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GimpInBlack posted:Eh... from what I recall, the God of Abraham is present and a major power player, but not the be-all and end-all. The Swords of the Cross are ostensibly powered by the nails from the Crucifixion, but every time they turn up the books do go out of their way to say the Swords respond to goodness and faith in something that aims for the betterment of humanity that doesn't have to be Jesus. this kind of 'well, generalized goodness and belief all ends up the same' thing being generally equated to religiosity and the "default" setting being Christian is extremely Christian as a take, tho, and indeed defining religion purely through "belief" and "faith" is a heavily Christian take. I'm an atheist and a Jew and there's not actually a conflict between those two statements. Religions differ and boiling them all down to 'well, general goodness and faith in something' is super fuckin' Christian. (And Christian atheist, though they often tend to reject all religiosity as bad.) e: Dresden's take, as a note, is very Christian. A Jewish or Muslim take on God and the angels would be extremely different, and either would be much closer to the other than they would be to the way Dresden does it. e2: This isn't to say you couldn't have a universalist God that embraced all goodness regardless of tradition and have it be done in a way that wasn't Very Christian. You can! But Dresden's is Very Christian. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Nov 4, 2019 |
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Nov 4, 2019 21:07
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it's actually extremely specifically American Protestant Christian, in which goodness is sola fides - it's all about having faith and believing and being nice and inherently good. Which is utter nonsense from a Jewish perspective - for Judaism, goodness is action. It doesn't matter how strong you believe or how nice you are if you don't perform the deeds required of good people. But that'd be WORKS SALVATION to American Protestant Christianity and is thus anathema, and has kind of generally been absorbed even by not particularly denominational or practicing American Christians as how goodness works.
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Nov 4, 2019 21:25
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Mors Rattus posted:it's actually extremely specifically American Protestant Christian, in which goodness is sola fides - it's all about having faith and believing and being nice and inherently good. Which is utter nonsense from a Jewish perspective - for Judaism, goodness is action. It doesn't matter how strong you believe or how nice you are if you don't perform the deeds required of good people. But that'd be WORKS SALVATION to American Protestant Christianity and is thus anathema, and has kind of generally been absorbed even by not particularly denominational or practicing American Christians as how goodness works. Huh, I never realized the "Actually do good poo poo, don't just talk about it" thing comes from Judaism. I always assumed that was just part of my mom's interpretation of catholicism that I grew up with. Also as a former Catholic, I just need to say the Protestants are DOING IT WRONG. 
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Nov 4, 2019 21:48
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The Letter of James in the New Testament specifically says 'faith without works is a dead thing'. The tension between the necessity of doing good deeds and trying to live righteously vs. depending on the intercession of God goes way, way back and has some of its roots in the fact that Christianity began its life as an apocalyptic sect that believed Christ's return was extremely imminent. The best way I can put it is that the very early Jesus Movement (not really appropriate to call them Christianity early, they still contextualized themselves as a Jewish sect originally) had a ton of different ways of thinking about itself since nothing was settled and there was no real orthodoxy, but Paul's letters and works ended up being incredibly influential since he was one of the most successful missionaries. And he mostly thought your goal was to get over the finish line in order to be in the right state if and when Christ returned, which is also tied up with his desire to minister outside of normal Jewish circles (his best successes being with the neighbors of Jewish communities in the Hellenistic diaspora, who knew what the hell he was talking about and might be interested in a way to get in on this). Faith vs. Works is one of those things that has been debated since Jesus was executed and his followers first started deciding what the hell they were going to do now.
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Nov 4, 2019 21:58
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Faith vs Works is a Christian argument; for Judaism, the matter is settled: do good works, not because it's about salvation, but because it's about good works. Salvation's not really a thing Jews worry about, and it has no bearing on your afterlife except maybe in the distant theoretical future in which maybe all good people are granted bodily resurrection. The thing is, that part's not important. It's not a focus of Jewish faith or practice. You do good works because it's the Law. Because that's what you're supposed to do, because they are good.
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Nov 4, 2019 22:08
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Oh, yes, I was just talking about it in its Christian sense and how it's been there from the start as one of the fundamental arguments within the faith. Also, notably Paul was also very eager to genuinely break with Judaism.
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Nov 4, 2019 22:10
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Night10194 posted:Oh, yes, I was just talking about it in its Christian sense and how it's been there from the start as one of the fundamental arguments within the faith. Ah, Paul. You motherfucker. Yeah, Paul wanted to get away from Judaism and, for all that Christianity often presents him as a Jewish religious scholar, seemed to have almost no knowledge of what Jewish thought of the time was. e: it's also fun to note that Jesus never met Paul. Ever. Paul was such a huge influence on early Christianity and almost all for the worse. Sex-negativity, body-negativity, misogyny... gently caress Paul.
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Nov 4, 2019 22:13
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Evangelical radio reeeeaaaaallly wants people to get into the Doctrine of Election and it's fuuuuuuucked up. the worst part of Calvinism and we're bringing it back to stop the goddamn libruls.
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Nov 4, 2019 22:45
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Mors Rattus posted:Ah, Paul. You motherfucker. This is why I feel comfortable applying Paul’s one good maxim - ‘test all things, keep that which is good’ - to everything else the blighter wrote. Non-Pauline Christianity is heretical as gently caress these days but the only way to go, even though it requires a great deal of creative interpretations and bothering rabbis.
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Nov 5, 2019 00:26
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I mean say what you will about the oWoD, it did try to bring in jewish and muslim stuff into their games, as well asvarious occult traditions and historical heresies.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:15
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joylessdivision posted:Huh, I never realized the "Actually do good poo poo, don't just talk about it" thing comes from Judaism. I always assumed that was just part of my mom's interpretation of catholicism that I grew up with. It's reinforced in the Gospels too (this is from Matthew): quote:1“Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. There's a lot of that kind of thing around if you're looking for it, it doesn't take much interpretation. The trick is emphasis.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:20
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The idea behind Sola Fide is not that you shouldn't do good things, it's just that nothing any lowly, sinful human being does can ever truly earn their way into Heaven. God is an infinite, perfect being .Whether it's holding a door open for an old lady or curing Cancer, it's all equally nothing before such a being. Only God's love saves us because we are really that poo poo compared to God.MonsieurChoc posted:I mean say what you will about the oWoD, it did try to bring in jewish and muslim stuff into their games, as well asvarious occult traditions and historical heresies. The Roads/Paths are one of the best things about WoD to me. As you said many of them are based on real world faiths and I find that very intriguing just like how I enjoy nWoD's religious vampire factions.It beats the poo poo out of Humanity, IMO.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:32
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Mors Rattus posted:it's actually extremely specifically American Protestant Christian, in which goodness is sola fides - it's all about having faith and believing and being nice and inherently good. Which is utter nonsense from a Jewish perspective - for Judaism, goodness is action. It doesn't matter how strong you believe or how nice you are if you don't perform the deeds required of good people. But that'd be WORKS SALVATION to American Protestant Christianity and is thus anathema, and has kind of generally been absorbed even by not particularly denominational or practicing American Christians as how goodness works. That's interesting, because i always saw dresdens christianity as being fairly catholic. Murphy's catholic, and it certainly seems Michael is, what with all the shouting in latin he does - all the main religious people are Catholics. And the swords do not seem to respond to generalized goodness, as much as a combination as a certain faith or certainty with the will to act. See also: butters, the jewish knight of the cross and sanya, the.. agnostic? trotskyist knight of the cross. I agree with your general point that it's a very very christian worldview, and it seems clear that big-g God is bigger than odin and so on, both from what's in the books and from butcher's comments outside of them, but it doesn't seem that specifically protestant to me? then again, i've not grown up surrounded by american protestantism, so i might miss certain things.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:46
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There are a lot of American Catholics in my experience who are heavily protestant in like, cultural awareness terms, just from growing up in America. I took a course on Catholic stuff while scamming a free year of tuition at a Catholic university (it was mandatory) and the instructor (a convert) regularly had to tell people things like "no, the Church doesn't say you are DEFINITELY going to Hell, only that if you do it our way, you're definitely NOT going to Hell... God can, and may, extend his mercy, but..." To answer the question there has always been strong female representation in my gaming spaces, though the details have varied.
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Nov 5, 2019 04:54
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Nessus posted:There are a lot of American Catholics in my experience who are heavily protestant in like, cultural awareness terms, just from growing up in America. I had to be the one to teach my grandfather that the Catholic Church does not endorse the idea of the Rapture, which in fact is not in the Bible. There are a lot of old-time Catholics who were never educated in what their own church teaches, and just kind of absorbed what's around them.
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Nov 5, 2019 05:06
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Hey everyone, I received a report about this thread getting derailed into faithchat and given that the topic started with religion in the Dresden Files and has since moved on to general religions I'm going to request that it stop. There are plenty of places on the forums for that discussion; please keep this one for WoD.
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Nov 5, 2019 05:18
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Dresden is a Ventrue and his feeding restriction is he can only huff his own farts.
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Nov 5, 2019 05:20
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Since we're back to oWoD chat, remember everyone: Jesus was a sorceror CoG kinfolk who was embraced by the Lasombra and rejected Pauline christianity. It's canon, people, read your vampire werewolf wizard bible.
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Nov 5, 2019 06:59
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as someone who has made Magechat into a discussion of actual Gnostic traditions more than once I move that this is not a derail eitherLoomer posted:Since we're back to oWoD chat, remember everyone: Jesus was a sorceror CoG kinfolk who was embraced by the Lasombra and rejected Pauline christianity. It's canon, people, read your vampire werewolf wizard bible. particularly in this light
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Nov 5, 2019 07:22
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Sola Fide is extremely how the Father and Paternoster roll in Awakening. Though, uh, they specify that the perfect being far beyond any mortal efforts specifically only likes wizards, and Awakening is the form grace takes (and mages who sympathize with Sleepers are thus heretics and traitors to the Father, and must be converted or destroyed). They're amazingly terrible.
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Nov 5, 2019 07:44
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Loomer posted:Since we're back to oWoD chat, remember everyone: Jesus was a sorceror CoG kinfolk who was embraced by the Lasombra and rejected Pauline christianity. It's canon, people, read your vampire werewolf wizard bible. I really want to know what the talk between Lucifer and Jesus was. We know it happened, and Lucifer still hasn't quite goten over it two thousand years later. I also love how the top Ashirra got converted by Muhammad himself.
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Nov 5, 2019 07:50
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Dawgstar posted:Oh, they're AEW fans. Speaking as the player of a vampire who held several titles in the necropolis city wrestling federation, by writing strategies to refs who then STed fights against other player character wrestlers, well.. the crossover fanbase is clearly there, and that was all that was needed (in the nineties anyway). E: there were 5 federations in all during the nineries and aughts, and we met and recruited primarily on the official WW boards. Tias fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 09:59
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Tias posted:Speaking as the player of a vampire who held several titles in the necropolis city wrestling federation, by writing strategies to refs who then STed fights against other player character wrestlers, well.. the crossover fanbase is clearly there, and that was all that was needed (in the nineties anyway). It always delights me to think that Monday Night Wars-era Raw (and I guess Nitro) was water cooler television at White Wolf, and certainly you can see this in stuff like EL DIABLO VERDE's write up in Children of the Night. Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 11:42
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Loomer posted:Since we're back to oWoD chat, remember everyone: Jesus was a sorceror CoG kinfolk who was embraced by the Lasombra and rejected Pauline christianity. It's canon, people, read your vampire werewolf wizard bible. So you're saying my idea of making the Lancea a bloodline in Masquerade using the Longinus story isn't as far out as maybe first considered.
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Nov 5, 2019 18:39
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E: god drat double post mobile poo poo. joylessdivision fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 18:40
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joylessdivision posted:So you're saying my idea of making the Lancea a bloodline in Masquerade using the Longinus story isn't as far out as maybe first considered. The entire written holy book of the Lancea et Sanctum is available for free online. (Deleted) Complete with pedantic academic commentary. Edit: Whoops, it’s still being sold online. Don’t want to link to something that might be pirated. jakodee fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 5, 2019 |
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Nov 5, 2019 19:15
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e: whoops, missed beer's post in the scroll.
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Nov 5, 2019 20:24
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Mummy 2nd ed is now being kickstarted https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/339646881/mummy-the-curse-2nd-edition
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Nov 5, 2019 20:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocy8TseK88I
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Nov 5, 2019 20:38
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^^ this but ppl trying to figure out what the point of Mummy is
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Nov 5, 2019 20:40
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The point isn't the curse, but the cultists you recruited throughout the time that you experience non-linearly. That's not the point either. It's mostly about becoming human because being a mummy sucks but it's a weak game line. Ultimately, 
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Nov 5, 2019 22:49
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Geist 2E was a pretty significant re-invention of the gameline it came from. Mummy has even further to go but I'm at least tentatively optimistic.
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Nov 5, 2019 22:55
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I haven't taken a look at it yet, but I know Neall Price is writing for it. He's been a great boss on Scion and his personal work's really good. Hopefully, Mummy will be rehabbed enough that I'll actually want to play it.
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Nov 5, 2019 23:09
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Are they looking for freelancers for the Mummy line? Should I pull together a demo idea to pitch them?
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Nov 5, 2019 23:52
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Mors Rattus posted:I haven't taken a look at it yet, but I know Neall Price is writing for it. He's been a great boss on Scion and his personal work's really good. Yeah if anyone's going to find a good angle for Mummy it's probably him.
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Nov 6, 2019 03:21
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I'm holding off on this one, Mummy has never really interested me and I don't really care for historical settings outside of mining them for ideas
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Nov 6, 2019 03:58
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Oh hey the fact they’re updating Mummy means Demon has to be getting some attention so-ahahaha I can’t finish that with a straight face.
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Nov 6, 2019 04:22
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a new edition of Demon: The Fallen is just about the only thing I actually want to see from 'white wolf' or whatever the current world of darkness publishing entity is
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Nov 6, 2019 04:29
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Selling my soul to the devil to get a D20 written by Stolze
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Nov 6, 2019 05:27
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:Oh hey the fact they’re updating Mummy means Demon has to be getting some attention so-ahahaha Where's my god drat Hunter 20! I need that dumb game updated for my own amusement.
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