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Keret posted:As an aside, this seemingly deceptive simplicity of expressions is something that I've noticed running through nearly all Buddhist writing that I've encountered. I say "seemingly" deceptive because "nothing in the world is hidden." In any case, it keeps happening that I read something one time, and I think "oh, okay, that is pretty apparent." And then, months or years later, I return to the expression and, although it is still as straightforward as ever, it takes on an entirely new shade or depth of meaning for me, viewed through the lens of further experience. There is a sense of viewing from a different angle, or of "not the same person, not the same river." Great post. This particularly struck me and I can speak somewhat to the universality of the experience because it's exactly how the practice of ngondro has gone for me. They introduce a lot of concepts in early Tibetan teaching but the "read" is very superficial or academic at first. Then, slowly slowly over time the "read" transforms from something that seemed facile or readily apparent into a rich understanding that permeates all levels of a person's life. It's one thing to know that we're inseparable from deity, or inseparable from Buddha, or empty of inherent existence, or whatever. It's an entirely different thing to realize that, to know it fully and to truly understand it through experiential rather than academic knowledge. And this is the kind of thing that comes with practice, where a statement we appreciated at first becomes an extraordinarily profound thing. The founder of my lineage, Jigten Sumgon, writes in his primary work, The Single Intention, "other lineages consider that the main practice is most profound, but in this lineage we consider that the preliminaries are most profound." I like the wisdom to adequately expound on this, but my understanding is that in part this is because the preliminary practices allow us to make the main practice profound. Without the preliminaries, there's nothing profound in the main practice. Beyond that, what is profound is that which meets the level of the practitioner. Something that isn't matched to our level of development isn't profound because we can't understand it. Even the most advanced practices of a lineage are just some babble and philosophical masturbation if the student isn't realized enough. And we can see this in our own practices, which is what you're seeing here. tl;dr it owns, you own
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Oct 12, 2019 18:21
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RandomPauI posted:I think I've asked this question before, apologies if it's a repeat. How does one do meditation if one also has lifelong issues with dissociation? I've been wondering about this one. I wish I had more experience helping folks with dissociative disorders. If I may ask. what kinds of meditations have you tried lately, and what is that like? What do you imagine those meditations are like for folks without dissociative disorders?
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Oct 14, 2019 02:24
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so for the primal religions week, i included a reading on korean shamanism and managed to find a video on youtube that was an interview with the shaman, showed her conducting a ceremony, and showed a ceremony that involved butchering a pig and ripping a chicken's head off (i gave them warnings ahead of time, and warned them when the scene was coming up). afterwards the shaman said that everyone who witnessed the ceremony needed to rip a piece of paper and use it to ward off any spirits who might possess them, and after the third time watching the video (once to see if it was useful, and then once for each of the classes i teach) i suddenly went "...am i... in danger of being haunted by a spirit?" so like not really a buddhism question per se but could a taped ceremony be able to summon ghosts, and if so, would that make me more likely to be haunted? and if i do get haunted (probably won't cause i ain't noticed anything out of sorts or nothin) what are my options for exorcisms? jodo shinshu doesn't do them, do tendai? they're the closest thing to a mikkyo or shugenja in my area... like i don't THINK it's a problem, but like, i'd like to know "oh yeah just go to your local tendai temple and pay them like a few bucks and they'll exorcise the ghost for you" in case it does happen, you know? anyway, the video for reference (it is a good video, depsite some weird translation stuff going on, i THINK, don't know korean but the english seems a bit strange in parts) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_Uo4pmQ0c
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Oct 20, 2019 06:24
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Probably not in the way she's concerned about. I assume she's worried about ghosts that are attracted to death, blood eaters, rakshasas, etc. which are attracted by the act of killing itself. While it's not impossible that a spirit would be attracted by watching death like that on a video, I would consider the risk much less. Tendai will almost certainly have spirit banishing rituals, because both Vajrayana and Daoism have a lot of those. Edit: Tibetan Buddhism of course is loaded full of this stuff. I end up interfacing with it pretty often because astrological calculations factor into the rituals. In any case unless an actual problem is occurring mantra will shoo off most spirits. Before all major rituals in Tibetan Buddhism we offer a gek-tor, or "obstacle offering," which is a ritual cake we offer to local spirits then take away from where the ritual will happen. This is because some spirits don't like Buddhism or rituals so we offer them some stuff so they can leave and then nobody is bothered. I heard a story recently about a guy who died and then his spirit was possessing a woman. The spirit knew every biographical detail of the man, so they called his Lama to see what was up. The Lama asked the spirit the guy's secret name from the empowerment ritual and it couldn't answer. At this point the spirit dropped the facade - he wasn't the guy, he was just a spirit that had been with the guy his entire life. The only time he hadn't been with the guy was when the guy received the empowerments, because it got hedged out by the protection circle. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Oct 20, 2019 |
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Oct 20, 2019 13:23
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Caufman posted:I've been wondering about this one. I wish I had more experience helping folks with dissociative disorders. If I may ask. what kinds of meditations have you tried lately, and what is that like? What do you imagine those meditations are like for folks without dissociative disorders? Well, for me my thoughts run away really quickly and they're attached with overwhelmingly strong feelings. The exercise almost doesn't even matter. Yesterday my therapist and I tried a visualization exercise about talking with someone. And my mind ran from talking to someone to people dying in the span of a second. So I had to be present to listen to the exercise, and form a reasonable answer to her questions, and calm down the part that was freaking out, and try not to show the inner freaking out, and then once I had an appropriate answer in mind I knew what I wanted to say but I also couldn't get the words out. I'd imagine most people's experiences allow for acknowledging thoughts without having to worry about, say, one part getting control long enough bash my skull into the wall. But I have to stop myself and I'm not always successful. I'm really tired of this, but I can't afford to give up because that means death.
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Oct 23, 2019 15:04
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RandomPauI posted:Well, for me my thoughts run away really quickly and they're attached with overwhelmingly strong feelings. The exercise almost doesn't even matter. I assume you're in this thread and by extension involved in Buddhist stuff in the US or wherever because you're trying to address this part of yourself. And people are giving meditation advice about doing this or that thing in your mind. Here's what I say as someone who tried, and described some of that within this thread, to make something out of Buddhism and by extension create some relation of myself to Buddhism. Here's the thing about meditative practices, they are not self help, they are not a means to an end, they are barely even a way to cope, they are an end unto themselves, they're self contained. They are done to be done. They are self perpetuating practices done because someone somewhere said something would happen if people did them, because something happened when they did them. This "happening" is the trap itself. But because most people in the West generally have positive experiences, "good feelins", and because spirituality and personal psychology are so often spoken of in nearly the same breath, meditation is at best a neutral experience for most people, and in many cases positive, letting people think they are more mindful, doing better work, being more attentive, and so on. I think it's all tricks and shell games on that front and muscle memory and habit are doing most of the work that "mindfulness" thinks it's doing. Mindfulness does not create better muscle memory, it gets in the way of it. Self awareness of self awareness is like putting a big log in front of yourself and then tripping over it. It's not as if meditation is some universal area of human experience and it needs to be touched on and rediscovered and so on. They are created, artificial practices, dependent on specific personal and sociocultural predispositions to even exist. So then where this is goes is, for someone whos meditation practice brings up only pain and suicidal responses and generally rotten stuff, why do any of it? But if it becomes a choice to say "I will not meditate because it brings me pain", that's as foolish as doing it in the first place. It comes down to recognizing the personal and societal context that even brought you to consider meditation to be a meaningful activity. Same with therapy, for that matter. What do you think catharsis is? What do you think self discovery is? What can your therapist tell you about yourself? Do they know themselves better than you know yourself? Religious meditation practices (there are no secular meditation practices, they all had religious origins) promise "some other thing". I'm here to say there is no other thing. There is only the current thing. But the current thing is like the top block in the Tower of Babbel, it rests on all the things below it. But there is no way to delve deeper, there is no meditative discovery, it's all turned up on its head. The current thing is the past thing with all the hope of the future thing, but you can't get to the past thing, to the "original thing" because it's a confusion in the first place. It's like an MC Escher painting. I probably lost people there but the point is all of these methods are dependent on some understanding of structure, within time, and within successive evolution of emotional state into something deemed transcendent. But this delving into structure is the practice unto itself, the practice is action, and action is time, and time is the predicament. However the predicament manifests is the SAME predicament. Everybody is a different person but the predicament is the same. A recognizance of time, therefore of action, and therefore of forward motion based on past memory. However that manifests is immaterial. Meditative techniques are supposed to be part of a cultural framework, and if they aren't they bring confusion, and if someone is in basic pain in the first place, there's no point participating in the culture. Basic pain however it comes up is an attempt to break off from the surrounding culture without exactly knowing how or why. So just stop the "shoulds" and feel that, don't worry about other people. There's no race against time.
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Oct 26, 2019 19:43
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e: see my post immediately below
Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 20:54
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So you think that guy should just meditate better? Or what
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Oct 26, 2019 21:11
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e: a tip of the hat to long time troll ffffffffffff, previously appearing in this thread as the now permabanned obamacareshugsquad (and renamed tautologicus and most recently the worst thing is) whose previous . . . contributions . . . to this thread can be found here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3548558&userid=205163 he has since been re-permabanned, but before that he managed to prompt a a rather derisive set of replies from me before i realized who he was. not exactly my finest moment apologies to all, and to ffffffffff happy trolling, wherever you may go from here Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 21:18
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What do you mean "work", my point was there's no such thing as "work", they are self enclosed belief systems. They already work no matter what they do. I just think Buddhism and all the Indian yogic stuff that came to the West introduced an unnecessary confusion because their "hook", and every religion that cross-pollinates to somewhere else needs a hook to make sense to the new populace, the hook in the West was Psychology which began with Freud. That hook created the very idea of "working" that you're talking about here. also american pragmatism like William James. I'm no huge scholar but the basic connections are not so obscure. In the East, Buddhism has been very centered around reverence, deference, and respect for traditions, not doing something that "works" for one self. Not therefore become a trappist monk or a self help guru follower, or whatever else seems more culturally cohesive, just saying that recognizing the roots of these various disciplines amd how they came about is just as important as actually partaking in them. Not just historically, but how they viscerally appear to you as an individual and what they represent and how. That guy Paul comes in here with a problem and rather than just trying to meditate better I said step back and take a look at what you're doing. That's it fffffffffffff fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 26, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 21:29
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e: see my immediately preceding post
Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 26, 2019 21:36
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Nice post, thanks. I especially liked paragraphs 4 and 6
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Oct 26, 2019 21:39
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fffffffffffff posted:I assume you're in this thread and by extension involved in Buddhist stuff in the US or wherever because you're trying to address this part of yourself. And people are giving meditation advice about doing this or that thing in your mind. Here's what I say as someone who tried, and described some of that within this thread, to make something out of Buddhism and by extension create some relation of myself to Buddhism. Here's the thing about meditative practices, they are not self help, they are not a means to an end, they are barely even a way to cope, they are an end unto themselves, they're self contained. They are done to be done. They are self perpetuating practices done because someone somewhere said something would happen if people did them, because something happened when they did them. This "happening" is the trap itself. woah
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Oct 26, 2019 21:45
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I hope its clear that i meant hoxha barely made an actual argument just implied one, i wasnt patting myself on the back over my own post. cant ever be sure these days. i get that nobody on the internet wants to look like the first person to give a poo poo, and maybe thats a good rule for a lot of other things too, but at the same time level 2 ironic sarcasm isnt going to save someone from looking like a general monkey, it isnt 2009 anymore.
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Oct 26, 2019 22:22
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imo those criticisms would probably land better if 1) this thread was full of like secular meditators and not primarily (more or less) religious buddhists and 2) if you're going to connect Buddhist transmission into NA/Europe with a discredited psychological tradition you should have gone with Jung rather than Freud and 3) who really cares about meditation? It's important for some people in some contexts and is often indeed a good thing, but you can be a great buddhist without ever meditating. I'm pretty sure that outside of some theravada practicing countries where all young men are sent off to spend a year or two living in a monastery, the vast majority of religious buddhists never formally meditated. Much more importantly: as to randompaul's question, afaik we don't have any actual mental health experts who are also advanced meditators in this thread to speak knowledgably to his question so people have more or less held off answering it because that's a lot smarter than just throwing a bunch of theories at someone who seems like they have real potential to be harmed by mis-applied or mis-guided meditation.
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Oct 27, 2019 00:27
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in general I do think that "buddhist meditation" and buddhism in general is much less equipped to deal with mental health issues than western psychology. there is certainly a lot of scientific evidence to back up the claim that meditative techniques derived from buddhism can have beneficial effects on the brain and mind, but as herstory says one would need somewhat advanced training in both psychology and meditation to be able to give responsible advice on that beyond simple stress management. many people (including myself) got into Buddhism for reasons including mental health and i would agree that there is some risk if one views meditation as a panacea but there is no reason to think that's the case here. just because something has religious origins does not preclude it from being secular. Western science, especially physics, has many roots in religion (understand the physical world to understand the mind of God) but few people today would try to claim that science is religious.
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Oct 27, 2019 01:41
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Despite every second text on Buddhism in English seeming to be "did you know meditation can have quantifiable neurological impacts? We did a science. Also, the Dalai Lama came by our campus once" - yeah, meditation is important but it is not a 1:1 cognate to Buddhism. RandomPauI posted:Well, for me my thoughts run away really quickly and they're attached with overwhelmingly strong feelings. The exercise almost doesn't even matter. However this is my amateurish thought. I am not sure of the lead up to this. I don't share your own issue but this doesn't mean your issue isn't real. If you feel comfortable elaborating on it, it is possible Paramimetic or somebody may have better advice.
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Oct 27, 2019 03:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:imo those criticisms would probably land better if 1) this thread was full of like secular meditators and not primarily (more or less) religious buddhists and 2) if you're going to connect Buddhist transmission into NA/Europe with a discredited psychological tradition you should have gone with Jung rather than Freud and 3) who really cares about meditation? It's important for some people in some contexts and is often indeed a good thing, but you can be a great buddhist without ever meditating. I'm pretty sure that outside of some theravada practicing countries where all young men are sent off to spend a year or two living in a monastery, the vast majority of religious buddhists never formally meditated. 1) It used to be. And it seems like the go to thread for people to come in looking for "meditation advice". 2) Connect? I said "beginning with Freud", that was accurate. Yes Jung is important too. Discredited is too strong a word, they built the foundations of modern psychology. They were moved past. 3) I think the bedrock of Buddhism in the west is meditative practice of some sort. It's certainly not good works and community. It's sold as the inward looking religion. Yea sold. quote:Much more importantly: as to randompaul's question, afaik we don't have any actual mental health experts who are also advanced meditators in this thread to speak knowledgably to his question so people have more or less held off answering it because that's a lot smarter than just throwing a bunch of theories at someone who seems like they have real potential to be harmed by mis-applied or mis-guided meditation. I mean the other possibility is he likes all his drama and doesn't want it to end, and talking about how hard it all is is part of the thrill. The epic struggle of life and death every day. Not liking it is part of liking it. I don't have anything to say about the boring cats in here, but that post especially caught my attention. Anyway, yea, meditation good, therapy good, medication good, just carry on. Whatever quote:Despite every second text on Buddhism in English seeming to be "did you know meditation can have quantifiable neurological impacts? We did a science. Also, the Dalai Lama came by our campus once" - yeah, meditation is important but it is not a 1:1 cognate to Buddhism. Every activity has quantifiable neurological impacts. Meditation is basically by definition reveling in activity. Yes at the end of the day there are people like Qang Duc the monk who self immolated himself over the Vietnam war, and many others for various political causes, and he burnt to death without a single bit of pain on his face, but if the end result of his meditative absorption practice was to kill himself for a political cause then maybe that says something. I used to think that was impressive, and I still do in a way, but now I think he psyched himself up to go through a lot more trouble than he had to. It's possible to sidestep all of that bullshit without any detriment at all to ones life and perceived destiny and all that stuff. Looks like i failed at tying up loose ends. I share more of an affinity with RandomPaul than I do anyone else in this thread, even if I don't understand his thought processes. He's totally cogent about his absolute maelstrom at the very least. It's important to use your own words even in your darkest hour. I can also see that Qang Duc felt all the pain of his countrymen dying and felt compelled to do something, and no one can ever fault him for that. So that wasn't the point there. There isn't some other way. I'm not sure what it is I wished for him. To walk the fine line, maybe. It's possible to wonder what you would have done if you were Qang Duc, but then you remember that circumstances make you almost completely, and you never could have been him anyway. -edit and you probably would have done the same exact thing, that's the pull of destiny fffffffffffff fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Oct 27, 2019 |
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Oct 27, 2019 06:08
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fffffffffffff posted:I mean the other possibility is he likes all his drama and doesn't want it to end, and talking about how hard it all is is part of the thrill. The epic struggle of life and death every day. Not liking it is part of liking it. That's harsh. I had to check to see if I posted here before this year. I came here in 2013 to ask about SGI Buddhism. They have a chapter in my hometown. In February 2016 I asked for advice about meditation. I but didn't think to check if I had asked because what were the odds this thread would be that old? And this September I came back to ask about meditation because people keep saying that meditation and mindfulness are big parts of the answer. But it's generally the same pat advice about breath work and just let the thoughts go. The thread fell off my radar, I checked it again, saw the question from last week, and I answered a question. Today I saw this thread full of posts, decided to get caught up, and...well, all of this.
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Oct 27, 2019 06:29
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RandomPauI posted:That's harsh. I had to check to see if I posted here before this year. I think you're doing alright. I wasn't trying to put you down. If you can stay cogent through the maelstrom then you're doing alright. But I don't see your problems more clearly than you do or anything. I just thought I had something to say to it. Nothing big
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Oct 27, 2019 06:34
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No-one in this thread knows about your personal life experiences, history, internal subjective experience, or anything other than the words you have written. Most of the posters seem to have tried to be careful in offering advice. Mental health and working with peoples perceptions of self and reality is really complex and nuanced. For one person a meditative practice about grounding and getting into the body might be pretty life-changing, for another that will dump them straight into the abuse they have suffered. I have read that some vajrayana practices described subjective experience appear similar to dissociative states. I have absolutely no idea of how true that is. There are many many many ways to work with experience, its probably best to look into a range of approaches. If someone tells you their path is the correct and only one for you, probably not the place to start. My own personal opinion is that often subtler and less direct approaches and explorations can yield surprisingly large changes over time. Also if you are working with someone the interpersonal relationship massively influences the outcome. This has been statistically shown with psychological interventions as well as medication. I assume that the same is true of a meditation instructor, guru, or a poster on the internet. I dont know your situation or assume to make suggestions, but I felt like acknowledging both your situation/you because frankly thats the most appropriate response. Good luck  I guess the above applies equally to RandomPaul and fffffffffffffffffff. Perpetual Hiatus fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Oct 27, 2019 |
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Oct 27, 2019 07:06
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I dont understand why it was an appropriate response but yea sure why not
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Oct 27, 2019 09:52
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listen; 南無阿弥陀仏 that's all i have to say about all this
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Oct 27, 2019 10:44
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I figure now is as good a time as any to ask this. Why do Buddhists concern themselves with politics? In this wold of suffering and impermanence, why be concerned with something as materialistic as statecraft? I'm well aware there have been Buddhists involved in politics in every country where Buddhism had any power but it still confuses me. There's nothing to gain from trying to establish a political order in a world of unending instability and pain. The best thing we can all do is retreat from the world .
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Oct 27, 2019 13:16
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NikkolasKing posted:I figure now is as good a time as any to ask this. Because there's no rule that says Buddhists have to abstain from politics and complete removal from all worldly concerns is not so easily done by making a conscious choice to do it..."just when i thought i was out they pull me back in" kinda thing. And really, nearly every Buddhist country has been a huge hotspot flashpoint for conflict in the past 100 years so its hard for people to even want to remove themselves from events when they so directly affect everyone they know and care about. Tibet, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Burma, all these places. India's minority Buddhist population as well. No reason to hold them to a standard they don't hold themselves to, I don't see it as hypocrisy personally Being a buddhist isn't some fast track to being a superman. It gives structure to an ethical life within the social order.
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Oct 27, 2019 13:42
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NikkolasKing posted:I figure now is as good a time as any to ask this. Like you could extend this same criticism to most charitable works, but while it is not as central a point as it is in some other religions, Buddhist organizations have done huge amounts of charitable work, much of which went somewhat farther than "basic religious education."
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Oct 27, 2019 19:54
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It's also worth pointing out that no sect of Buddhism expects every Buddhist to enter into the Sangha. Lay Buddhism inherently means that there will be Buddhists in politics, and it's only natural that they would seek out guidance from the Sangha. Further, while there are definitely hardcore monastic groups in the middle of nowhere, most bhikkhu/bhiksu or bhikkhuni/bhiksuni are part of local communities, making political statements an inevitably.
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Oct 27, 2019 20:07
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NikkolasKing posted:There's nothing to gain from trying to establish a political order in a world of unending instability and pain. The best thing we can all do is retreat from the world . Retreating from the world precludes you from acting compassionately towards the creatures in it. Only in total solipsism would such a philosophy be useful. Desiring political or material gain is clearly bad, but using the world you live in to practice non-harming never is.
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Oct 27, 2019 20:35
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Having some form of political representation seems like a good idea for even the most reclusive monastics. Noone lives in complete isolation and being powerless and subject to the whims of a government that may decide they don't like you or decide they would like your monastery and all your stuff seems like a good route to having your tradition extinguished
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Oct 27, 2019 21:11
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http://www.nembutsu.info/indshin/readings/EB-TakagiKenmyo.pdf namo amida butsu
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Oct 27, 2019 23:41
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NikkolasKing posted:I figure now is as good a time as any to ask this. I think when you look back historically at some of the compromises and adjustments made to sangha life the answer is simply because these activities preserve the existence of the sangha, which propagates the dharma which is the end unto itself. One of the main reasons the Buddha is celebrated is not just for discovering the dharma (which is timeless and discovered anew eternally, according to Buddhist cosmology) but teaching it in spite of how the dharma could motivate someone not to (which becomes a point of doctrinal focus for the Mahayana). No one celebrates pratyekabuddhas because retreating from the world is not the ultimate point of buddhahood. Arguably the early arhats were not concerned with buddhahood, but that changes with spread of Mahayana and Buddhists over time and into today are v much concerned with buddhahood. When you look into the history of stupa cults and how the sangha developed, and what the role of laity is supposed to be the point is to preserve the sangha so that it is around to propagate dharma. And so all sorts of things are justified in that they preserve the sangha so that it may propagate the dharma. So for an example, Huge sections of vinaya law concern financial instruments like loans and rules for monks lending and banking, and this is always justified because it helps support viharas/monasteries. Ostensibly those engaged in retreating from the world would not concern themselves with banking, but the sangha is engaged in dharma propagation which cannot be done if everyone retreats. If the Buddha retreated in such a way, no Buddhism etc. A lot of times the idealization we have for what makes a monk a “good Buddhist monk” doesn’t synch up with the reality of monastic and religious institutions or the Buddhist religion out in the wild.
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Oct 28, 2019 01:03
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reading over my answer my response felt a little oblique so I just wanted to clarify. quote:There's nothing to gain from trying to establish a political order in a world of unending instability and pain. The best thing we can all do is retreat from the world . If I had to go for a more doctrinaire answer I’d say that yes, this is a world of unending instability and pain, first noble truth dead to rights. But I think to then stop and say “therefore retreat from the world” is to stop at the first noble truth. If we progressed through the dharma like a Buddhist might try to the second truth would identify a reason for pain we feel from the world’s instability and that is our attachment to it. And we address this pain not by a total retreat from the world but by addressing our attachment to it from within the world, which we begin to do by following the Buddha’s dharma. From there I’d say that when you look at even some of the oldest Pali sutras a major thrust and point of the dharma is not just that it is the path head to nirvana but just as importantly it can reduce suffering in this life, and that this can be a goal worth pursuing apart from (but even so still In service to) nirvana as the ultimate end. And so a Buddhist would engage in politics for the simple reason that making this life better for others is also a noble goal and that compassion would motivate us to do so. Yiggy fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 28, 2019 |
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Oct 28, 2019 01:46
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Another thing worth noting is that once one has achieved enlightenment there's the expectation that you'll come back to help others along the path. It isn't just "get enlightened -> nirvana." There's actually more steps in between; according to the cosmology there are people who became buddhas but vowed to keep coming back until everything is enlightened. As those along the path endeavor to reduce suffering getting involved in politics is part of that. One of the snags with politics in the real world is that power exists. There are those that are attracted to power so they can abuse it. That is something worth resisting as people abusing power does tend to lead to unnecessary suffering. There are also those who might like to stamp out the teachings for one reason or another. Based on that alone it's useful to get involved in politics in at least that sense so that the teachings don't get buried. For lay and even monastic practice the path is just that; a path. The goal is to sever attachments but absolutely nobody manages to do it all at once. Getting some of the things right is better than getting none of the things right so if you can't detach from politics yet don't worry about it. As for monastic organizations part of the idea there is that monks should usually be farther along than the laity. This isn't always true as nothing is perfect; people who are not monks can become enlightened while it's also possible for a bad person to put on the right mask long enough to weasel their way into an organization. This is a messy, imperfect world so any religious organizations are going to be messy and imperfect. That does not make them bad.
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Oct 28, 2019 19:23
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quote is not edit 
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Oct 28, 2019 23:22
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Here's something I've always found kind of odd- tons of Buddhist teachers, contemporary and historical, were lay practitioners, and especially in Mahayana traditions integration with society seems to be considerably more common than extreme seclusion. From a pragmatic view that makes a lot of sense- very few people have the interest and temperament to spend the majority of their life in dedicated practice. But in Buddhist philosophy human rebirth is incredibly rare and requires tremendous accumulation of merit- doesn't that imply that every waking moment you exist in an incarnation that is both capable of sapient cognition and of experiencing suffering but don't practice is a waste? Obviously most people don't have that opinion- even among monastic practitioners there are dudes who spend the bulk of their adult lives on administrative tasks, fundraising, and other stuff that indirectly benefits their community but doesn't advance their personal practice. So why is it that people who take their practice seriously but don't or can't dedicate their entire life to it singlemindedly aren't walking around feeling rotten about the wasted opportunity?
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Nov 3, 2019 08:21
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because amida vowed that all beings regardless of karma who call his name with a humble heart will be reborn in his pure land, where the practice of buddhism can take place for all beings how can you practice buddhism in late capitalism? when every single transaction causes you to break the precepts? when every article of clothing you wear, every piece of food you eat, anything you purchase, has been made using more or less slave labor? when every time you spend money, you use a bank that is either funneling money for governments that murder their own citizens or to businesses that are killing the planet? when any action you take results in benefiting from the suffering of others? regardless of how well one can meditate under late capitalism (not very; we’re atomized individuals, and even monastics worry about making ends meet or losing their monastery), how can you rise above such negative karma? what buddha or bodhisattva can you attach yourself to that will overcome this? only by amida’s grace can we be reborn in his pure land. he vowed to allow all beings who call on his name, regardless of their karma, to be reborn in his buddha land, to do the hard work of becoming a buddha. the only path forward.
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Nov 3, 2019 08:36
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Omi no Kami posted:So why is it that people who take their practice seriously but don't or can't dedicate their entire life to it singlemindedly aren't walking around feeling rotten about the wasted opportunity? A human incarnation is precious, but you have to take the long view here, I figure
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Nov 3, 2019 09:04
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Because it isn’t a wasted opportunity. A human is very fortunate. A human that hears the dharma is more fortunate. A human that practices still more so. A human that devotes themselves to practice even more so. Do what you can, try to prevent suffering, and maybe the next time around your circumstances will be more conducive to becoming enlightened The above isn’t intended as a cop out for not practicing or whatever. I really mean “do what you can,” but also know that if you’ve got a family depending on you or one of a million other good reasons, maybe going forth (or otherwise devoting your life to practice) isn’t the right thing to do Edit: yeah this: Nessus posted:A human incarnation is precious, but you have to take the long view here, I figure
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Nov 4, 2019 01:31
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Most Mahayana traditions treat the return to society/the world/the marketplace as one of the later stages of practice. It ranges from fully formalized and deeply ritualized to just a strong encouragement to find a way of living according to the values and precepts one finds meaningful. At least in mahayana the concept of returning to society to not try to live separately is pervasive. The 10 oxherding pictures are a particularly good example of this. Also there's some zen commentary that described malnourished overly-austere ~seekers~ showing up all sad and earnestly misguided, and then when they're finally ready to go you can tell because they're fat, drunk, a bit stupid, and laughing more. IIRC Jack Kornfield (I think?) wrote a decent book on the subject called 'After the Ecstasy the Laundry,' At the end of the day, spending a lifetime secluded in solitary practice is probably a waste of time at best and a physically and mentally dangerous indulgence at worse for the vast majority of people. Turning away from the distractions of society is a tool to make practice easier, not the end goal. Besides, people already struggle to integrate multiyear retreats and with reintegration afterwards. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 10:13
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randomly decided to read my favorite essay on buddhism, "my socialism" by takagi kenmyo https://vocaroo.com/i/s1sXaeGvSasJ here's a pdf; http://www.nembutsu.info/indshin/readings/EB-TakagiKenmyo.pdf anyway what amazes me is how much i missed the first few times i read this. there's a lot more there than simply "oh hey nembutsu is for everyone, including commoners." it also includes a call for social reform from the bottom up, based on the idea that through the nembutsu and one's rebirth in the pure land, one should follow the buddha's instructions. i thought the whole "pure land on earth" thing was exclusive to taiwanese pure land buddhists if only he hadn't killed himself after being imprisoned for life in the high treason incident... this is the beginning of a buddhist theology of liberation, and the fact that it was born in a colonialist country is impressive. but maybe it's for the best; who knows what his opinion on korean indepdence was. kotoku shusui, who he mentions in this essay (whose acquaintance ironically implicated him in that incident), saw national Independence movements as diversions from the goal of a global workers revolution, which led to korean and chinese revolutionary figures (such as sun yat sen) avoiding japanese leftist organizations and meeting with each other instead (before the imperial government made such meetings more difficult) anyway the last couple days of class reminded me of why i was starting to think "maybe i should do a phd and do this for a living" and part of today's class was talking about late 19th early 20th century national independence movements in asia so it reminded me of this essay
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Nov 8, 2019 01:28
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