Mirdini posted:

With further due respect, I believe the proposal from Parti du Roi risks a clique of powerful dukes trading the crown between them, and awarding each other land to maintain that relationship. Many electors only strengthens the realm, as it forces monarchs and dukes to work together for the good of all of the crusade rather than centralizing power in a small circle. Our monarch furthermore receives the prestige and honor of becoming Advocate of the Holy Sepulchre, commanding the armies of Christ in the Holy Land, and more besides - taking the stance that our monarchs must be guaranteed swaths of land to motivate them to further the will of Christ is a rather pessimistic and unchristian stance. Besides, the Haute Cour stands ready to motivate necessary expansion should a future monarch prove unwilling in light of their personal avarice.

Let me say that I do appreciate the intent of a large part of the Parti du Roi's law: it does seek to prioritize unlanded crusaders once de jure concerns have been addressed (much as our proposed law seeks to do). That is commendable.

However, the second clause of the Land Distribution of 1105 Act is unfortunately poorly worded and missing a critical safeguard, which I believe further undermines it: first off, 'should' is not an imperative, making the proposed law of questionable power. Additionally, it makes no reference to Ducal titles, opening the door to a monarch simply creating ducal titles of conquered territory, awarding them to friendly nobles who already have lands, and then giving them said territory as it would then be their 'de jure' territory.

Should the Parti du Roi seek to legislate further on non-holy conflict land distribution in the next session, I would be glad to approve of their efforts if any proposed legislation dealt with these concerns.

Erwin the German posted:

: The Crown must have more men - two votes towards the Feudal Obligation Act. However, I fear I must place my remaining three votes against the Silk Must Flow policy. While I believe it is a splendid idea in theory, in practice this could not have been proposed at a worse time. There will be time to make Jerusalem rich, as the merchants and all good Christians desire. For now, we must ensure we have the funds now to make Jerusalem safe.

This Crusade must be successful by any means - for the sake of our borders, and on behalf of the lives of noble crusaders such as Galdemar, slain through their vile duplicity. On that note, I will of course be supporting the directive that our next feast be dedicated to his memory and life.

Top Hats Monthly posted:

Although I agree with some parts of your logical reasoning, we as a collective cannot abrogate the right to rule by those who by their rightful entitlement and right to those who's only claim to the title is being a courtier or even landed. Examining the facts of the case, we can find that the feudal system means that by nature, a few powerful dukes is far more critical to the stability of the realm than a rather decentralized realm of paltry barons and counts. Take for example the England formerly ruled by the Godwinsons. We are better than the Witenaġemot of Anglo-Saxon England, who's control was weak and spread about people as important as dukes and as little as aldermen. Their decentralized system meant that when the Normans under William arrived on their shores a system of many counts and barons reacting to the threat was too little. William consolidated his realm into strong dukes with many (newly landed, mind you!) vassals underneath, and by the time he passed only a few short years ago in 1087, the realm was consolidated and the risk of civil war was nil. Although Jerusalem can gain from new landed local government, let that issue wait until after we have conquered our foe.

Although I believe that everyone in the Haute Cour is almost certainly trustworthy, a system of justly compensating those who's territory is de jure initially and then spreading the titles amongst those who are currently unlanded will provide the stability that Jerusalem needs while the Saracens knock at our doors, ready to take back what they view as theirs. A scattered system of barons and counts, answering to no one but directly their liege will undermine that stability and prevent forces from being rallied in our darkest hours.

i81icu812 posted:

Ummm. My hyperlinked character profile changed to a three year old.

Hashim posted:

First casualties:

Count Galdemar of Hebron

Count Evrard of Beersheb

Baron Gaucelin of Rammala

Luckily, you all had kids. Your characters have been updated in the cast, as has Godefroy's.

Obliterati posted:

I regret having only the one vote and thus no opportunity to vote down this self-rewarding catechism, though now I've said as much publicly I suspect that if it passes I'll never have any more than one

Grizzwold posted:

- Construct two trade post holdings along the silk road, one in Jerusalem and one in Jaffa. This is estimated to cost approximately 100 gold in total.
- If any further eligible provinces are conquered from the infidel, a trade post holding is to be constructed in the wealthiest single province for another 50 gold.
- Upgrade the trade post in Jerusalem with a Silk Road Trading Post for 200 gold.

i81icu812 posted:

-Prioritize conquering the provinces of Gaza that separate the southern reaches of the Kingdom from the coast during the current crusade against Egypt
-Prioritize the conquest of Tyrus (or whatever that county is) at the earliest safe opportunity to reconnect the constituent parts of the Kingdom

Pakled posted:

The Feudal vassal obligation shall be set to Levy Shifted.

Top Hats Monthly posted:

The following tenets make up the act:

-For every 4 titles the King receives through war or revocation, 3 must be distributed to persons other than the Monarch or his direct heirs. This ensures the King will still receive just compensation while giving the lions share to the court. Inherited titles are exempt from this numerical limit.

-Those who are eligible to receive a title, and said title is their de jure territory, should receive that territory. The next in line would be those unlanded, while the last resort is those who already have land outside their de jure territory.

-Bishoprics and cities are exempt from this Act.

Mirdini posted:

- The distribution of all titles below the rank of Kingdom (and lands thereof) conquered by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in a holy war or crusade must be determined the Haute Cour, not left to the sole judgement of the monarch of Jerusalem (henceforth termed 'the monarch').

- If there are unlanded crusaders sitting in the Haute Cour, any counties conquered under the above clause must be distributed to them first (in order of their joining the Haute Cour), one county apiece until no sitting crusader remains unlanded.

- Ducal titles of territories conquered by the Kingdom in a holy war or crusade may only be usurped or formed by the monarch after land has been distributed under the prior clause. Those Ducal titles must then be awarded to an eligible count of the Haute Cour who holds a county in that duchy's de jure territory.

- The monarch may not usurp or form a ducal title if the majority of said duchy has been conquered by a single vassal, unless said vassal waives their right to the title.

Capfalcon posted:

Every year, the king shall call a feast unless he is actively campaigning with the army.

Obliterati posted:

Alters the Pilgrim Toll Law to Infidel Tolls.

MaxieSatan posted:

-reassign the Steward to Collect Taxes in our wealthiest province at once.

Mirdini posted:

-dedicate Jerusalem's next feast to the memory of the fallen Count Galdemar, and condemn the vile Hashashin who murdered him.

MaxieSatan posted:

• The Kingdom of Jerusalem is to join the ongoing Crusade at once. The question of who shall be the primary Beneficiary will be left to the Pope, in his infallible wisdom.
  
• A sum of no less than 400 gold* is to be earmarked as a mercenary fund, to be used only if the King deems it both useful and necessary to hire soldiers of fortune for the war effort.
  
• Request support from the Vatican in the form of gold, troops, or holy relics, if they have any to spare. This is important, after all!
  

Lord Cyrahzax posted:

While trade posts should be built, our priority now must be war- and as for the 'Avarice Prevention' act, I am afraid the Haute Cour does not meet often enough to determine this. The king must have more leeway to act in these matters.

Zikan posted:

Having realized that 'Avarice Prevention' act will cripple the ability to managed our kingdom by only allowing management of titles and land every 5 years, I urge my fellow member of the Haute Cour to vote in opposition to an act that would needlessly add a immense burden to basic management of the Kingdom of Jerusalem

Lord Cyrahzax posted:

I, Prince Raimond, have looked at the proposed laws and decided to repeal my current votes for the Feudal Obligations law- it does not need them. Instead, I will be protecting our kingdom from other, misguided efforts:

I am placing 4 votes AGAINST the Avarice Prevention Act and 2 votes AGAINST The Silk Must Flow.

While trade posts should be built, our priority now must be war- and as for the 'Avarice Prevention' act, I am afraid the Haute Cour does not meet often enough to determine this. The king must have more leeway to act in these matters.

Mirdini posted:

This is a clear lie, unfortunately. The Avarice Prevention Act only concerns land distribution of lands conquered in a holy war or crusade in the aftermath of such wars, and as I noted in my response to Prince Raimond, is not even a concern in that regard in those matters.

quote:

- The distribution of all titles below the rank of Kingdom (and lands thereof) conquered by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in a holy war or crusade must be determined [by] the Haute Cour, not left to the sole judgement of the monarch of Jerusalem (henceforth termed 'the monarch').

quote:

- If there are unlanded crusaders sitting in the Haute Cour, any counties conquered under the above clause must be distributed to them first (in order of their joining the Haute Cour), one county apiece until no sitting crusader remains unlanded.

quote:

Ducal titles of territories conquered by the Kingdom in a holy war or crusade may only be usurped or formed by the monarch after land has been distributed under the prior clause. Those Ducal titles must then be awarded to an eligible count of the Haute Cour who holds a county in that duchy's de jure territory.

Top Hats Monthly posted:

habeasdorkus posted:

I also support both directives, they are well chosen for both the realm and the love they show the late Galdemar.

Zikan posted:

As duchies have multiple counties and by the interpretation of clause two each county shall be held by a different member of the Haute Cour, how is the Monarch supposed to distribute a Ducal title without making a sole judgement unless he consults with the Haute Cour? Clause two states it is only for unlanded crusaders, it does nothing to adjudicate claims among landed crusaders. The Monarch does not have any rules for distribution of Ducal titles like in clause two.

By any fair interpretation Ducal titles can only be distributed at a meeting of the Haute Cour, otherwise the Monarch would be making a sole judgement among the individual counts among a duchy's de-jure territory, without the guidance of the Haute Cour. Thus duchys could only be created and distributed every five years.

sheep-dodger posted:

This is some bad faith BS
The Act defines how the monarch can distribute ducal titles: to one of the counts within the title's de-jure territory. Which eligible count is then left to the discretion of the monarch.

Hashim posted:

Just to be clear, you've got 2 votes, so I'm assuming you want both moved

Zikan posted:

The reason clause two does not the language that bans 'sole judgement' is that the rule is ironclad, it's clauses are easy to verify objectively and it is nearly impossible for the king to have any subjective authority on it's interpretation. It must be recognized that Clause One has extremely broad implications as it applies to all titles below the rank of king

quote:

The distribution of all titles below the rank of Kingdom (and lands thereof) conquered by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in a holy war or crusade

Mirdini posted:

The part of the sentence specifying "conquered by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in a holy war or crusade" still exists, contrary to your insistence that it does not. The 'not left to the sole judgement' part of the clause CLEARLY appends this limitation, meaning it is only *conquered* titles (in holy wars or crusades, no less) that are applied to.

Zikan posted:

I ask the honorable member of the Haute Cour again.



How many of the surrounding shiekdoms do you think would let servants of Christ marry into their house and inherit their lands?

Zikan posted:

How is this not the sole judgement of the monarch among the candidates? It is by definition a subjective decision made by a criteria that the Haute Cour has no input on.

MaxieSatan posted:

• The Kingdom of Jerusalem is to join the ongoing Crusade at once. The question of who shall be the primary Beneficiary will be left to the Pope, in his infallible wisdom.
  
• A sum of no less than 400 gold* is to be earmarked as a mercenary fund, to be used only if the King deems it both useful and necessary to hire soldiers of fortune for the war effort.
  
• Request support from the Vatican in the form of gold, troops, or holy relics, if they have any to spare. This is important, after all!
  

Pakled posted:

The Feudal vassal obligation shall be set to Levy Shifted.

i81icu812 posted:

-Prioritize conquering the provinces of Gaza that separate the southern reaches of the Kingdom from the coast during the current crusade against Egypt
-Prioritize the conquest of Tyrus (or whatever that county is) at the earliest safe opportunity to reconnect the constituent parts of the Kingdom

Mirdini posted:

- The distribution of all titles below the rank of Kingdom (and lands thereof) conquered by the Kingdom of Jerusalem in a holy war or crusade must be determined the Haute Cour, not left to the sole judgement of the monarch of Jerusalem (henceforth termed 'the monarch').

- If there are unlanded crusaders sitting in the Haute Cour, any counties conquered under the above clause must be distributed to them first (in order of their joining the Haute Cour), one county apiece until no sitting crusader remains unlanded.

- Ducal titles of territories conquered by the Kingdom in a holy war or crusade may only be usurped or formed by the monarch after land has been distributed under the prior clause. Those Ducal titles must then be awarded to an eligible count of the Haute Cour who holds a county in that duchy's de jure territory.

- The monarch may not usurp or form a ducal title if the majority of said duchy has been conquered by a single vassal, unless said vassal waives their right to the title.

MaxieSatan posted:

-reassign the Steward to Collect Taxes in our wealthiest province at once.

Mirdini posted:

-dedicate Jerusalem's next feast to the memory of the fallen Count Galdemar, and condemn the vile Hashashin who murdered him.

Xelkelvos posted:

Mercator Dei people need to get in the Discord and get your role in. A lot of discussion and politicking goes on in there.

Zikan posted:

Should post a link for the people not in the know

Xelkelvos posted:

It's in the second Post.

Hashim posted:

If you're interested in participating or want to check out senatorial roasts and jerusalem chat, it might be useful to join the LP's Discord, so click HERE for that.