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So... Judd for sure orchestrated the White Night to kill off and force into retirement all the progressive cops so he could stock the ranks with 7K members, right? And if Keene is involved, well that sure sounds like a vast and insidious conspiracy to me.
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Nov 4, 2019 11:48
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Scooter_McCabe posted:I have a feeling Laurie is actually worse than Ozymandias at this point, she just hasn't a chance to truly prove it. Totally different psychologies, I would say shes become a nihlist like her dad, but even her dad still balked at Ozy's plot. I enjoyed how the phone booth scenes were framed with a big blue thing blocking the side as if shes talking to an indifferent dr manhattan. Initially I thought that this was some special government transmitter or something before I got that these are probably in every city for losers to use. massive spider fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 11:58
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jeremy irons' american accent is so powerful
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Nov 4, 2019 12:03
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feedmyleg posted:So... Judd for sure orchestrated the White Night to kill off and force into retirement all the progressive cops so he could stock the ranks with 7K members, right? And if Keene is involved, well that sure sounds like a vast and insidious conspiracy to me. I don't know if I buy that, or if that is what it ends up being I'd feel like it wasn't properly supported. All the rank and file busting heads in Nixon town were turncoats? All the ones involved in black site interrogation and torture of their own ranks? Superhuman discipline.
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Nov 4, 2019 12:26
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lurker2006 posted:I don't know if I buy that, or if that is what it ends up being I'd feel like it wasn't properly supported. All the rank and file busting heads in Nixon town were turncoats? All the ones involved in black site interrogation and torture of their own ranks? Superhuman discipline. I think it's much more like the Senator and is underlings are more playing a long game to use the legal vigilantes to drum up support for his career. Getting from a new senator to president takes some years, so you engineer a crisis that you solves, and becomes a victim and a hero all in one shot. Tulsa is a proof of concept. Now if you are a white power true believer is besides the point, you use them for your own gains. Much like certain politicians have been doing now. Rocksicles fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 12:34
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Midgetskydiver posted:I can't escape knowing the context that this show creator thinks progressive and regressive governments inevitably end up creating equally undesirable dystopias. I watched the pilot not knowing this and enjoyed it, but now that it's in my mind I just can't unsee it. I don’t know that we’ve seen any leftists or leftist ideas in the show? It seems to be a fantasy version of our real, horrible world that runs just about as well. Maybe there is slightly less tolerance for white supremacist terrorists?
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Nov 4, 2019 12:37
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Rocksicles posted:I think it's much more like the Senator and is underlings are more playing a long game to use the legal vigilantes to drum up support for his career. Getting from a new senator to president takes some years, so you engineer a crisis that you solves, and becomes a victim and a hero all in one shot. Tulsa is a proof of concept. Now if you are a white power true believer is besides the point, you use them for your own gains. Much like certain politicians have been doing now. Yeah if there is a conspiracy you don't let the goons in on it, you use them as useful idiots.
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Nov 4, 2019 13:08
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I'd be way more sympathetic to the whole "both-sidesim" argument if it wasn't for the central thesis of the show, right down to the title, very clearly being "having human beings be above accountability is always bad" which is objectively correct. Commentary on universal human nature transcends ideological lines. Also there's a big difference between leftism and liberalism. It's not like the world of the show is a socialist one and we're seeing breadlines or whatever.
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Nov 4, 2019 13:36
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I was a bit meh on this, but episode 3 has me totally sold. I want to see where this is going.
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Nov 4, 2019 13:40
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Yeah, I really only see third-way liberalism and conservatism on the show so far. Even Sister Night is currently a liberal.
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Nov 4, 2019 13:41
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I'd be way more sympathetic to the whole "both-sidesim" argument if it wasn't for the central thesis of the show, right down to the title, very clearly being "having human beings be above accountability is always bad" which is objectively correct. Commentary on universal human nature transcends ideological lines. Also there's a big difference between leftism and liberalism. It's not like the world of the show is a socialist one and we're seeing breadlines or whatever. I mean you can swing the sword left or right in this show and stab someone in the dick. There hasn't really been an explanation about the gun control, whether it was a Oklahoma thing because of White Night, or It's been orchestrated by the Senator to depower and put the police at risk for his own gain. Is it a police state or are the police being used I think using left and right analogies for some of the things in the show is setting yourself up to have your moral high ground pulled out from under you.
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Nov 4, 2019 14:03
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t know that we’ve seen any leftists or leftist ideas in the show? It seems to be a fantasy version of our real, horrible world that runs just about as well. Maybe there is slightly less tolerance for white supremacist terrorists? At the very least, the creators of the show consider locking gun permissions and giving reparations as products of a liberal regime. But certainly nobody reads as a progressive on the show except maybe Panda, with his 5 seconds of screentime.
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Nov 4, 2019 14:30
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feedmyleg posted:At the very least, the creators of the show consider locking gun permissions and giving reparations as products of a liberal regime. But certainly nobody reads as a progressive on the show except maybe Panda, with his 5 seconds of screentime. The thing about that though is that reparations haven't been put in a negative light at all, and the guns being locked away isn't really a solution because as shown on screen it's more of a formality to bypass than an actual safeguard.
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Nov 4, 2019 14:36
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Judd Crawford was hanged, Dr. Manhattan was hung.
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Nov 4, 2019 14:50
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t know that we’ve seen any leftists or leftist ideas in the show? It seems to be a fantasy version of our real, horrible world that runs just about as well. Maybe there is slightly less tolerance for white supremacist terrorists? This show’s entire thesis is basically centrism is the only good ideology. It will never show any actual real leftist ideas in good faith
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Nov 4, 2019 14:58
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I for one , go to the show involving a fantasy world where a giant squid kills millions of people for my political commentary
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Nov 4, 2019 15:06
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Same, but without the lovely sarcasm.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:07
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The REAL Goobusters posted:This show’s entire thesis is basically centrism is the only good ideology. It will never show any actual real leftist ideas in good faith It's this, at least for me. The show hasn't given any screen time to portraying reparations as a Good Thing, which they are. The only consequences for reparations in this world are extremely negative (they inspire extreme racist violence and terrorism, and contribute to a huge cultural / ethnic divide that's tearing the nation apart). Same with a largely disarmed police force. The only consequence shown has been to enable said terrorists to gleefully and off handedly murder cops while the naive limp wristed liberal (Panda) sits in the rear and enables said murder. No discussion about how citizens not being shot in their own homes by police might be a net gain for society. Maybe I'm wrong and these discussions will be had in the remaining episodes but it isn't looking good right now. Lindelof's interviews are not a good sign either, with his now multiple references to "both sides". And spare me the notion that politics shouldn't be a prevalent topic of discussion in this show. Of all the possible positions to have this thread that one is probably the only one that's truly wrong.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:22
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It's odd because while I'm absolutely buying that Damon Lindelof is a chucklefuck dipshit, I feel the question of the show's ideology is complicated because of the contents of the show itself? The show keeps saying America under Redford is this hyper-liberal utopia, the cops are fighting white supremacy, content warnings on TV are so long they veer into caricature, and everything else the show has done so far, BUT, also, there's a giant conspiracy afoot, the sheriff was a literal closeted klansman, and a lot of powerful interests seem invested in rewriting history to their benefit. I'd like to raise the possibility of a reading of the show that says "liberalism, rather than addressing the structural causes of atrocities like Greenwood, would rather paper them over with extreme prejudice, putting a nice little smiley face on it"; I have no idea whether that's going anywhere, but I'm willing to give Watchmen the benefit of the doubt at least through its second third.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:24
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ElNarez posted:It's odd because while I'm absolutely buying that Damon Lindelof is a chucklefuck dipshit, I feel the question of the show's ideology is complicated because of the contents of the show itself? The show keeps saying America under Redford is this hyper-liberal utopia, the cops are fighting white supremacy, content warnings on TV are so long they veer into caricature, and everything else the show has done so far, BUT, also, there's a giant conspiracy afoot, the sheriff was a literal closeted klansman, and a lot of powerful interests seem invested in rewriting history to their benefit.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:35
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Midgetskydiver posted:It's this, at least for me. The show hasn't given any screen time to portraying reparations as a Good Thing, which they are. The only consequences for reparations in this world are extremely negative (they inspire extreme racist violence and terrorism, and contribute to a huge cultural / ethnic divide that's tearing the nation apart). At teh same time I would think a viewer should be able to recognise the benefit of financially empowering black people as a good thing in its own without needing to be directly shown Good Consequences. I mean the good consequences of reparations would be stuff like stability thats hard to convey since its an absence of strife in the lives of black people, showing Angelas nice home and white adopted kid is as close as you can get. The bad faith, racist argument against reparations would be stuff like "it makes black people lazy" of which we've seen no evidence, or that the original crime justifying it wasn't that bad of which the show has presented contrary evidence. The argument that it would make white people resentful however is kinda true.
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Nov 4, 2019 15:41
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That episode was probably the most enjoyable, but it was also stuffed to the brim with ham-fisted exposition for people who haven't read or have forgotten the comic. "Gentlemen, I've gathered you all in this briefing room to confirm the well known history of the world we currently inhabit"
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Nov 4, 2019 15:50
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Steve2911 posted:That episode was probably the most enjoyable, but it was also stuffed to the brim with ham-fisted exposition for people who haven't read or have forgotten the comic. Yeah, but without that scene she couldn't pick her Scully
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Nov 4, 2019 15:55
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They are trying to set up that the partner might be involved in some shady poo poo right? He included the page from the Rorschach journal in the slideshow and then they focused on it on his nightstand. Unless it's just that they are trying to establish his ideology.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:05
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The Dave posted:They are trying to set up that the partner might be involved in some shady poo poo right? He included the page from the Rorschach journal in the slideshow and then they focused on it on his nightstand. No, I think Petey just wanted context. The 7th is inspired by Rorschach, including the journal page is showing part of their beliefs, especially since one of, if not the preceding image was a 7th in his mask. That the superior dismissed and ridiculed it shows how off base that guy was.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:31
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clown shoes posted:Judd Crawford was hanged, Dr. Manhattan was hung. 
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Nov 4, 2019 16:47
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Just going to let the text of the show speak for itself and not listen to a word Lindelof says outside of the filmed episodes.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:49
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Midgetskydiver posted:It's this, at least for me. The show hasn't given any screen time to portraying reparations as a Good Thing, which they are. The only consequences for reparations in this world are extremely negative (they inspire extreme racist violence and terrorism, and contribute to a huge cultural / ethnic divide that's tearing the nation apart). These things really seem like third-way liberal solutions that do nothing to fix the actual problems. Despite rules governing how they shoot people, the police are clearly portrayed as amoral thugs who turn dogs on people and black-bag them to secret torture prisons. The dogs especially are evocative of nazis and the stasi, as well as state violence used against the civil rights movement in the US. The whole secret torture dungeon from this episode looked like Abu Ghraib. The cops stand in formation while watching the terrorist video in the pilot, which is an extremely fascist visual right out of Leni Riefenstahl. Also the police chief is pretty clearly part of a fascist conspiracy that feeds and uses the terrorists. And there are ways of providing reparation that would do nothing to fix racism that most advocates of reparation are careful to warn about. Reparation would be good if done correctly, but it remains to be seen if it was done well in this world. Plenty of reactionaries are in favor of reparations because that would allow them pretense to dismantle civil rights laws and yell the n-word. We know the senator here is probably a reactionary if not a fascist conspirator. It seems like a third-way liberal utopia where real solutions are as impossible to find as they are in our lovely world, ie a dystopia.
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Nov 4, 2019 16:53
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So far the farthest the show has gone to say is "authoritarianism bad" and it's a little fangless and smells a whiff of neo-liberlism creeping into how much the story can say Shows good tho
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Nov 4, 2019 16:56
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I think i hate this thread...
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Nov 4, 2019 16:58
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clown shoes posted:Judd Crawford was hanged, Dr. Manhattan was hung. Thread title please
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Nov 4, 2019 17:03
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Rocksicles posted:I think i hate this thread... it’s not great
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Nov 4, 2019 17:06
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We do see at least one obvious consequence of reparations in the first episode, that Angela used hers to buy the soon-to-open bakery she uses as a cover story. I also noticed, during the briefing on Angela, there's a line about her kids at the bottom that's always cut off by the one agent's head. I wonder when we're going to learn more about their situation Also, what the hell was with all the dirty looks Cal was flinging Laurie? Between that and him vanishing on the White Night, something is totally up.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:09
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massive spider posted:
This is a really good point and I'll have to stew on it a bit. People will do drive by thread shits like they always will and whine about how bad the thread is, but I think the discussion here has been really positive and thoughtful for the most part.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:33
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feedmyleg posted:So... Judd for sure orchestrated the White Night to kill off and force into retirement all the progressive cops so he could stock the ranks with 7K members, right? And if Keene is involved, well that sure sounds like a vast and insidious conspiracy to me. my only question about keene is whether he knew that laurie would cap that racist at the funeral or not. he's clearly involved with the Kavalry and incredibly clearly was involved in the creation of that plan at the funeral, but i just don't know whether he was expecting to be kidnapped before he heroically with the aid of police went and killed all the bad racists or if he knew that the dude would blow up and he'd get to look like a brave soul for surviving that terrible episode also i loved the joy that Laurie took in calling Looking Glass' big fancy bubble a "racist detector"
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Nov 4, 2019 17:41
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massive spider posted:At teh same time I would think a viewer should be able to recognise the benefit of financially empowering black people as a good thing in its own without needing to be directly shown Good Consequences. I feel like the FBI supervisor called this out explicitly in the briefing scene, apparently the reparations led to a specific migration of black Americans to Tulsa and a new wave of prosperity and business there, possibly to the point of restarting the Greenwood ideal. The reparations didn't make anyone lazy, it opened up the floodgates of productivity and prosperity for this group, and that mirrors the situation that sparked the 1921 attack. It would play really neatly into the writers' emerging theme of generational cycles and continuous strife. Immanentized fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 17:45
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Mameluke posted:We do see at least one obvious consequence of reparations in the first episode, that Angela used hers to buy the soon-to-open bakery she uses as a cover story. is there reason to think there's more to her kids? we already know they were her partner's children, and she adopted them after they were orphaned during the White Night.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:47
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After seeing last night's episode, I'm pretty convinced that Adrian Veidt is being held against his will and gradually going stir-crazy, eventually making the decision that he needs to escape. Each interlude we see with him is misleading because I think we're getting glimpses of sequential years of his confinement (hence the birthday cakes, or whatever) The whole low-tech spacesuit thing makes sense if it's Dr Manhattan that's got him locked up in some kind of magical prison on Mars. The clues for this are in the first episode where we see him conjuring up a structure that looks a lot like the castle we see Adrian living in. It could ALSO maybe Antarctica, but I think Mars will be a better reveal. It could also be a misdirection, after seeing the giant "Millennium Clock" that was built after that person bought Veidt's company and made that "behold my works and despair" quote at it's groundbreaking ceremony. We don't know what it does or why it was built, but it could be some kind of portal or extra-dimensional prison that no one understands the true purpose of. Either way, I'm really enjoying this show. The "killed by space junk" title is a hilarious play on words almost definitely referring to Dr Manhattan's blue space junk.
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Nov 4, 2019 17:51
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The preview of the next episode makes it look like he's going to build a life sized version of that catapult thing he had on his desk and, I don't know, catapult clone test subjects into space.
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Nov 4, 2019 18:04
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AwkwardKnob posted:It could also be a misdirection, after seeing the giant "Millennium Clock" that was built after that person bought Veidt's company and made that "behold my works and despair" quote at it's groundbreaking ceremony. We don't know what it does or why it was built, but it could be some kind of portal or extra-dimensional prison that no one understands the true purpose of. "what if the Veidt scenes aren't concurrent with the Tulsa story" is the question I've been asking myself
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Nov 4, 2019 18:21
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