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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I'm not so sure about this. I don't recall anything from this scene that indicated he actually believed the relationship was real and was being confronted with the fact that it wasn't. I read the "delusion" scenes as more of a deliberate retreat into a fantasy world when life got tough, but at this point in the film he was driven to reach out for an actual human connection because the fantasy wasn't enough anymore. When he entered the apartment he was certainly behaving in a way that indicated he knew that he'd never been in there before. Agreed that I like this interpretation; there's no indication that he thinks his earlier murray show fantasy is a delusion; I also recall the rawness in the line "I had a bad day" in the apartment. He's really reaching out for the warmth of kindness and it's desperate; he doesn't think he's returned for round two with the waifu.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:14
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I think he disbelieves some fantasies consciously and continually, because he's aware that he has them and is on the lookout for the inconsistencies they have with other memories. So when he imagines being in the audience and being called out to hug Murray and be told he's a great son, it might feel plausibly real but he knows he never got invited and went to the studio. Likewise he might have really, really wanted to climb into his fridge and kill himself, but he knows he wasn't rescued or saved himself from it, it just didn't happen. Then compare the standup night and the girlfriend, they were more subtle. People laughed at his jokes instead of dead silence, and he imagined a companion as he did daily routines. Not only did he really want to believe these simple positive experiences happened, they were much more plausible from his fractured pov/memory until they were directly contradicted by reality. So when he sees his standup recording, he genuinely believes he did well until it shows him choking, and he genuinely thought his girlfriend would be there to comfort him in his time of need. The loss of everything he thought he had - clowning, standup, mother, girlfriend, and Wayne as a father and/or antagonist, meant all he had left was fantasising about climbing into his fridge to die. Then he decides to go for a theatrical suicide on TV but fucks that up too.
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Oct 22, 2019 16:56
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I forget, did the fridge scene happen before or after he fridged his mom?
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Oct 22, 2019 17:18
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I honestly thought "no one's laughing now" was a good joke.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:06
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100 degrees Calcium posted:I honestly thought "no one's laughing now" was a good joke. It was but it's all about the context and delivery. He was making a statement rather than being ironic on purpose.
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Oct 22, 2019 22:23
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100 degrees Calcium posted:I honestly thought "no one's laughing now" was a good joke. It’s an old standup joke
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Oct 23, 2019 12:11
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Pulling a Budd Dwyer is obviously something you'd expect him to try on the show, but is there any explicit indication that it was his original plan, and only later switched to kill Murray? Murder suicide is also a likely choice. I just forget if we ever know who he is specifically planning to kill, only that he and/or Murray are probably going to die on that stage.
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Oct 23, 2019 17:52
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:Pulling a Budd Dwyer is obviously something you'd expect him to try on the show, but is there any explicit indication that it was his original plan, and only later switched to kill Murray? Well he rehearses his appearance at length including his suicide so... yeah.
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Oct 23, 2019 17:56
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He's too narcissistic to commit suicide. This is a joker who needs to see his audience's reaction, which is kinda why he stands around impotently and awkwardly after he kills Murray and the audience flees. He's looking for a reaction and doesn't get any from the cameras, so continues to shoot the dead body and flounders a bit before going into his dance routine.
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Oct 23, 2019 18:55
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:They wanted an actor where you don't want him to get shot  (also lol)
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Oct 23, 2019 22:57
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I’m not sure about that tbh. I was pumped for Joker to kill Murray.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:00
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I was so sick of his scolding, I wanted to shoot him myself.
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Oct 23, 2019 23:48
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Putting Maron in that part means you lose out on the King of Comedy role reversal. Doesn't matter whether De Niro is or isn't suited for it, Phillips wanted that obvious homage.
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Oct 24, 2019 03:47
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I found the movie kind of gross and uneven. Phoenix and the cinematography were both quite good. I was worried Phoenix would be too much of a caricature based on early reviews but he doesn't play it cartoonishly. The capturing of a stylized gritty New York was a good reason I felt gross, but the others were thematic. I found the score hamhanded, mostly since I usually don't notice scores. But it wasn't a huge thing. It was mostly in combination with the movie's odd beats at the end which definitely seem like they're glorifying Joker (the cigarette coolness, steps scene, the clown lips of blood and dancing). I felt like I was getting hit over the head and the ambiguity of his position was transformed into a deliberate coolness that you kind of have to have in a Joker Origins movie. The class struggle aspects also felt confused. The rich were depicted as vile out of touch elites but the poor were also depicted as violent people latching dumbly on to a symbol they imagine represents their struggle. Basically the only character of sympathy is Joker, just by his coolness at the end, and the politics of having an amoral socially isolated loner glamorized made me feel gross. There were some interesting themes, but the general misanthropy of everything just made me deeply unhappy. It could have been what the movie was going for, but it just felt like it grabbed a handful of what it views as "deep" themes and couldn't quite figure out what to do with them and in the end made a standard glorification movie despite ample opportunity to go in more interesting or ambiguous directions.
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Oct 24, 2019 13:43
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Oct 25, 2019 06:16
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Finally saw this. It was alright. Phoenix's performance, the visual aesthetic, and that loving score are S-tier examples of moviemaking. That combination was enough for me to say it's not a bad movie at all, though I'll 100% agree with any criticism that says the movie feels a bit uneven narratively. I only really started to engage with the film when Fleck's clown buddies visit him at his apartment. Everything up until then felt very plain. Still, it's a refreshing entry in the genre. Hope to see WB take a chance on more movies like this one.
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Oct 25, 2019 21:08
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I have a dream in the back of my head, where Kamala Khan and Squirrel Girl must embark on a cross-county road-trip with a talking-car. Hopefully the Superhero genre will get so saturated to the point that there will be more mid-budget experimental pieces like Joker, though not the same tone. Now that Thanos is dead-dead the MCU can't fob audiences off with yet another cosmic-threat and expect proceedings to be fresh.
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Oct 25, 2019 21:40
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I have a dream in the back of my head, where Kamala Khan and Squirrel Girl must embark on a cross-county road-trip with a talking-car. Hopefully the Superhero genre will get so saturated to the point that there will be more mid-budget experimental pieces like Joker, though not the same tone. Now that Thanos is dead-dead the MCU can't fob audiences off with yet another cosmic-threat and expect proceedings to be fresh. I mean it just felt like Taxi Driver which I’m sure a hundred people itt already mentioned. None of the gloss of even Suicide Squad just the ugly streets and subways of “Gotham” Guy doing his best takes a beating from kids. Downward spiral ensues.
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Oct 25, 2019 21:44
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I didn't love the movie or hate it, nor will I expend any cells to think about it. I just think there's a lot of potential in adapting all that odd-ball elseworld stuff. Maybe a horror-movie with the Scarecrow, or a cat-and-mouse thriller with Riddler and Hugo Strange. Anything that doesn't involve a big pillar of light in the climax.
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Oct 25, 2019 22:10
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Segue posted:The class struggle aspects also felt confused. The rich were depicted as vile out of touch elites but the poor were also depicted as violent people latching dumbly on to a symbol they imagine represents their struggle. God, I was having the hardest time conveying this the way you did and I totally agree. I was actually rationalizing it by framing it in the same way as something I read from Zizek that I kind of agree with, where he says that violent outbursts oftentimes come about from a vague feeling of deadlock.
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Oct 25, 2019 23:03
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I didn't love the movie or hate it, nor will I expend any cells to think about it. I just think there's a lot of potential in adapting all that odd-ball elseworld stuff. Maybe a horror-movie with the Scarecrow, or a cat-and-mouse thriller with Riddler and Hugo Strange. Anything that doesn't involve a big pillar of light in the climax. A live-action adaptation of Justice League: Gods and Monsters would be rad as gently caress.
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Oct 25, 2019 23:52
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Maybe a horror-movie with the Scarecrow, Only if Cillian Murphy reprises the role, also he is allowed to use his Irish accent. 
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Oct 26, 2019 01:41
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Whoops wrong thread
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Oct 26, 2019 02:52
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teagone posted:Finally saw this. It was alright. Phoenix's performance, the visual aesthetic, and that loving score are S-tier examples of moviemaking. That combination was enough for me to say it's not a bad movie at all, though I'll 100% agree with any criticism that says the movie feels a bit uneven narratively. I only really started to engage with the film when Fleck's clown buddies visit him at his apartment. Everything up until then felt very plain. Still, it's a refreshing entry in the genre. Hope to see WB take a chance on more movies like this one. Considering it's the highest-grossing R-rated movie of all time, I'd say more DC Black Label movies are a pretty real possibility.
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Oct 26, 2019 06:33
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Mira posted:God, I was having the hardest time conveying this the way you did and I totally agree. What?! ALL outbursts come from deadlock. That's what breaks ''em.
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Oct 26, 2019 07:34
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https://twitter.com/TheOnion/status/1188204424663126018?s=20
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Oct 26, 2019 23:03
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Desperado Bones posted:Only if Cillian Murphy reprises the role, also he is allowed to use his Irish accent. I'd be happy with John Noble. He owned in Arkham Knight. However, I'd also love a Penguin versus Riddler movie starring Robin Lord Taylor and Cory Michael Smith
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Oct 27, 2019 07:31
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Interestingly, I took away from Murray that he's not actually that happy with tearing people down for comedy, it's something he's being made to do by the production teams. Notably he seems honestly sincere in his desire to provide a stage for Arthur at the end, until the murdering clown monster came up. Admittedly, possibly not a correct reading.
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Oct 27, 2019 15:19
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Bogus Adventure posted:I'd be happy with John Noble. He owned in Arkham Knight. Oh God, Taylor was a perfect Penguin.  Cory was as amazing. I miss those two, to be honest.
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Oct 27, 2019 16:21
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:BTW anyone who says they wish the class stuff was more pronounced should really, really watch Parasite, and don't look up anything about the movie I don't know if I buy it for the first one. I mean the main point of that movie is that people deserve a chance at redemption and change instead of getting purged like the degenerates they are, that's a fundamentally non rightwing take.
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Oct 27, 2019 17:28
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Bogus Adventure posted:I'd be happy with John Noble. He owned in Arkham Knight. Supervillains have to team up not battle it out, did you learn nothing from the hit film Batman and robin
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Oct 27, 2019 20:43
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Desperado Bones posted:Oh God, Taylor was a perfect Penguin.  BaldDwarfOnPCP posted:Supervillains have to team up not battle it out, did you learn nothing from the hit film Batman and robin
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Oct 27, 2019 23:30
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That was an interesting film. I feel like all the buzz and competing opinions in The Discourse made it hard for me to get a read on the film. I generally liked the film more the less it involved Batman poo poo, and the more it tried to be an arthouse examination of the degeneration of the main character. I guess it was saying that Joker was in large ways a product of his society, which feels like a different take than something like a Heath Ledger joker, who literally toyed with people's ideas that he had any kind of sensible origin. Although I still can't tell if the film was trying to make a deliberate statement or if it was putting together a bunch of different elements in a way designed to seem deep. My friend, who's libertarian, appreciated how it wasn't a movie where they were trying to force a narrative down her throat. I legit don't know if it was, if it wasn't, or if it wasn't but made to seem like it was. It was kind of funny that in the movie people were appropriating the Joker to mean different things depending on their viewpoint, when that's literally what people have been doing in The Discourse. I definitely do not buy this Joker as a charismatic Joker. Even by the end he's still this really whimpering mealy-voiced guy who's just more likely to shoot people and make out with old women. It feels notable that he comes to power just because other people literally pull him out of trouble and prop him on a pedestal.
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Oct 27, 2019 23:58
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If we’re doing R rated Batman stuff then sure let’s do another Arnie / Dr Freeze movie. Why not.
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Oct 28, 2019 09:15
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well why not posted:If we’re doing R rated Batman stuff then sure let’s do another Arnie / Dr Freeze movie. Why not. Mr Freeze is the most overrated villain. He has the exact same story told over and over again.
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Oct 28, 2019 09:30
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Necrothatcher posted:Mr Freeze is the most overrated villain. He has the exact same story told over and over again. It's not even a story, it's just a premise, it's better off not told tbh.
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Oct 28, 2019 15:02
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The worst part of grimdark Batman is it really limits what villains you can do. C’mon, make a serious Clock King movie I dare you.
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Oct 28, 2019 16:21
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Necrothatcher posted:Mr Freeze is the most overrated villain. He has the exact same story told over and over again. That's because he was a gag villain before Paul Dini wrote Heart of Ice.
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Oct 28, 2019 16:34
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Arnie as bane would have been the greatest comic book casting of all time.
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Oct 28, 2019 20:53
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Arnie Freeze owns.
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Oct 29, 2019 03:11
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