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Skulduggery Pleasant: I just finished book one and um. I did not expect the YA to have more death, betrayal and trauma in it than you'll find in any for-adults UF. Like. Skulduggery himself got tortured, a boatload of people got killed onscreen, and I'm getting war flashbacks to Animorphs. I enjoyed it though - good writing, fun tone, Dublin is a cool setting - and I'll start #2 tomorrow. I would recommend this first one if you enjoy wit, action, and all-out magic fights.
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Nov 6, 2019 05:15
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Kchama posted:I don't think it's actually bad that he has some allies but it's such a disappointing scene after the good Mab one. I do wanna see these guys who hate him and make his struggle a bit more. Though with friends like Scrooge, I guess his quality of allies isn't too high, considering the dude seems to have basically ignored him as a mentor. Wow I def hosed up the number of senior council members its 7 total. edit:I don't see how Eb ignored him as a mentor; Dresden is supposed to be like mid 20s early 30s at this point and a full wizard. Eb lives in a different state they don't really need to hang out every day, as probable retcons go this is pretty tame and not really worth worrying about tbh. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 06:23
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As far as that goes, for a bunch of people who live for potentially hundreds of years you'd think an apprenticeship would last more than a handful of years.
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Nov 6, 2019 06:41
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I think Luccio or somebody explains it at some point that some wizards have very short apprenticeships and others can last decades it depends entirely on the mentor and the Council there is no formal answer.
Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 06:44
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There is the implication that Eb didn't teach Harry much in the way of magic because Justin had already trained him up into a competent if violent wizard. Ebenezer spent his time teaching Harry how to not be Justin's murder slave, and cut him loose when he thought Harry could at least minimally handle his life.
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Nov 6, 2019 06:50
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Kchama posted:... As I said, everyone he met in the scene I just read likes him. Martha absolutely comes off as liking him, Ebenezer clearly likes him, and Listens to Wind likes him. Those are the only White Council people I've met, and they're specifically the guys Ebenezer brought him to as they're the Senior Council people on his side. I'm sure all those people I've never seen or even heard of yet hate him, but he just got introduced to the Senior Council faction that likes him (and no one else has shown up yet). Hub Cat posted:There are multiple Naagloshi fights just not that one its actually a pretty action packed book. If you want fights all the later books have many big fights. Morgan, when confronted with a Naagloshi he clearly couldn't beat, very coldly lured it to suck on the power of the atom without a lot of fanfare. Dresden, when confronted with a Naagloshi he clearly couldn't beat, decides to sumo wrestle an island Morgan's adventures get noodled because they'd be boring, yeah dude is a hard mf, but he's too competent and lawful to make a good story from. M_Gargantua fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 07:57
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Somberbrero posted:I found the first Rivers book to be fairly tedious, but it picks up quickly after. Agreed, I'd almost say it was a Dresden situation where the first book is pretty skippable.
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Nov 6, 2019 10:33
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Morgan was even sent to trick Harry into going off and having to kill him, but he wouldn’t even do it unless Harry crossed a line. After he becomes a warden Harry says he’s seen too much of the worst stuff and has to categorize good or bad pretty clearly. Also we still know very little about Martha Liberty, outside that she is allied with Listens to Wind and Ebenezer.
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Nov 6, 2019 14:05
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Deptfordx posted:Agreed, I'd almost say it was a Dresden situation where the first book is pretty skippable. Skippable, yes. Dresden situation? No. It's extremely well written, does not need apology or retconning. It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, simply because it's the origin story and has the issues origin stories have. Me, I loved book one.
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Nov 6, 2019 14:59
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Kchama posted:I don't think it's actually bad that he has some allies but it's such a disappointing scene after the good Mab one. I do wanna see these guys who hate him and make his struggle a bit more. Though with friends like Scrooge, I guess his quality of allies isn't too high, considering the dude seems to have basically ignored him as a mentor. If I understand where you're at in the book correctly, I suspect you'll be a bit more satisfied with the next couple chapters of Council stuff. Ebenezer, Listens-To-Wind, and Martha Liberty are definitely in the minority where Harry is concerned (and those two are arguably not so much Harry's allies as they are Ebenezer's at this point). The implication is that it's a title passed down from the, er, original Merlin, who founded the White Council back in the day.
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Nov 6, 2019 15:03
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torgeaux posted:Skippable, yes. Dresden situation? No. It's extremely well written, does not need apology or retconning. It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, simply because it's the origin story and has the issues origin stories have. Me, I loved book one. Yeah, the big difference here is that Ben Aaronovich was already an experienced writer when he wrote Rivers and Storm Front was Jim Butcher's first published novel.
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Nov 6, 2019 15:07
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docbeard posted:If I understand where you're at in the book correctly, I suspect you'll be a bit more satisfied with the next couple chapters of Council stuff. Ebenezer, Listens-To-Wind, and Martha Liberty are definitely in the minority where Harry is concerned (and those two are arguably not so much Harry's allies as they are Ebenezer's at this point). The thing to remember is that the White Council are bad guys. Not the only ones, not overtly evil like the Vampire Courts, but bad guys. Indifferent at best, actively supporting status quo even when it sucks most of the time.
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Nov 6, 2019 15:13
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The original Merlin was Harry who traveled back in time
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Nov 6, 2019 15:18
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Finished Ghost Story this morning If Harry saying goodbye to Mouse doesn’t make you cry, you’re dead inside
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Nov 6, 2019 17:14
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torgeaux posted:The thing to remember is that the White Council are bad guys. Not the only ones, not overtly evil like the Vampire Courts, but bad guys. Indifferent at best, actively supporting status quo even when it sucks most of the time. It's a lot more complicated than that, in my opinion. The White Council is an organization of Wizards. Of people who can bend reality itself to their will. So any organization has to be firm enough to enforce certain laws of self-governance but loose enough so that the majority of wizards don't go "gently caress this!" and go off on their own (where they'd be vulnerable to both other organized supernaturals liable to be corrupted into monsters themselves. In the first book the White Council doesn't "hate Harry" because they're mean ol' meanie-means. They're concerned about him because they see him as one bad day away from being a magical version of a mass-shooter. At the start of Summer Knight they're angry at Harry because he got them into a war with the Re Court of Vampires. How happy would we in the US be if one of our ambassadors hosed him diplomacy up so badly we ended up in a shooting war with China? That's where things stood at the start of SK. Much of the WC had zero interest in fighting a war with the vamps, especially one started by some Law-breaking lunatic who should have been beheaded years ago. So, yes, a lot of the WC wanted to give Harry over as a peace offering to the Red Court to end the war.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:02
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Necrotizer F posted:It's a lot more complicated than that, in my opinion. The White Council is an organization of Wizards. Of people who can bend reality itself to their will. So any organization has to be firm enough to enforce certain laws of self-governance but loose enough so that the majority of wizards don't go "gently caress this!" and go off on their own (where they'd be vulnerable to both other organized supernaturals liable to be corrupted into monsters themselves. I don't think it's complicated at all. They don't do good, the don't fight evil, they enforce the status quo. They have rigid, stupid rules that they enforce without any care for circumstances or shades of grey, but only on their own members basically. Their attitude towards Harry is based on things he did after being influenced as a literal juvenile, and only intervention by other members kept them from killing him. Same for Molly in the "monsters from movies are real" book. They're bad guys, they have no good qualities. They have some neutral qualities.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:26
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Necrotizer F posted:How happy would we in the US be if one of our ambassadors hosed him diplomacy up so badly we ended up in a shooting war with China? Not even an ambassador, precisely. At this point in the story, Harry's only official role is to be the official invitee for functions held in his general area (not inviting someone to represent a signatory of the Unseelie Accords would be a faux pas, and an insult both to that member and to Mab). For all intents and purposes, it is closer to having some random US citizen pissing off China so bad it starts a war.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:30
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torgeaux posted:I don't think it's complicated at all. They don't do good, the don't fight evil, they enforce the status quo. They have rigid, stupid rules that they enforce without any care for circumstances or shades of grey, but only on their own members basically. Their attitude towards Harry is based on things he did after being influenced as a literal juvenile, and only intervention by other members kept them from killing him. Same for Molly in the "monsters from movies are real" book. They're bad guys, they have no good qualities. They have some neutral qualities. I don't think an idealized council is supposed to be the bad guys, I agree with you that in practice they are the bad guys, but I feel its because the current council is paralyzed by internecine drama and wrapped up in a war they are losing badly plus we don't know exactly how far and how long they've been influenced by the Black Council. As much as I dislike it, in universe performing black magic twists the caster irreparably into a dangerous threat to regular people and so the council being concerned about Dresden and Molly is understandable although they take it too far. They almost certainly need to setup a system for finding young mages before they become Warlocks. I feel like Butcher has already started preparing the ground to have the council be reformed or torn down and rebuilt.(Dresden starting the Paranet, The Grey Council, Dresden making friends with the good Wardens) Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 23:54
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Hub Cat posted:I don't think an idealized council is supposed to be the bad guys, I agree with you that in practice they are the bad guys, but I feel its because the current council is paralyzed by internecine drama and wrapped up in a war they are losing badly plus we don't know exactly how far and how long they've been influenced by the Black Council. Oh, yeah, I agree. The council was probably a force for good that has become more and more just rules. Rules for the sake of rules so no one has to make moral calls. Black magic harms you, but it clearly doesn't instantly turn you to a villain, let alone an instant super-villain. It would be a nice way for the story to move to dump the council and start over. Dresden is an idealist, and he'd be a terrible person to do it, but the books do tend to idealize idealists, so to speak.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:59
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I honestly have no idea how Dresden even gets back with the White Council; he and Molly were both still under the Doom when they joined team Winter Court and Molly definitely broke the rules during and before Ghost Story. They are both out of the Council's reach for now but presumably not forever and I can't see that being a happy reunion. It would be nice to see Dresden and friends start up a reform school for Wayward Warlocks that could be neat. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 00:06
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Hub Cat posted:I honestly have no idea how Dresden even gets back with the White Council; he and Molly were both still under the Doom when they joined team Winter Court and Molly definitely broke the rules during and before Ghost Story. They are both out of the Council's reach for now but presumably not forever and I can't see that being a happy reunion. That may be the way forward for killing off the Council. You can do it without killing members. Just disband, start over, let everyone retire and go home.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:09
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torgeaux posted:I don't think it's complicated at all. They don't do good, the don't fight evil, they enforce the status quo. They have rigid, stupid rules that they enforce without any care for circumstances or shades of grey, but only on their own members basically. Their attitude towards Harry is based on things he did after being influenced as a literal juvenile, and only intervention by other members kept them from killing him. Same for Molly in the "monsters from movies are real" book. They're bad guys, they have no good qualities. They have some neutral qualities. Sure, but at the same time, one of the aspects of the Dresdenverse is "Bad beats Worse." Yeah, if you're poor and homeless in Dresden's Chicago, life sucks for you. And the White Council isn't going to make things any better. Still, that status quo is probably better than being the undead servant of a necromancer, blood cattle for a vampire or slave/pet/food of something from the NeverNever - or the Outside. So, is the White Council good? Maybe not. Is it better than a whole poo poo-ton of other walking nightmares? Very much. Talking about Ben Aaronovitch, I just re-read something from Broken Homes: quote:The narrow hallway was lined with framed photographs while the far end was dominated by a faux movie poster for Gone With the Wid starring Ronald Reagan sweeping Margaret Thatcher off her feet while a mushroom cloud bloomed behind them. She promised to follow him to the end of the world. He promised to organize it. There's little touches like that in Aaronovitch's books that convey the idea that this stuff is happening in a part of our own world. Barack Obama is the President of the United States (the RoL seem to lag about 4-5 behind present time). Brexit isn't a thing yet, but probably will be, etc. As much as I enjoy the DF, it never quite hits home in the details in terms of feeling real like RoL does.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:22
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Necrotizer F posted:Sure, but at the same time, one of the aspects of the Dresdenverse is "Bad beats Worse." Yeah, if you're poor and homeless in Dresden's Chicago, life sucks for you. And the White Council isn't going to make things any better. Still, that status quo is probably better than being the undead servant of a necromancer, blood cattle for a vampire or slave/pet/food of something from the NeverNever - or the Outside. So, is the White Council good? Maybe not. Is it better than a whole poo poo-ton of other walking nightmares? Very much. The Warden's are just wizard cops like real cops their main job is to swat bad guys that attract too much attention and protect the powerful elite. Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 00:28
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Necrotizer F posted:Sure, but at the same time, one of the aspects of the Dresdenverse is "Bad beats Worse." Yeah, if you're poor and homeless in Dresden's Chicago, life sucks for you. And the White Council isn't going to make things any better. Still, that status quo is probably better than being the undead servant of a necromancer, blood cattle for a vampire or slave/pet/food of something from the NeverNever - or the Outside. So, is the White Council good? Maybe not. Is it better than a whole poo poo-ton of other walking nightmares? Very much. Yeah, I'm actually hoping Aaronovitch doesn't try too hard to incorporate modern politics. Casual asides to center us in time/place are great, like the ones you mentioned are great.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:32
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The Council specifically was not okay with those things. They literally discuss it in the books. Their policy of non-interference is because if they start interfering in politics then it will inevitably lead to infighting and the destruction of the Council within. Which TBH is entirely valid and also self-serving at the same time. It avoids having to make hard decisions with a blanket policy but it also means they don't have to take sides in what is *always* going to be a messy situation.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:34
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Necrotizer F posted:There's little touches like that in Aaronovitch's books that convey the idea that this stuff is happening in a part of our own world. Barack Obama is the President of the United States (the RoL seem to lag about 4-5 behind present time). Brexit isn't a thing yet, but probably will be, etc. Yeah, as a native Chicagoan, Dresdan's Chicago sure doesn't feel like the city I live in. 
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Nov 7, 2019 00:36
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ImpAtom posted:The Council specifically was not okay with those things. They literally discuss it in the books. Their policy of non-interference is because if they start interfering in politics then it will inevitably lead to infighting and the destruction of the Council within. A group that is "specifically not okay with those things," that does nothing about them is at best neutral. The fact that they are smothering rear end-holes to their own folks without regard for circumstance including age, and knowledge of the rules, makes them bad. A policy of non-interference in politics is wildly different from non-interference in creatures that are literally evil toe to head like the black court and the red court.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:38
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They are talking about the post before I edited where I stated they were okay with the trail of tears the Holocaust and chattel slavery. I dropped it because its not going to go anywhere good and this isn't D&D.
Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 00:43
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torgeaux posted:A group that is "specifically not okay with those things," that does nothing about them is at best neutral. The fact that they are smothering rear end-holes to their own folks without regard for circumstance including age, and knowledge of the rules, makes them bad. A policy of non-interference in politics is wildly different from non-interference in creatures that are literally evil toe to head like the black court and the red court. That is specifically not the case though? In fact they actively are reported to be responsible for the near-destruction of the Black Court through making their weaknesses commonplace. They do not go to war to wipe them out because they literally do not have the manpower to do so. We are told and shown multiple times that Wardens are pretty constantly going out and doing things. Every Warden character, Dresden included, makes offhand references to the many supernatural foes they fight when they're not onscreen.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:48
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In Blood Rite Bob says the White Court had Dracula published so that wasn't on the White Council or Butcher got them mixed up.(this is why you don't give poo poo similar names goddamnit)
Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 00:54
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ImpAtom posted:That is specifically not the case though? In fact they actively are reported to be responsible for the near-destruction of the Black Court through making their weaknesses commonplace. They do not go to war to wipe them out because they literally do not have the manpower to do so. We are told and shown multiple times that Wardens are pretty constantly going out and doing things. Every Warden character, Dresden included, makes offhand references to the many supernatural foes they fight when they're not onscreen. The wardens are like cops. . . they don't go out and fight systemic problems, they respond to crimes. The White Council is ostensibly on the side of the good guys, their "position papers" are all correct, they just don't do much, and they do do bad things to practitioners who have violated rules they were unaware of, did not intend harm, and in fact intended good. Most of what we see, in fact, is their overbearing, "we're good because we say we're good, trust us," routine.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:54
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In fact, when Luccio recruited Dresden, she made it pretty clear that there weren't enough Wardens to do everything that needed to be done, and it can be extrapolated from that and the events in Proven Guilty that the White Council doesn't have the manpower it needs to do everything it 'should', including finding new talent before they go warlock.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:56
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"One thing you're not is stupid, Dresden. A little naive, sometimes, but never stupid." - Murphy, from Dresden #2
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Nov 7, 2019 00:57
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Hub Cat posted:In Blood Rite Bob says the White Court had Dracula published so that wasn't on the White Council or Butcher got them mixed up.(this is why you don't give poo poo similar names goddamnit) Looking over author statements, this wasn't an error, and the White Court was behind the extermination of the Black Court.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:05
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It makes sense Black Court was probably White Courts biggest enemy and they were a big threat to the status quo they thrive in I just couldn't be sure without google diving.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:09
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torgeaux posted:The wardens are like cops. . . they don't go out and fight systemic problems, they respond to crimes. The White Council is ostensibly on the side of the good guys, their "position papers" are all correct, they just don't do much, and they do do bad things to practitioners who have violated rules they were unaware of, did not intend harm, and in fact intended good. Most of what we see, in fact, is their overbearing, "we're good because we say we're good, trust us," routine. One thing about the Laws of Magic is that they're not simply social contracts. It's not like the Wardens just randomly jump somebody with "you have violated paragraph 6 of subsection 66 of the Obscurum Legalese Code of Wizardry. Your sentence is Death" *Shhunk* *head rolls around blinking.* Breaking the Laws of Magic basically gives you Rabies/Ebola of the Soul. Killing Law-breakers isn't really about punishment. Law-breakers are killed in the Dresdenverse for the same general reason you shoot your best friend in the head if gets bitten by a Walker during a zombie apocalypse. Now Law-breaking isn't as absolute as a zombie bite, so there are trials and exceptions. However, there is no "cure" for Law-breaking. People who break the Laws do not "get better." At best they haven't damaged themselves to the point of bringing horror and death to everyone around them. Yet. Still, once you've broken a Law, you're that much more likely to do it again. And again. And pretty soon... horror and death. So, it's understandable that the Council prefers to err on the side of "Best we kill the mind controller before he turns a kindergarten class into his harem of gently caress toys."
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Nov 7, 2019 01:43
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Necrotizer F posted:One thing about the Laws of Magic is that they're not simply social contracts. It's not like the Wardens just randomly jump somebody with "you have violated paragraph 6 of subsection 66 of the Obscurum Legalese Code of Wizardry. Your sentence is Death" *Shhunk* *head rolls around blinking.* Hub Cat fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 01:54
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My general take on the Laws is that, back in the day, Merlin or someone started telling people "Here are some things you shouldn't do BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY loving DANGEROUS AND SOUL-DESTROYING YOU IDIOTS", and the Council, being what they are, turned them into an elaborate legal code. The White Council are essentially a force for order, rather than for good or for evil. They've just decided (as forces for order usually do) that order and good are the same thing.
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Nov 7, 2019 02:01
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The Council makes a lot of sense if you imagine it starting out as a Merlinocracy to stop the real nasties of the universe and then he went away and it grew into this weird byzantine oligarchy that has drifted further and further without their benevolent king to keep them on the right track.
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Nov 7, 2019 02:20
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Hub Cat posted:I think Dresden being a lawbreaker that didn't go over to the dark side because he got some TLC suggests that the council goes a little overboard at least some of the time and that maybe there is room for reform and rehabilitation. Well, sure. Still, part of it is that Dresden got lucky. He was found fairly quickly. And he had McCoy to stand up for him. One nod the series has toward the modern era is that there's a poo poo load of people in it. Even if only a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage can do magic at a substantial level, those are tiny percentage of 7.5+ billion people. And rising. And the White Council is a secret from regular people. And the Wardens are busy dealing with a lot of other poo poo. So, say some guy in a small town somewhere sees a girl about to be raped and murdered. His power wells and KA-ZAP he electrocutes the would-be rapist-killer with lightning. Like a superhero. And gets a new girlfriend, maybe. And a little later that rear end in a top hat bully that keep taking his lunch money comes around to do again and... KA-ZAP. His dad gets on him for sucky grades and how he needs to get a jo- KA-ZAP. The new girlfriend won't put out? KA-ZAP. Little sister changed the TV channel? KA-ZAP. And this all happens over a few weeks or just days. So by the time the Wardens get there, the decent young man who killed to save another is pretty much a zap-happy murder hobo who's never coming back from that. So... *Schunk*
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Nov 7, 2019 02:27
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