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WhatEvil posted:What do you do in your house at night or when it isn't sunny, then? so imagine that but as well as it being dark at night it's also half-dark in every weather condition except blazing sunshine, and also you've got to install infrastructure and spend time and money keeping it clean and well-maintained the whole point of this discussion is that "we can still get natural light underground" is a statement which, while technically not untrue, requires a shitload of asterisks and fine print
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Oct 27, 2019 21:06
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Failed Imagineer posted:nobody is advocating that you terminally obtuse numbskull Some of us thread regulars do actually. Vitamin P posted:The NHS would legitimately be unsustainable under the conference free movement motion that luckily Abbott has nixed. Show your working.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:06
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Pilchenstein posted:That caregiver robot looks like if Michael Gove was a cyberman. God drat don't make me think about Michael Gove cybering 
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Oct 27, 2019 21:07
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Braggart posted:God drat don't make me think about Michael Gove cybering fingers flopping jointlessly accross an iphone screen, a faint reflection of gove looking angry
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Oct 27, 2019 21:10
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Ratjaculation posted:We love trains moron
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Oct 27, 2019 21:11
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Vitamin P posted:My understanding of the motion was that people would have equal access to NHS services regardless of residency or visa status. This is an even purer strain of madness. Is the NHS underfunded or over-used? You think Americans who can't afford health insurance are going somehow afford to come over here, gravely sick and knowing no one, then spend months having chemotherapy? And if they did, that would be a bad thing because it would undercut the competitiveness of the British film industry?
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Oct 27, 2019 21:11
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forkboy84 posted:Show your working. Last page, if I've understood the motion correctly then there isn't much working to show it's just obvious, certainly enough that the 'no this can actually work' working would be on your side. Do you think Dianne Abbott just really hates foreigners and the most vulnerable immigrants to our country or something? Like she's fudging the numbers because she just loving loves nativism?
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Oct 27, 2019 21:11
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Julio Cruz posted:so imagine that but as well as it being dark at night it's also half-dark in every weather condition except blazing sunshine, and also you've got to install infrastructure and spend time and money keeping it clean and well-maintained 2000 lux is about as low as it gets when overcast, I'm sat in a room with a window out to an overcast sky right now - it's currently raining here and 4pm, and it's under an awning so not even receiving direct light, and it's still lighting my room up better than the artificial lights here. Basically, natural light is really friggin bright even when it's not at it's brightest. At *worst* case it's still 10x brighter than what's recommended for a warehouse environment and at the same level that's recommended for an industrial general assembly area, for comparison. Any time the natural light from a sun tube or whatever is bad, the natural light in the rest of your house is also going to be bad, compared to what it's like when it's sunny. Also bear in mind that we perceive light (and also sound) on a logarithmic scale - so things have to be receiving 10x more light for us to perceive them as twice as bright. So 100k lux for direct sunlight and 2000 lux for overcast sounds like an enormous difference, but it's nowhere near as big in terms of what we perceive as the numbers might suggest. All this is really just to say: You can still get a decent amount of light from a light tube, even when it's overcast. It's still worth having one.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:14
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OwlFancier posted:Technically you are still below ground, because there is a planet worth of ground between you and the sun.  Apparently China is trying to do a sequel. WhatEvil posted:What do you do in your house at night or when it isn't sunny, then? Julio Cruz posted:so imagine that but as well as it being dark at night it's also half-dark in every weather condition except blazing sunshine, and also you've got to install infrastructure and spend time and money keeping it clean and well-maintained
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Oct 27, 2019 21:15
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Vitamin P posted:Last page, if I've understood the motion correctly then there isn't much working to show it's just obvious, certainly enough that the 'no this can actually work' working would be on your side. I think she's saying it because she thinks this country is xenophobic and believes in notions like that Britain is "full up" and she wants Labour to win the next general election.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:19
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Carborundum posted:This is an even purer strain of madness. Is the NHS underfunded or over-used? You think Americans who can't afford health insurance are going somehow afford to come over here, gravely sick and knowing no one, then spend months having chemotherapy? And if they did, that would be a bad thing because it would undercut the competitiveness of the British film industry? There's no madness son. The NHS is currently underfunded, if it became the IHS then it would become massively overused. And yes, Americans would be loving stupid to not come to the UK to get free healthcare  you may not realise how brutal the US system is but yes, paying for a flight and suffering that long flight is absolutely something huge numbers of Americans would do, and look at the WHO stats for the NHS we would be getting the wealthiest people from the majority of the world buying those flights too. And brainlet my point was that UK people using the NHS is less costly because they've paid into it with their loving taxes and the downflow benefits we get from their continued health. The film industry is an extremely obvious specific example not the entire point don't be obtuse.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:23
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forkboy84 posted:I think she's saying it because she thinks this country is xenophobic and believes in notions like that Britain is "full up" and she wants Labour to win the next general election.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:26
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forkboy84 posted:I think she's saying it because she thinks this country is xenophobic and believes in notions like that Britain is "full up" and she wants Labour to win the next general election. Feel free to assume the worst of her if that makes you happy I guess? but before you slag off my girl Abbott show your own working on why the well-meaning but legitimately impossible motion she's against is actually entirely possible and anyone who thinks otherwise is actually motivated by xenophobia.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:28
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Vitamin P posted:And yes, Americans would be loving stupid to not come to the UK to get free healthcare You do understand that you can't just show up at a hospital and ask for a kidney transplant, right?
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Oct 27, 2019 21:30
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WhatEvil posted:2000 lux is about as low as it gets when overcast, I'm sat in a room with a window out to an overcast sky right now - it's currently raining here and 4pm, and it's under an awning so not even receiving direct light, and it's still lighting my room up better than the artificial lights here. Basically, natural light is really friggin bright even when it's not at it's brightest. At *worst* case it's still 10x brighter than what's recommended for a warehouse environment and at the same level that's recommended for an industrial general assembly area, for comparison. I'm not arguing against light tubes for (ware)houses, I'm arguing that it's inaccurate to say "living underground you'd have plenty of light because light tubes" Guavanaut posted:Sounds like you're describing rooflights. sort of but instead of a bulb that lasts a decade and is easy to replace you've got a big lens that you need to keep unobstructed on the surface and a load of reflective pipe that needs to be kept clear of stuff like mould and condensation, both things that come easily to underground spaces
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Oct 27, 2019 21:32
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you didn't address my previous point so let me expand on it a little if you're going to spout fash talking points in here you can gently caress the gently caress off you odious oval office
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Oct 27, 2019 21:33
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WhatEvil posted:We'll all live in an enormous mobile megacity which travels around the equator at 460m per second so that it can be the same time of day forever. Inverted World by Christopher Priest 1973/4 quote:In the novel, an entire city and its residents travel slowly across an alien planet on railway tracks. The city's engineers must work to lay fresh track for the city, and pick up the old track as it moves. Many people are unaware that the city is even moving. A crisis ensues as its population decreases, the people grow unruly, and an obstacle looms ahead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_World
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Oct 27, 2019 21:33
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Carborundum posted:You do understand that you can't just show up at a hospital and ask for a kidney transplant, right? I'm aware that waiting lists for some procedures, even just serving UK residents, are already very high yes. Not sure that actually goes against Abbotts point.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:36
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I don't even get NHS treatment paid for by the British taxpayer if I come to the UK, and I'm a British citizen resident in the EEA. I have an EHIC card and if I get treatment in the UK then Norway will ultimately cover the costs. I don't think non-residents Americans are suddenly going to be doing health tourism just because Kiwis are allowed to vote. e: vvv Kim Stanley Robinson did something similar in 2312 too, with the Mercurian city of Terminator that moves constantly on rails to stay in the part of the planet currently not either frozen or literally boiling. big scary monsters fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Oct 27, 2019 |
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Oct 27, 2019 21:39
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Inverted World by Christopher Priest 1973/4 Yeah when I typed that I immediately though "This has already been done as a concept, for sure". Cool though, thanks.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:40
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Selection meeting outcome: Paula Barker has been chosen as the candidate in Liverpool Wavertree (Luciana Berger's seat). Apparently she's a Corbyn supporter.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:43
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Julio Cruz posted:you didn't address my previous point so let me expand on it a little You haven't addressed that people do actually pay into the NHS and it does have an economic benefit to the country, or that patients aren't actually money-soaks or scroungers or whatever, no anyone that doesn't agree with your smoothbrain posting must be a fash oval office even if it's literally Dianne loving Abbott. Post why it's actually remotely possible to have IHS, or post how I've misunderstood the conference motion, otherwise just bugger off yourself emptyposter.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:43
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Vitamin P posted:There's no madness son. The NHS is currently underfunded, if it became the IHS then it would become massively overused.  a fairly recent development? Like, before one of the recent tory oval office governments anyone from anywhere could rock up and be treated?Also, the key word you used is "underfunded" - imagine if we funded it properly? Also also, gently caress off with this britain first horseshit you oval office 
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Oct 27, 2019 21:44
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Vitamin P posted:I'm aware that waiting lists for some procedures, even just serving UK residents, are already very high yes. Not sure that actually goes against Abbotts point. Yes, the waiting lists are the only reason for that. If you go on a Tuesday when they're not busy you can just rock up to the desk they'll saw your leg off there and then. And I guess commuting every week from Fuckstick Lousiana to Bristol to pick up your insulin makes complete sense as well. My bad. Guess I just don't think things through. Obviously we've got to keep our competitive advantage in making period dramas. .
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Oct 27, 2019 21:45
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Vitamin P posted:You haven't addressed that people do actually pay into the NHS and it does have an economic benefit to the country, or that patients aren't actually money-soaks or scroungers or whatever, no anyone that doesn't agree with your smoothbrain posting must be a fash oval office even if it's literally Dianne loving Abbott. quote:Free movement, equality and rights for migrants, are socialist values and benefit us all.
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Oct 27, 2019 21:48
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Vitamin P posted:You haven't addressed that people do actually pay into the NHS and it does have an economic benefit to the country, or that patients aren't actually money-soaks or scroungers or whatever, no anyone that doesn't agree with your smoothbrain posting must be a fash oval office even if it's literally Dianne loving Abbott. well it's just that "immigrants are going to ruin the NHS" is straight out of the BNP/Farage playbook maybe next you'd like to do an MSPaint of a big line of immigrants just waiting for the chance to take advantage of our glorious British GP appointments and mental health consultations and that'd definitely make your point clear
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Oct 27, 2019 21:55
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If you really care about the NHS, once you stop working and your taxable income falls you'll quietly move somewhere else and live out the most medically costly years of your life at the expense of Johnny Foreigner. That's why there are so many Great British patriots on the beaches of the Costa Blanca.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:01
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big scary monsters posted:The motion is quite short so why not just read it yourself and see if you can find the bit that says the stuff you're imagining. Note in particular the repeated use of the words "migrants" and "residents" rather than, say, "tourists". See this is why I kept saying 'if I'm understanding the motion right".
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Oct 27, 2019 22:05
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Trigger warning I write about my mental health issues in the large footnote below, which include extreme depression, familial psychological abuse and thoughts of suicide. goddamnedtwisto posted:Balfron megapost pt. 2 - part 1 is here That was extremely interesting and informative, thank you  And so was part 1 in case I forgot to say anything at the time  One part that stood out to me is: quote:We all point the finger at Thatcher and Right to Buy as the thing that destroyed working-class communities up and down the country, but I would say that Blair’s huffing of the private sector’s farts had just as much to do with it, at least in areas like Poplar where things were mostly not broke and really didn’t need fixing. While admittedly it was Thatcher who bought in the legislation that allowed councils to sell off their housing stock to the private sector, it was Blair that made it almost impossible for them *not* to sell. By cutting off their access to central government funds for large-scale capital expenditure projects, long-term maintenance of a housing stock rapidly approaching half a century old became impossible. u fuckin wot m8? So Right to Buy, a flagship Thatcher policy and one of the worst in terms of longterm effects on this country, was exacerbated by New Labour's removal of funding which forced councils to sell off their housing stock. That is literally a strategy knowingly used by the Tories to reduce council housing stock*, and all publicly owned assets. Make the council desperate so they sell assets off cheap and your rich pals can swoop in and start cranking up rents. This has had devastating effects on every aspect of UK society, increasing inequality and poverty, ruining lives and creating ghettoes and slum accommodation ruled by evil cunts like Fergus Wilson, who decided to evict Asians from his hundreds of houses because he is racist about curry. It boils my blood that we've never had a break from this poo poo even under a nominally Labour government. New Labour really was somewhere between a Labour government and a Tory one. It did some good things but I swear the overall effect was like giving you your favourite breakfast cereal but pouring liquid poo poo into the bowl instead of milk. And also murdering a million middle easterners on our behalf, but that doesn't fit into my analogy. Also isn't there a theory that people become Tory voters partly as a result of buying their council house either to live in themselves or especially to rent out? Join the landlord class, immiserate a few people for your individual gain and become a class traitor as you try to justify this to yourself! And then your new class interests encourage you to vote Tory because you're now well off and the only interaction you have with the poor is when you take rent off them. You start to regard them as a nuisance you'd rather not have to deal with, messing up your property and demanding that you keep it fit for human habitation or some bullshit like that. Can't they just stop complaining and make something of themselves like you did? And even if you're taking in lodgers and living in the property so you have an incentive to keep the place reasonably nice, you've just given up your privacy and ensured your housemates are people who fear and resent you and can never interact with you equally, so they're going to avoid you and not be straight with you because you have the power to make them homeless on a whim** (trigger warning applies here!). Clearly it's worse for the lodger who has to tiptoe around their landlord all the time, but even for the landlord it's not very pleasant living with people who dislike them. So the landlord comes to resent the tenants and to view them as a source of money rather than a person, and a lovely dynamic tends to become worse over time. And as so often, the person who has the power to change things benefits from them staying the same, while the person who gets the lovely end of the stick has no agency in the matter. But it sucks for the landlord and tenant both (to very different degrees), which is what I've come to expect from capitalism. Having unfettered power over people turns you into a Tory because you stop viewing them as people. Good job continuing that process, Tony! _____________________________________________________ *"Social housing breeds Labour voters." Allegedly said to Nick Clegg by a senior Tory minister during his time in the Coalition Government. Of course,  is a liar, but I don't see why he would lie about that myself, and it's very believable that Tory politicians would think that. They think we're scum, but we know they're scum.**Trigger warning bit below! This has literally happened to me because the landlord decided I had stolen his camera. All the other lodgers thought I hadn't done it, his own family thought I hadn't done it, I didn't even know the rear end in a top hat had a camera, and it later turned out that he had mislaid it. But by then I was gone before his notice required me to go because every time he looked at me the hatred in his eyes told me he was a ticking time bomb. At that point I was really struggling with mental health issues and was unemployed so I moved back in with my parents for a bit. Because there were no spare bedrooms I slept on the floor of my mother's home office, but was kicked out at 8am sharp every morning so she could continue her usual routine of Facebook and online scrabble on her laptop. You know, a portable computer that you can use anywhere? So I had nowhere to consider my own space for the whole day. Nowhere in that house where I didn't feel I might be harassed at any time, and all I could do was shut down and become unresponsive until they went away, because showing any spirit was unacceptable when they were being so kind putting me up and feeding me. There was nowhere I could relax even for a moment. I used to go to a local tiny green space just to get away from my parents and lie down with my eyes closed to shut everything out. Sometimes I would cry, and always I would dread going back. My parents constantly berated me (my sister told me she thought they treated me like poo poo) and 'encouraged' me to get a job by any means they could think of. ("We're trying to galvanise you into making something of your life." - actual quote from my mother.) My father even once threatened me with eviction because he was pissed off at me for some slight that didn't even make sense. One of those ones where the real anger comes from your target daring to defend themselves. I considered that the writing on the wall and was gone within 2 days. I contacted a previous employer and a previous landlord to submit myself to their exploitation again because anything, anything was better than my current situation. I didn't have the energy to look for anything good, so I just took what I knew would be available and recommenced eating poo poo on both counts. It was still an improvement. During this time living with my parents I began having suicidal thoughts that return to me to this day, though infrequently because 5 years on I'm doing much better. I'm happier than I've ever been (which in hindsight was not a high bar to clear), and getting even happier as time goes on. I'm healing, and figuring out how to live well, and coming to terms with everything from my past that's been hurting me for so long. This last year has been the best for personal growth, in large part because I was diagnosed with ADHD and autism and reflecting on that helps massively with explaining my lovely life. In short, I've always been at the mercy of authority figures who did not understand me and thought I was lazy and arrogant, and that I was acting out and taking the piss on purpose (a very common judgement people ignorantly make of those with ADHD and autism - either or both). Every single person with power over me treated me like a feckless annoyance. That fucks you right up, let me tell you. I no longer accept that kind of treatment (though of course sometimes I still have to. Hello landlord! Hello DWP!) but I didn't even realise things could be different until I was able to take some space and breathing room. And all the support I got helped to make that possible, from wonderful friends and my amazing sister (she despises our parents too and has been hurt by them just as badly as me). I'm now signed off work and receiving Universal Credit and PIP for almost a year now. For the PIP, holy gently caress I was lucky not to be rejected and have to appeal - that would have wrecked me even harder than the process already had. I've seen it hurt good people really badly. And with my new-found free time and reduced stress I'm incredibly productive in ways that don't make anyone any money. I study and teach music as a volunteer at a mental health support centre, I'm learning to code computer games and to draw and a whole host of other things. This potential was always within me, but always frustrated by attempts to micromanage me and direct what I used it for, because my own choices weren't considered good enough. Everything had to be looked at as a potential career, and everything new I became interested in was disappointing because it was seen as me giving up on something else. And trying to focus on something you find incredibly pointless and stupid is hard enough even without throwing in ADHD and autism. I need freedom to flit between projects, and I cannot force myself to stick to one thing because it fucks me up. I get a shitload done when I'm interested in a project and immediately stop when I lose interest and start working on something else. But I get a shitload done on that project too for a while, and sooner or later I return to paused projects. So in the long run it's actually quite efficient But for most of my life I had to do what I was told because the tellers had the power to make me, and they thought I was wasting my life otherwise. Not any more. Now I'm directing my own life and I'm healthier and happier, and only getting more so. I needed understanding, support, space and time to achieve that, not scorn, pressure and threats. Those made it impossible to achieve anything or even to feel happiness. gently caress hierarchies and gently caress bootstraps. And I highly recommend severing from toxic relatives.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:14
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Braggart posted:gently caress hierarchies and gently caress bootstraps. Hell yeah. Glad you're doing better now.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:21
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Destroy the family (by proliferating superior relationships of care from non-biological friend and comrade groups and turning them into acceptable non-hierarchical structures for expression of strength and support.)
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Oct 27, 2019 22:25
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Found family best family.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:28
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Vitamin P posted:Last page, if I've understood the motion correctly then there isn't much working to show it's just obvious, certainly enough that the 'no this can actually work' working would be on your side. This is the same Diane Abbott that right wing pricks have been attacking as innumerate for the last several years. Do you think you could make your mind up, or at least stop shifting rhetorical focus for one minute?
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Oct 27, 2019 22:37
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WhatEvil posted:Yeah when I typed that I immediately though "This has already been done as a concept, for sure". See also: Snowpiercer. Because it's a really fun film.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:37
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Full results of the Labour candidate selections are out. https://labourlist.org/2019/10/super-sunday-labour-candidate-selection-results/ Nadia Whittome for Nottingham East looks very impressive, I look forward to her smashing Chris Leslie.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:47
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Let's try to put this to bed. Light tubes are an interesting and useful way to get daylight into a room with no outside walls that a window could otherwise occupy. The light collector is about the size of a small window, the tube is sealed so it doesn't get gunked up with dead flies and crucially, the pipe is short and relatively straight. Light tubes are not viable for the multistorey underground applications given in the diagrams posted in this thread. While even cloudy day lux levels are much higher than you'd specify for even the most brightly lit indoor environments, that's only one key variable. The first other one is the size of the collector which gathers that light energy. Say we've built a five storey underground UKMT goonbunker to live out the apocalypse. Each floor needs 200 lux to stop us getting more than moderately suicidal. The post-apocalyptic climate is forever overcast, with a light level of 1000 lux. To capture enough energy at 1000 lux that we can pipe it underground to give 200 lux on all 5 floors means the light collector needs to be equivalent in area to a whole floor of the goonbunker. In practice it would be much larger because we need to be able to drive slaves around all the collectors to clean them, and to fit the light tube 'plumbing' in. A better way to collect large quantities of sunlight is with a mirror array and one big collector, something like this. While this converts solar energy into heated steam, it would be your most practical way to gather light for the goonbunker because it allows you to have one main conduit rather than hundreds of separate pipes passing down through the floors beneath. And it could be adapted into a death ray.  Arguably, solar panels are even better because you only need to take a few cables down into the goonbunker and it's much easier to make these secure. The GBS hordes can't drop camel spiders down a cable. They can drop them down a light tube. The second other reason is the efficiency of the tube system. With each bounce down the tube only 99.99% or so of the light is reflected, but the light has to bounce thousands of times. More if there's a corner to go around. Even in domestic applications with short sections of tube, the system noticeably loses efficiency with every bend. The goonbunker is going to need a lot of bends to collect the light tubes together into one bundle, otherwise floor 5 is going to be completely useless- 4 floors worth of light tubes have to pass straight through it.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:54
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There's a research center in Arizona that supposedly runs all their daytime lighting for offices and labs off of a 9v wall wart. It drives a polished chromed satellite dish to track the sun as a heliostat, with an inch thick bundle of optical fibers where the horn would be, and each one of those ends up in a light diffuser. Probably less practical in the UK, but still cool.
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Oct 27, 2019 22:58
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Everything's less practical in this hell country
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Oct 27, 2019 23:01
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Braggart I don't see you post much, and after that I hope to see you post more. What avatar do you want?
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Oct 27, 2019 23:04
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Endjinneer posted:Let's try to put this to bed. I mean if you're building a massive solar melter array you might as well just use it to store heat and make power during the night. It's a much betetr thing to do with it than making light in a room, inefficiently.
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Oct 27, 2019 23:06
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