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Ambaire posted:The weird thing about these forums is that farming prisoners for organs and human skin in RimWorld is considered fine and good, but drowning mermen immediately escalates to top tier what the gently caress. I see no difference. It's just a game, anyway. i don't play rimworld but that sounds creepy as gently caress, for the record
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Oct 30, 2019 20:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Thanks guys, this conversation made the word "Uristsukidoji" pop into my head and it won't leave. How quickly people forgot about the tentacle demons of 40d
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Oct 30, 2019 21:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Jesus, were they really not aware of the extent of the stress problem? It's been a fortress-killing issue for literally years now. Hey he made a 3 year old fort with lots of taverns and temples and his dwarfs are fine. What are you complaining about?
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Oct 30, 2019 21:10
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Ambaire posted:The weird thing about these forums is that farming prisoners for organs and human skin in RimWorld is considered fine and good, but drowning mermen immediately escalates to top tier what the gently caress. I see no difference. It's just a game, anyway.
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Oct 30, 2019 21:16
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Johnny Joestar posted:i don't play rimworld but that sounds creepy as gently caress, for the record It's not 'fine and good'. Most colonists will get a significant bad mood from each organ harvested from a prisoner (capped at 4 at one time). The doctor who does the harvesting gets a stronger bad thought. You can only harvest 2 organs per prisoner without killing them (1 lung and 1 kidney) and trying to take a heart, liver, or the last lung or kidney will kill prisoner and cause an additional bad thought. In fact any time a prisoner dies after the first 24 hours in your care everyone* in the colony gets a bad thought. In order to make human leather you need to butcher the corpse. Butchering a human corpse gives everyone* in the colony a bad thought. Actually wearing clothing made from human leather will give a bad thought for each piece worn. Eating human meat will give a bad thought. Seeing a corpse will give a bad thought. Most colonists will be happiest if you either kill attackers in battle (or finish the wounded off within 24 hours) and bury the corpse, or patch up prisoners and release them. Players who want war crimes lite will put the bodies of enemies in a garbage heap or a freezer instead of burying them, and let the dogs and/or pigs eat human corpses. As long as colonists don't have to see the corpses they won't mind that they are getting eaten by animals. But human leather hats are not a thing that is fine and good. *Not actually everyone. Psychopath trait prevents bad thoughts from death, corpses, organ harvesting, slavery, and so on, because they are loving psychopaths. Bloodlust trait protects from bad thoughts from strangers deaths, and gives a positive mood from killing. They also start a lot of social fights. Cannibal trait is fine with butchering human corpses, and gets a happy thought from wearing human leather clothes or eating human meat. These traits are more common in the game than in a functional society, but not common enough for you to have a whole colony of psychopaths.
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Oct 30, 2019 21:42
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Sankis posted:Official forums, especially a cult favorite game, can also be kinda bad for finding out stuff like that. Don't upset or distract the CREATOR with your talk of imbalances. I can handle it just fine maybe you need to get better. It isn't - the bigger problem over there is too many people want to tell him exactly how the game should be run - from demanding features he doesn't want to get into ("YOU MUST ADD SEWAGE AS A LIQUID SO WE HAVE TO MANAGE IT!!"), through the handling of the code ("CLOSED SOURCE IS AN ABOMINATION! THE POWER OF STALLMAN COMPELS YOU TO RELEASE IT!"), and demands for pet priorities ("YOU MUST DROP EVERYTHING TO GIVE ME A NEW INTERFACE. I COMMAND IT!"). Then there's the creepy factor, which is really loud even if it makes up a very small part of the playerbase. The mermaid farming was only the tip of that particular spire, alas.
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Oct 30, 2019 22:10
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im several pages late but i hope you all have checked out the actual dragon ball z mod http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=100799.0
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Oct 30, 2019 22:22
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Ambaire posted:The weird thing about these forums is that farming prisoners for organs and human skin in RimWorld is considered fine and good, but drowning mermen immediately escalates to top tier what the gently caress. I see no difference. It's just a game, anyway. From what I understand, he devalued their bones. He didn't stop you from committing merfolk genocide, he only stopped it from being profitable. You can wax philosophic about what that says about the author. There are a lot of hot takes to take away from it. But he isn't stopping you from fulfilling your sociopathic desires or your desire for wealth, only when the two intersect over intelligent life.
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Oct 31, 2019 05:37
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Freakazoid_ posted:From what I understand, he devalued their bones. He didn't stop you from committing merfolk genocide, he only stopped it from being profitable. It's important to be able to distinguish games and real life. Someone may enjoy doing something in a game that they would never even consider in real life.
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Oct 31, 2019 08:11
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Ambaire posted:It's important to be able to distinguish games and real life. Someone may enjoy doing something in a game that they would never even consider in real life. I love to be a horrible late stage capitalist in video games, walkin around with half of the world's total currency in my pocket
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Oct 31, 2019 14:01
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I don't know what ya'll are talking about, I randomly run into pedestrians and punch them both in GTA and IRL.
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Oct 31, 2019 14:09
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Facebook Aunt posted:It's not 'fine and good'. From a gameplay perspective the negative traits of Dr. Mengele are wiped out by placing the organ harvesting farm one tile over in a organ harvesting camp. Problem solved.
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Oct 31, 2019 20:01
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Dunite posted:From a gameplay perspective the negative traits of Dr. Mengele are wiped out by placing the organ harvesting farm one tile over in a organ harvesting camp. historically realistic if true e: realpost; i think its completely fair of toady to ignore input. df is not really a game in itself, its a weird complicated procedural fantasy generator that toady is obsessed with making - adventure mode and fortress mode are just clunky ways to play around with it. toady is a strange and wonderful artist who imo should be allowed to finish his mad dream in peace and also hopefully not die like gaudi Nosfereefer fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 31, 2019 |
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Oct 31, 2019 20:09
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to most of its players, dwarf fortress is in fact a game, and even when you're just trying to interact with the fantasy sim element actually getting that information is obtuse and difficult
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Oct 31, 2019 22:45
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IronicDongz posted:to most of its players, dwarf fortress is in fact a game, and even when you're just trying to interact with the fantasy sim element actually getting that information is obtuse and difficult This particular discussion is eternal and will always involve people yelling past each other and will keep coming up forever every time new patch notes are released, even in 2075 when all remaining human life exists solely in the DF simulation and Armok/Robo-Toady comes down from on high with slabs engraved 'vomit viscosity lowered to deter its use as poor man's webbing' and 'stress system overhauled to finally strike the balance between listless complacency and abject misery' and 'fixed flammable toenails'. I feel that it would, as ever, be nice if Toady were a little more confident in off-loading some of the background mechanical work to someone else, so that pathfinding lag and item memory leak and depression spiral and cthonic fort mode UI stuff could be tweaked for playability without affecting his end of things, and maybe the Steam release will make that an easier proposition if it goes well. He does have an incentive to make the game elements...more like a playable game, at this point; it just seems like the ideal balance would be project management overhaul to permit him to do his wild auteur vision while someone with, I dunno, a greater passion for the game elements gets to gamify it a little at the end of the pipeline. It's just this weird chicken-and-egg problem where he would need to find someone he trusts, hire them, and still have enough runway to overhaul the project enough to allow them to actually do that job so that it's easier and more profitable to actually sell as a game. And I can't speak for Tarn, I have no idea if that model appeals to him or is compatible with his personality. It at least feels like the obvious solution to me, although that gives me the worrying impression that I am then laughably, impressively wrong.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:11
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He has opensourced bits and bobs from DF in the past to get other people to code drop-in better versions of them.
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Nov 1, 2019 00:46
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This actually got me to register at their forums... reading that thread told me so much about how I was doing things wrong. I was usually abandoning forts out of boredom around year 3-4 so I guess I never saw things get really bad, but I was encountering the problems they described. It seems they'd take most of the edge off if they made dwarfs-in-general more likely to actually loving socialize, forget bad poo poo somewhat more easily, and actually pop from eating masterwork meals. You do want the ability to have weird chaos erupt, it's more that this is an inevitable entropy that doesn't make diegetic sense (if all dwarfs in your fort seem to inevitably go insane within ten years, how did dwarfs make it the first hundred years?)
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Nov 1, 2019 04:03
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Do Dwarfs no longer get desensitized to trauma over time?
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Nov 1, 2019 12:30
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FreudianSlippers posted:Do Dwarfs no longer get desensitized to trauma over time? I've seen it happen still, at least for seeing death/dead bodies but I think it depends on the dwarf's personality how fast it'll happen, if it ever does at all. Also trauma and needs are different things. Like if they don't socialize regularly they'll get a negative thought from that, and they don't prioritize doing things like that really at all. The biggest killer if you go up on the surface at all might actually be the negative thoughts associated with being in the rain or snow and then remembering the horrible trauma of being rained on. That one may be just about impossible to get acclimated to since dwarfs start out disliking nature, too. I think another problem besides it being too easy to get negative thoughts and too hard to get positive ones is that the whole system is obscured. If you play adventure mode it's really clear what specific personality traits correspond to what needs the adventurer has but as far as I know there's no way to see that in fortress mode and if the game is intentionally supposed to be more about managing individual dwarf's needs now it needs to be. GokuGoesSSj69 fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Nov 1, 2019 |
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Nov 1, 2019 14:14
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Toady said in his latest statement on the subject that a couple of dwarves running from every battle in terror and getting PTSD was the game working as intended -- which already suggests a wild disconnect between how most players imagine and play the game and what he has in mind (and what's actually fun). And that's before you get down to the much more nitty-gritty issues like the fact that even a totally desensitized dwarf can never be immunized against seeing your corpse stockpile, due to the sheer volume of small bad thoughts it generates.
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Nov 1, 2019 15:47
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Tunicate posted:He has opensourced bits and bobs from DF in the past to get other people to code drop-in better versions of them. As I recall, the front-end graphical display was outsourced, yeah, which lead to a huge boost in performance. If he's been doing that for other pieces as well, I remain hopeful that he can find someone to help preen the final presentation product. I ain't gonna be one of the weirdos yelling at him about it, but I won't deny that I would love a less temperamental release that looks and performs better, even if that only happened periodically at major releases. I'm content to wait a couple of years between stable builds, that's kind of been the journey so far. FreudianSlippers posted:Do Dwarfs no longer get desensitized to trauma over time? They can, but I'm pretty sure it's all HEAVILY dependent on their personality metrics now, and a dwarf exposed to something they really loathe can end up really stewing on that one negative thought forever until they finally go insane (be it encountering a particular pest, the death of a loved one, sunlight from the mandatory above-ground portion of their travel to your fort, miasma exposure from the one time they passed by your refuse stockpile, seeing the body of a kobold that hasn't been cleaned up because it arrived minutes before your migrant wave, etc). This seems to lead to the unfortunate result that optimal play means thoroughly screening every dwarf in your fortress for resilient frontier personalities, and rejecting anyone with potential issues. Even then, a long-term fort is going to have issues as dwarves lose friends and loved ones, and then if you have to eject an older fortress member, it's going to start making their friends and family at the fort upset, and so on. It can also mean micro-managing some dwarves, because they have personalities where they don't look after their own needs very well; loners who piss themselves off hanging out in the taverns, workaholics who refuse to take breaks even though they love downtime, family dwarves who spend so much time in the temple they begin to resent their lack of social interaction... It's all like a very long-tail tantrum spiral that sets a countdown on every fort. GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:I think another problem besides it being too easy to get negative thoughts and too hard to get positive ones is that the whole system is obscured. If you play adventure mode it's really clear what specific personality traits correspond to what needs the adventurer has but as far as I know there's no way to see that in fortress mode and if the game is intentionally supposed to be more about managing individual dwarf's needs now it needs to be. This too is an issue. Unless you're screening all your dwarves and taking notes, the first sign you've got a problem may be a dwarf suddenly going berserk and killing the beloved town drunk, and now you've got murdered friend negative thoughts and miasma negative thoughts and got into a fight negative thoughts and witnessed a fight negative thoughts and saw a body negative thoughts and potentially 'endured the decay of a loved one' negative thoughts and missing family negative thoughts and at that point it's way too much to capably deal with with the current toolset. Your best defense at present is an obscene amount of system mastery, perusing the personality screen for every single dwarf, and exiling unhappy or neurodiverse dwarves, which seems less than ideal for several reasons. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Toady said in his latest statement on the subject that a couple of dwarves running from every battle in terror and getting PTSD was the game working as intended -- which already suggests a wild disconnect between how most players imagine and play the game and what he has in mind (and what's actually fun). And this as well. Fortress Mode is, somewhat unfortunately, a secondary consideration in Toady's mind, which is fine but for the fact that it's the play element that probably gets the most use. There's probably lots of little fixes that would be nice for playability, but don't generate nearly as many insane stories of hilarious failure, and so they've probably not even occurred to Toady. If I've interpreted his past posts correctly, I got the impression that he's worried the project wouldn't be uniquely his own and wouldn't motivate him if the end product had to be aimed at playability, but that's another argument in favor of him hiring some kind of developer who can clean up stable distributions, if anything. Fake edit: I just realized I basically woke up and then spent an hour writing and editing a post about DF, this better not be full of factual inaccuracies and grammatical errors, drat it.
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Nov 1, 2019 16:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Toady said in his latest statement on the subject that a couple of dwarves running from every battle in terror and getting PTSD was the game working as intended -- which already suggests a wild disconnect between how most players imagine and play the game and what he has in mind (and what's actually fun). I actually like the way dwarves minds are working for the most part, I just wish there was a way to help them manage their stresses better. Like a therapist, or medicine. Civvies and rookie dwarves *should* freak out when confronted with combat and death. poo poo's hosed, yo.
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Nov 1, 2019 20:18
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I mean bartender is already implemented as occupation now we just need to make him cheer up ptsd-ridden wrecks that come to the tavern. “Urist mcPTSD cancels task: drowning her depression”
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Nov 1, 2019 20:30
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Yeah the problem isn't so much dwarfs being moody bitches, it's that the moody bitch death spiral is something that builds up steam inevitably but isn't going to be clear early enough to do anything about it, especially if you're not operating expertly. Ideally the moody bitch curve will be such that decent if not optimal play will be enough to keep things ticking over semi-indefinitely, in the absence of new disasters, and would allow from slow recovery from occasional disasters. At the moment I think that graphically illustrated story where 2 dwarves survived a forgotten beast emerging and were able to export mugs until migrants arrived would just not be possible any more, and that's a goddamn shame.
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Nov 1, 2019 21:59
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I would tend to agree that dwarven mood management is closer to right than it appears. I do like the 'tavernkeep as therapist' idea, and it would be cool to see that for priests/temple performers as well, but I also would like to see, well, maybe something along the lines of actual dwarven counselors. Again, the study of mental illness and its treatment technically already exists in the game, in theory, but only as meaningless, disconnected study topics for the philosophers. Actually, that would be pretty neat from a game standpoint, and probably useful for the storytelling as well, if the profession dwarves for the tavern, temple, and libraries could all contribute to stress management, and it would encourage building complete, robust, well-staffed forts. Some dwarves might benefit more from speaking with therapists at the library, others by watching or consulting with temple performers, and still others would simply blubber to their bartender. It would give you a reason to care about who you put into those positions, and keeping them happy and well-supplied in order to effectively do their jobs. It doesn't seem like too much would need to change; the activity zone occupations would just need to be able to remove and/or immunize other dwarves against bad thoughts. Nessus posted:At the moment I think that graphically illustrated story where 2 dwarves survived a forgotten beast emerging and were able to export mugs until migrants arrived would just not be possible any more, and that's a goddamn shame. Depends largely on having the right two dwarves survive (and getting slabs engraved for everyone else before their vengeful ghosts start tearing them apart within one to four weeks). Shady Amish Terror fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Nov 1, 2019 |
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Nov 1, 2019 22:26
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Depends largely on having the right two dwarves survive (and getting slabs engraved for everyone else before their vengeful ghosts start tearing them apart within one to four weeks).
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Nov 1, 2019 22:38
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Nessus posted:So practically speaking, not possible, is what you're saying here I honestly haven't tested to see what the odds are. It is absolutely an rng-dependent uphill battle at the least.
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Nov 1, 2019 22:55
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The tavern needs more dedicated furniture, I want a bar with taps and stools
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Nov 1, 2019 23:00
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I will not rest until you can replicate an entire episode of Cheers
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Nov 2, 2019 00:41
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Ted Danson cancels serve liquor: interrupted by demon
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Nov 2, 2019 01:07
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it would be interesting to see many different ways it could go- like- maybe one dwarf deals with it through drinking and talking to a bartender, another prays, yet another goes blackpill and could be a problem in other ways, and of course some still just bug out- more of a simmering set of problems than an explosion of death spirals that said I hope toady never compromises his vision for the paltry sake of, 'fun'
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Nov 2, 2019 02:28
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I got back into it shortly after he'd introduced Z layers and had some fun, though now every time I check in it feels like more and more poo poo's been added that's a gigantic pain in the rear end to deal with and nobody really seemed to ask for.
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Nov 2, 2019 07:46
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Thompsons posted:I got back into it shortly after he'd introduced Z layers and had some fun, though now every time I check in it feels like more and more poo poo's been added that's a gigantic pain in the rear end to deal with and nobody really seemed to ask for. I feel like at the moment we're in a weird limbo where fortress mode is full of a lot of random odds and ends and adventure mode hasn't quite had the work done to be really robust and fun. I'm probably going to give adv mode a good go after this next release!
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Nov 2, 2019 08:53
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Thompsons posted:I got back into it shortly after he'd introduced Z layers and had some fun, though now every time I check in it feels like more and more poo poo's been added that's a gigantic pain in the rear end to deal with and nobody really seemed to ask for. Yeah, there's been back-and-forth seesawing between adding cool things/fixing bad things and adding new features/changing existing features in ways that aren't quite fully baked yet, and because of Toady's...uniquely personal dev style, when something in the builds IS a problem, it can remain a problem for a very, very long time. I do expect things to get spruced up some soonish; ToadyOne has been looking at feedback from players in anticipation of getting the Steam release in a presentable sale state.
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Nov 2, 2019 16:02
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God I hope he makes military less opaque. It's been my bane for ages now
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Nov 2, 2019 17:22
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Peanut Butler posted:it would be interesting to see many different ways it could go- like- maybe one dwarf deals with it through drinking and talking to a bartender, another prays, yet another goes blackpill and could be a problem in other ways, and of course some still just bug out- more of a simmering set of problems than an explosion of death spirals Yeah see the depression etc. would be fine if the dwarves had a coping mechanism by and large. But they don't' so essentially tantrum/depression spirals become this physical manifestation of entropy.
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Nov 2, 2019 17:55
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The Locations update was cool I like having library's and taverns where people hang out.
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Nov 2, 2019 18:04
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Playing Rimworld makes me wish DF focused more on being a game since 0.23.
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Nov 3, 2019 23:15
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Kruggsmash is awesome, but in case anyone's not mentioned it, RPS have been doing a good old-fashioned screenshot LP for DF, which is pretty good fun so far. They finished up season 1 a little while back, and it should be starting up again soon.
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Nov 4, 2019 02:51
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If I were going to watch one Kruggsmash fort, which should it be? I started a few minutes of Steelclutches earlier today before realizing he has a bunch of them, and also that Steelclutches apparently has four parts 
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Nov 4, 2019 03:10
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