic in Minus. He doesn't brave everything and fight against Frieza's army and return home and try to tell everyone they're about to die, and then get ignored and take everything into his own hands. He doesn't get magic powers from a dying alien specifically so he can see that future happening, he doesn't have a crew he needs to avenge, and he doesn't have a big future vision of Goku defeating Frieza so he can die fulfilled, knowing his son will get justice for his race. He's killing a planet of aliens with a teammate, gets called back to Vegeta, gets a bad feeling when Leek tells him that ALL the saiyans were called back, says hi to a bunch of people, discusses the possibility they've found a new planet to conquer, says hi to his wife, and then declares that just in case, they're going to sneak their new kid off to another planet for a while, and go get him if it turns out to be nothing. That's it. There's a month afterwards where apparently he just hangs around the planet with everyone else, and then they all die. He gets to do his little stand against Frieza in the movie, which lasts about five seconds and then he's loving dead, along with everyone else. Instead of Bardock coming across as more heroic in Minus, he comes across as less of a victim of circumstance. He has the same personality, he seems to get respect on sight from fellow saiyans, and he trusts his instincts. Bardock isn't really different in Minus. It's just that different things happen to him.
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Oct 26, 2019 10:27
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I have no nostalgia for the Bardock special, so I have no problem with Minus. I wouldn't call it full blown bile, but it's me, I'm the one who likes neither Bardock. To be fair, I don't like Jor-El either. Both Goku and Superman fall characters whose birth parents we should never ever meet, implied to be unremarkable if mentioned at all to me, and neither Bardock is interesting enough to really justify breaking that. Special dislike for Bardock and Gine being the nicest Saiyans and for Bardock being the one to confront Freeza, though. So, first part of the Broly movie is like the worst of both worlds to me. Captain France fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 10:47
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Not liking him is cool, I used bile because a lot of people get, uh, kind of passionate about their dislike when it comes to this subject in a way that I find...several things at once, but none of them positive.
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Oct 26, 2019 12:03
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It’s kinda funny that while Bardock and Gine were chill saiyans, their sons both came out as assholes (Until Goku got his head injury, is that still canon?)
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Oct 26, 2019 14:55
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Retcons will do that yeah. Which is fine if only they weren’t so loving boring retcons
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Oct 26, 2019 15:03
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TheHan posted:It’s kinda funny that while Bardock and Gine were chill saiyans, their sons both came out as assholes (Until Goku got his head injury, is that still canon?) Yes. Also Gine remarked that Bardock never cared until that moment.
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Oct 26, 2019 15:37
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Well, most Saiyans clearly weren't much for long-term thinking. Pretty much just Paragus and Bardock actually got motivated by 'Hey, the most powerful guy in the universe (or close to it) has an obvious hate-on for us and the power to destroy planets...' I'm guessing since even infant Saiyans are pretty hard to kill they generally weren't too concerned about threats to them.
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Oct 26, 2019 16:49
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TheHan posted:It’s kinda funny that while Bardock and Gine were chill saiyans, their sons both came out as assholes (Until Goku got his head injury, is that still canon?) Minus very specifically shows a page of little Kakarot after meeting grandpa Gohan, and it's pretty clear that they were fighting until Gohan gave him food. Gohan remarks that if anyone else found the kid, they might have been seriously hurt. Goku's head injury and rowdy behavior is kept consistent with Minus' take on his origins. Page in question: 
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Oct 26, 2019 18:47
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StrifeHira posted:Minus very specifically shows a page of little Kakarot after meeting grandpa Gohan, and it's pretty clear that they were fighting until Gohan gave him food. Gohan remarks that if anyone else found the kid, they might have been seriously hurt. Goku's head injury and rowdy behavior is kept consistent with Minus' take on his origins. Page in question: Everyone always leaps right towards the "If Goku hadn't bumped his head he'd have been EVIL and killed them all!!" I always wanted to see "Goku doesn't bump his head... but Gohan manages to still be his father, and teaches him a sense of respect, making him more of a hybird of both possible selves."
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Oct 26, 2019 18:52
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yeah other saiyans didn’t get brain damage and managed to learn stuff just fine. Vegeta is like the Saiyanest of all Saiyans and he still just learned not to be such an rear end in a top hat the regular way eventually. Broly was abused his whole life on hellworld and still turned out basically decent if dangerously unbalanced. Bardock and Mrs Bardock seemed like pretty decent folks, the whole Saiyan conquerer thing was just the job
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Oct 26, 2019 19:02
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I wonder if Goku would have been Gohan smart if not for the brain damage.
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Oct 26, 2019 19:10
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I don't think goku got brain damage. If the years of fighting shonen villians who could bench press the planet didn't give him CTE then that fall into a gorge probably only gave him a mild concussion. Most likely he just calmed down for a bit while he was recovering and learned to appreciate Gohan
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Oct 26, 2019 19:29
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It's not said to be brain damage but it clearly is meant to be the older kind of 'brain damage' where a severe headblow drastically changes your personality
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Oct 26, 2019 19:31
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I mean, he fell down a ravine, head first, into a rock, as a toddler. Didn't he? Like, tough as Goku might be, when Bulma shot him at the start of DB it still hurt him, and taking in account he was growing tougher as he grew older, I'm gonna say that it could have been significant brain damage.
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Oct 26, 2019 20:32
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twist: goku did suffer a severe head injury, but grandpa gohan taking care of him in the aftermath was what softened him up and calmed him down as he realized someone actually cared about him
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Oct 26, 2019 20:40
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Black August posted:Everyone always leaps right towards the "If Goku hadn't bumped his head he'd have been EVIL and killed them all!!" Well with Minus in continuity, you got your wish
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Oct 26, 2019 21:54
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Burkion posted:Well with Minus in continuity, you got your wish Goku still bumps his head. Minus didn't change that.
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Oct 26, 2019 22:04
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The impact killed the part of his brain that could eventually learn empathy/responsibility. He was a normal sociopathic kid only with super strength tantrums.
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Oct 26, 2019 22:41
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StrifeHira posted:Minus very specifically shows a page of little Kakarot after meeting grandpa Gohan, and it's pretty clear that they were fighting until Gohan gave him food. Gohan remarks that if anyone else found the kid, they might have been seriously hurt. Goku's head injury and rowdy behavior is kept consistent with Minus' take on his origins. Page in question: Do you think Goku still has that armor somewhere?
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Oct 26, 2019 22:46
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I just found out that the Dragon Ball wiki insists on using the futur prefix when discussing any character in Future Trunks' timeline. Which makes it all sound very sillyquote:In Future Trunks' Alternate Timeline, Goku's house is where Future Goku passed away from Heart Virus his bedside surrounded by his wife Future Chi-Chi, family, friends, and fellow Future Z Fighters. Following the deaths of all the Z Fighters save for Future Gohan, Future Ox-King moved in with his daughter Future Chi-Chi due to the threat of the Androids and Future Chi-Chi being all alone after Future Gohan effectively moved out in order to readily confront the Androids.
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Oct 26, 2019 22:54
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TrilliontonNixon posted:Do you think Goku still has that armor somewhere? grandpa Gohan probably had it in a box or something in a closet, who knows what state that's in now
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Oct 26, 2019 23:11
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Minus seems to want to have its cake and eat it to by doing both nature and nurture. Which actually is funny because that’s one of the few changes I would be okay with
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Oct 26, 2019 23:23
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StrifeHira posted:Goku still bumps his head. Minus didn't change that. If by bumps his head, you mean "By Gohan's fist", then yeah.
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Oct 27, 2019 00:44
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Gripweed posted:I just found out that the Dragon Ball wiki insists on using the futur prefix when discussing any character in Future Trunks' timeline. Which makes it all sound very silly according to that wiki future-Yamcha has 3 seperate contradictory depictions of his death.
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Oct 27, 2019 01:09
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Stairmaster posted:according to that wiki future-Yamcha has 3 seperate contradictory depictions of his death. this seems in character
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