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Mr. Powers posted:I think I explained poorly. First, it is a Honda EU 2000i that I have. I know I can double it up, but I believe combined it's still just the single phase. Yes, that would still be 120v, just with double the amperage available. Mr. Powers posted:Second, I am proposing two generators: the EU inverting generator for sensitive circuits on a transfer switch, What do you envision this "transfer switch" to be? To your panel? You panel needs 240v or you're gonna be running only one side of it. If you're talking about a transfer PANEL, where circuits on that panel have their own breakers this is a different story, but I've never seen a 120v one. Nor one that would be considered suitable for automatically isolating the panel which you're then going to backfeed? With this: Mr. Powers posted:and a dirty power generator that puts out two phases of 120 for everything not transferred. What you seem to be proposing here is a house fire that you insurance company will deny the claim on. I'd suggest you get a proper backup generator and use it as intended. Decent non-inverter generators aren't going to damage household "sensitive electronics" made in the last couple of decades.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:07
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Depending on the wattage required a step-up transformer might be a reasonable idea. I have no idea what's good, but Amazon prices are pretty cheap. Linking two unsynchronized 120v AC systems together in an attempt to get 240v would result in very bad things happening and you definitely should not do that. The only two ways to make that work would be to physically connect the two together so they ran at the same speed and were appropriately phased or to convert both input feeds to DC before inverting it back to AC. The first of those ideas is something that would only make sense in a Youtube video being made for the views, not for something you actually want to depend on, and the second would be nonsensically expensive unless you were also planning to put a battery backup solution on this circuit in which case you're most of the way there already. If neither of these apply and the transformer isn't an option, you should probably just get a bigger generator. In fact if you intend to rely on it for extended backup power I'd probably just get a bigger generator anyways. Something small enough to not have 240v is not something I'd be wanting to count on for basic comforts of life like running water.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:15
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It turns out there's an easier solution, and there are now 120/240V inverting generators. Reading Motronic's comments, I forgot to mention that I have a cheater cable for the 120V generator that will light up both legs in the panel with the same phase. I called it my 120/0V cable. This is the sort of transfer switch I had in mind. You are switching the source for individual circuits over. https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-Corporation-31406CRK-Generators/dp/B000BQN4T2 Everything after the first paragraph of this post is moot though.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:30
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I think what they are proposing is that some circuits are driven by one generator, and some other circuits are driven by another generator. It seems complicated, but doable in a way that doesn't burn your house down. Two independent transfer switches? I would consider instead a dual-conversion UPS for the sensitive equipment, if it really needs it.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:32
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I mean, maybe I don't need anything special, but my understanding was that things with Active PFC hated non-inverting generators due to changing frequency and voltage of the output. If I can just get a 5kW+ plain old 120/240V generator, that's certainly the cheapest method. There appear to be relatively inexpensive 5kW non-Honda inverting generators with 120/240V output (B&S Q6500 at $1200) as well.
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Oct 31, 2019 21:46
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120/240 residential is actually referred to as "split phase", as it's on a single phase transformer. Trying to get some split phase 240v out of two 120v AC generators is realistically not possible. Motronic pretty well covered it, but even when AC generators are tied together, to my knowledge they are never used in the way you're suggesting, they are always paralleled. If you can use a common 240v inverter generator to power everything, that is by far the easiest solution.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:07
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Mr. Powers posted:I mean, maybe I don't need anything special, but my understanding was that things with Active PFC hated non-inverting generators due to changing frequency and voltage of the output. If I can just get a 5kW+ plain old 120/240V generator, that's certainly the cheapest method. There appear to be relatively inexpensive 5kW non-Honda inverting generators with 120/240V output (B&S Q6500 at $1200) as well. Have you compared non-inverting generators plus a whole house power conditioner if you're that concerned about clean power? Really, a well maintained regular generator shouldn't be too far off what you get from the grid, and I say this as someone who used a 4kW generator to power his maple syrup operation for two years (and 10x 300 gallon tanks of propane) and finally switched to a 500 ft. run of 2/0 (with a voltage drop of only 9v per leg) that powers some rather finicky equipment that REALLY doesn't like bad power, and I didn't have any issues running 24 hours a day for 6-8 weeks/year on the genset, which now lives as my parent's backup generator for winters in northern Michigan.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:46
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Okay, guys, I was not asking to get split phase AC from two generators. I will, however, use that correct term now. I feel like I need to draw a diagram of what I was actually asking when I get home, even though it is now irrelevant.
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Nov 1, 2019 00:11
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You mentioned powering a 240v well pump via two 120v generators in the initial post.  If you intended to run two independent 120v generators to power the two hot legs in your panel independently, for one that's a weird way to do things, and also it's not gonna be a 240v system as the generators have no reference between them and are not tied together. You received an answer to the question you asked, there's no attitude behind it and no one is calling you dumb.
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Nov 1, 2019 01:06
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Mr. Powers posted:I feel like I need to draw a diagram of what I was actually asking when I get home, even though it is now irrelevant. Yes, please. Do you mean having both bus bars on the same phase and one neutral? If so, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work for anything except the 240V well pump, except that maybe the neutral would be undersized?
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Nov 1, 2019 02:46
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two gens sharing a neutral with no phase sync sounds like a dangerous idea. current could circulate between the two gen's via the neutral id reckon.
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Nov 1, 2019 04:48
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angryrobots posted:You mentioned powering a 240v well pump via two 120v generators in the initial post. I specified one dirty generator with two 120V phases (correct term should have been split phase, I guess) (i.e. a 120/240 generator) and a second generator providing a third clean 120V phase for other circuits. That was not two unsynchronized 120V generators to get 240V. E: Diagram. I probably have symbols wrong. I normally work with digital schematics and also don't have anything to make diagrams on my computer, so this is what I poo poo out. I still have no idea what would have been done with neutrals, and I may not have the correct concept of what goes on in those multicircuit generator transfer switches, but this is what was in my head. I thought they were basically individual electrical interlocks for N circuits. I am still curious a) would this actually work and b) how likely is the fire. Generator A is the dirty guy, Generator B is the inverter. 
carticket fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Nov 1, 2019 |
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Nov 1, 2019 05:15
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Mr. Powers posted:I specified one dirty generator with two 120V phases (correct term should have been split phase, I guess) (i.e. a 120/240 generator) and a second generator providing a third clean 120V phase for other circuits. That was not two unsynchronized 120V generators to get 240V. I realize that's what you thought you were asking, but that's not what you were asking. Mr. Powers posted:Generator question: is it possible to have a stupid dual generator setup, with an interlock feeding two phases of 120 from a noisy generator and a transfer switch feeding nice clean 120 from an inverting generator to the circuits that would dislike dirty power? Note that this question is ambiguous to the point of uselessness. How are the two generators connected? It's just not clear. It's made MORE unclear by "two phases of 120" in the context of "stupid dual generator setup." If you'd said "I have a 240V generator and a clean 120V generator and want to power my house with them, but with only SOME of the circuits on the clean power. Can I use a transfer switch to do this?" you would have gotten a significantly different answer.
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Nov 1, 2019 12:24
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When you break it down like that, yeah, it's ambiguous. Obviously, I knew what I meant, so even rereading it, with that context it was clear to me (if somewhat jumbled) what I was asking. Anyway, I'll have to find a new and exciting way to burn the house down since this one was easily resolved.
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Nov 1, 2019 13:35
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Is there a reason to have light switches that turn off the wall sockets in a room? Is there a way to disable them?
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Nov 1, 2019 19:58
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:Is there a reason to have light switches that turn off the wall sockets in a room? Is there a way to disable them? You plug lamps into them.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:04
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All outlets in the room? That's asinine. If you remove the switch you can nut the wires to bypass it.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:06
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SpartanIvy posted:All outlets in the room? That's asinine. If you remove the switch you can nut the wires to bypass it. Not usually all of them, no. Usually one in each place where someone might have a lamp. In the UK there's different plugs with lower amp ratings, with circular pins instead of square.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:07
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In my experience with switched outlets in the US it's usually just half an outlet that's switched. You can undo that by jumping the screws with a small piece of wire and disconnecting and capping the switched wires.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:13
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SpartanIvy posted:In my experience with switched outlets in the US it's usually just half an outlet that's switched. You can undo that by jumping the screws with a small piece of wire and disconnecting and capping the switched wires. Fair enough. It's pretty rare over here and is considered "an American thing", so most people don't have a clue what the sockets are for and just wonder why some of their light switches don't do anything.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:17
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SpartanIvy posted:In my experience with switched outlets in the US it's usually just half an outlet that's switched. You can undo that by jumping the screws with a small piece of wire and disconnecting and capping the switched wires. In homes that had electricians who gave a poo poo, this is true. I've rarely run across them in new/development construction. It's usually the entire outlet, which of course makes little sense.
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Nov 1, 2019 21:18
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Motronic posted:In homes that had electricians who gave a poo poo, this is true. I've rarely run across them in new/development construction. It's usually the entire outlet, which of course makes little sense. I wonder if this just a function of the 2011 code that requires a neutral in the switch box. In my 80s house, the incoming circuit is to the receptacle box, with just a 14/2 running to the switch. It was easy for me to make half of my outlet switched (always the top one, dammit, to allow for wall warts), since I had the constant-on hot in that box. The downside, of course, is that you can forget about many smart switches that require a neutral. I know if I was a cheap-builder, I wouldn't spend an extra 50 cents to run 12/3 or 14/3 from the switch to the outlet.
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Nov 1, 2019 21:32
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B-Nasty posted:I wonder if this just a function of the 2011 code that requires a neutral in the switch box. In my 80s house, the incoming circuit is to the receptacle box, with just a 14/2 running to the switch. It was easy for me to make half of my outlet switched (always the top one, dammit, to allow for wall warts), since I had the constant-on hot in that box. The downside, of course, is that you can forget about many smart switches that require a neutral. Switch loops are also pretty old school and I don't think many electricians who aren't at least in their 40s know much about them. It was a very specific time of remodels when houses had one light box in the middle of the room that was always hot (fixture on a pull chain) so you switch looped down to a wall switch. Most new runs I've seen for half switched outlets were fed from the switch rather than from the constant hot in the outlet box. Now we can argue over which direction is correct for an outlet, and whether you should be reversing that for switched outlets 
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Nov 1, 2019 22:16
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I wanted to run the HDMI and power cables for my TV through the wall, so I got these things which are supposedly to-code and UL-listed: Subsequently I discovered that the exterior walls on my house are shallow as gently caress:  So you see the problem. Here's my question: is it kosher to install an old-work box, and then mount an extension on the box, and then mount the receptacle in the first picture onto the extension? And assuming the answer is "yes," then what specifically is what I'm looking for called? When I look for box extensions, I find things that are intended to extend a box that's been recessed too far out to the surface of the wall. I'm looking for a thing that would extend a box from the wall. Like these things my kitchen counter receptacles are installed with (because apparently my kitchen also has shallow AF walls, which means I probably should have noticed that and realized that the living room walls are similar):  What are those called?
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Nov 1, 2019 23:22
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Phanatic posted:Here's my question: is it kosher to install an old-work box, and then mount an extension on the box, and then mount the receptacle in the first picture onto the extension? Probably? The problem is with the connection in the wall (electrical). So if you are using the provided stuff it's still a "temporary" cord and to code in any code I know of. Phanatic posted:
Extension ring. https://www.homedepot.com/p/ReceptXtenders-1-Gang-1-2-in-Electrical-Receptacle-Box-Extension-Ring-00004/100159668
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Nov 1, 2019 23:46
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That thing looks like a surface mount box, not the kind of box deepening extension you seem to be looking for. Similar to this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wiremold-Legrand-1-Gang-Non-Metallic-Duplex-Receptacle-Box-with-Faceplate-and-Device-NMW2-D/100544174 It's a different solution to shallow walls like you've got, but not for that HDMI receptacle, unfortunately.
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Nov 1, 2019 23:47
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Motronic posted:Probably? The problem is with the connection in the wall (electrical). So if you are using the provided stuff it's still a "temporary" cord and to code in any code I know of. The product cites this section: https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=111.0 You've got the flexible cord going from an existing receptacle to the inlet of this device, and then in the wall you've just got NM up to a receptacle behind the TV. The temporary cord isn't going through the wall.
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Nov 1, 2019 23:53
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Phanatic posted:The product cites this section: Oh yeah, I've seen that kind also. Should be fine. And Javid is right.....your pic is a surface mount box, but the thing you were asking about is actually the thing I linked.
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Nov 1, 2019 23:56
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Phanatic posted:I wanted to run the HDMI and power cables for my TV through the wall, so I got these things which are supposedly to-code and UL-listed: Aren't you lucky? You have furring strip walls with plaster and rock lath. Let me guess, 1950s? The problem with boxes in walls so shallow is box fill. There's rules to how many wires you can cram inside one box. Well, with boxes that small, you're basically limited to the end run of one cable. If you want to daisy chain one box to another down a branch with boxes that small, you'll need to add an extension like in your kitchen just to have room for the wires. There is one box I know of for shallow walls with room for more wires, but it can only go on walls that are a max of 1/2" thick. Otherwise, you're limited to steel boxes with plaster ears, then use the bendy F brackets to hold them in place. And the extensions you're looking for are called "wiremold". Also, be careful with a lot of those "TV power extensions". A LOT of them aren't to code. For those, you're limited to one inlet, one outlet. If it has a duplex at the end, then it isn't to code. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Nov 2, 2019 |
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Nov 2, 2019 00:04
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Phanatic posted:
WireMold That name is going to help you when you go to any big box or whatever to get the material. "Extension ring" can get you all kinds of stuff. "WireMold extension ring" is gonna get whats in that pic (and you can run off of it with more WireMold lengths, etc).
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Nov 2, 2019 00:11
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I used what is probably a similar kit for my living room TV. I got lucky and didn’t run into a horizontal fire stop block since it’s on an exterior wall.
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Nov 2, 2019 00:51
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Harkening from a place filled with brick walls onto which is dot & dab, the usual solution round here is for the electrician to chase into the brick to provide enough depth for your normal boxes.
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Nov 2, 2019 06:05
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I know that having a GFCI downstream from another GFCI doesn't do anything useful, but is it actively harmful to the point that I should replace one of them? If it makes any difference, both are outdoor outlets.
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Nov 3, 2019 20:28
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CaladSigilon posted:I know that having a GFCI downstream from another GFCI doesn't do anything useful, but is it actively harmful to the point that I should replace one of them?
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Nov 3, 2019 20:55
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Are they making panels smaller or something? I can barely get a #8 into a neutral bar these days, let alone anything larger...
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Nov 3, 2019 21:15
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Ferrule posted:Are they making panels smaller or something? I can barely get a #8 into a neutral bar these days, let alone anything larger... Remove one of the screws from the busbar, use the appropriate "add a lug" kit for your panel. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 3, 2019 |
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Nov 3, 2019 21:48
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First rant: are electricians and others who work on houses just all millionaires who don't need money or just all flakes? I am workshop outlet guy. After a week plus trying to get someone out supposedly one is going to text me and try to come this afternoon tonight. Is there anything I should ask or do to my workshop? If it is wired for 220 but that isn't hooked up should I ask him about setting that up? Should I ask why none of my outlets in the workshop are GFI? This is all if he even contacts me or shows up tonight.
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Nov 4, 2019 20:06
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everdave posted:First rant: are electricians and others who work on houses just all millionaires who don't need money or just all flakes? Your job isn't worth enough to care all that much. The good ones are out working on getting/doing jobs like wiring entire new homes and buildings. As for your other questions, they may or may not make sense depending on what he finds. Feel free to ask them.
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Nov 4, 2019 20:19
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Motronic posted:Your job isn't worth enough to care all that much. The good ones are out working on getting/doing jobs like wiring entire new homes and buildings. IF he shows up I am going to hopefully ask and get answered how to know that the wiring inside is completely shut off because I need to get rid of the fluorescent fixtures (only one is wired in the wiring is just up there for two more) and wire in either outlets up in the ceiling or LED fixtures. I'll ask if he can just wire in some outlets up there the ladder is out in the middle of the floor anyways. IF he texts/calls/shows up EDIT: and I guess/know you are right but I was at a friend's house yesterday putting away some camping stuff he let me borrow and he has spent months trying to get people out to do various jobs and they go so far as to call 30 minutes ahead and say they are on the way and just don't ever come! It is crazy. everdave fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 20:48
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This is why I work with larger companies for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC stuff I need to have done. It's generally pretty easy to get them to send out a junior tech to handle small jobs, and they have a support structure in place if the junior gets in over their heads.
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Nov 4, 2019 21:08
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