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Fuzz posted:It really makes me sad that Touch 1.0 is dead and gone because it overall really was hands down the best VR gaming controller, full stop. Nothing compares, and the Index controller is the only thing that comes close after you get past the QC issues. I'm surprised they revised them like they did. They really didn't need much beyond just inverting the tracking ring to over the top of the surface instead around the grip.
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Nov 6, 2019 08:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I'm surprised they revised them like they did. They really didn't need much beyond just inverting the tracking ring to over the top of the surface instead around the grip. I think their logic was A- having something that lays flat on a table easily, and B- not actually consulting with a gaming controller design firm because now it's Facebook, not actual Oculus proper doing all the legwork. Really dumb. Ultimately Facebook buying them probably is good for the VR market overall and will ensure the continued success of the Oculus brand (see Quest) but I honestly think that overall VR gaming will suffer as VR continues to push more heavily into the 1:1 simulation direction instead of what's easiest/most accurate/efficient for actual gaming. This sort of poo poo has happened before with attempts at weird and novel control schemes in console gaming, but you always had one or two of the main companies always maintaining a traditional overall form factor... The issue with VR is that outside of the (comparatively niche and corner market) WMR environment there has been very little control standardization across the main headsets which hold the lions' share of VR gamers (VIVEs/Oculi/Index) so you never had that time of a decade+ of a reliable benchmark in form factor to keep the industry grounded and be that "old reliable" which they always go back to. A lot of people may see that as a boon overall, since we're seeing innovative and creative approaches with some new type of controller every couple years thus far. Some will argue that the lack of a "gaming" chic makes the technology more approachable to lay people (see VOID and their whole thing), which is based on the assumption that non-gamers see gaming controllers as intimidating and obtuse. This is kinda a gradually-becoming-archaic assumption since as time passes, more and more kids are growing up as "gamers" and gaming stopped being a niche hobby with a "negative" overall connotation over a decade ago, plus yeah, you're an rear end if you think a joystick and some buttons will intimidate non-gamers. The other main argument I see is that controller design has become "stale" and has been in dire need of innovation. I can agree with the underlying sentiment, but having been playing video games since the mid-80s I think the more pragmatic and realistic revelation is not that game controller design hasn't changed much for a lack of innovation... in the 70s they tried all sorts of poo poo. It's stayed the same because the modern form factor works, simple as that. VR by nature requires novel methods of control, though, something the simple addition of motion tracking and relatively similar movements like grip buttons can't fully encapsulate, though. A lot of people really want that VR experience that TV and movies have been promising us for 30+ years, that seamless feeling of being completely and utterly in another world. Part of this is that people have varying degrees of tolerance when it comes to immersion, and stuff that's as simple as clicking a grip button completely ruins the sensation for them because their brains are just more concretely wired to their sense of touch than others. Part of it is also simply that we want to be able to do poo poo like flip off our friends with finger tracking or make finger animals and full body gesticulations because the level of control and the new avenues of communication afforded in VR are basically unprecedented (see VRChat and even just a lot of regular shooters). I'm hoping eventually we figure out a happy medium where there are still efficient and responsive controls that stay extremely precise and accurate for the purposes of gaming, but also allows for really expansive and similarly accurate representations of our physical form and movement being projected into a virtual world. But yeah, Touch 1.0 was something special. TL;DR: Touch 1.0 was the best for gaming. VR controllers need more standardization.
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Nov 6, 2019 08:37
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Zaphod42 posted:...you should probably go ahead and finish reading the thing you quoted My point was on potential consumer base, not "lightning in a bottle". Minecraft runs on literally everything with a screen. H3VR runs on $2,000 worth of specialized hardware minimum.
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Nov 6, 2019 09:08
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Fuzz posted:I think their logic was A- having something that lays flat on a table easily, and B- not actually consulting with a gaming controller design firm because now it's Facebook, not actual Oculus proper doing all the legwork. I love how people can go and say any bullshit on Internet. They bought a famous design firm, the ones that did the first Touch.
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Nov 6, 2019 09:39
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Turin Turambar posted:I love how people can go and say any bullshit on Internet. They bought a famous design firm, the ones that did the first Touch. ^ This. And to add to that, Oculus HQ has been colocated with Facebook HQ for five years - "Oculus proper" doesn't really mean anything unless you decide literally anyone hired after the acquisition is a willing and cynical slave to some distorted version of Facebook. Nonsensical longing for a fictional past is for boomers. Also: 1. They are, at least at this point, standardized. First by OpenXR, meaning all major runtimes support it, though this standardizes receiving input. not specific control schemes. Second by market forces - there's enough competitive pressure to prevent straying too far from the current successful control scheme. 2. I don't see a concerted push for 1:1 at the expense of gaming. The Index controllers are a joke for anyone gaming with a budget less than $2000. Nobody thinks hand tracking is a serious contender for primary gaming input and nobody is stupid enough to believe that the Quest is not a gaming console. 3. Maybe this is me being contrarian but I think VR benefits from novel control in the same way hands can be more useful with different tools in them. Handless people don't automatically go insane, though they do lose out on some capability or expressiveness. VR is still VR as long as the key magic of tricking your brain into accepting a simulated world with simulated senses keeps working. Conceptual descendants of Dual Shock controllers aren't going anywhere.
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Nov 6, 2019 10:03
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Fuzz posted:I think their logic was A- having something that lays flat on a table easily, and B- not actually consulting with a gaming controller design firm because now it's Facebook, not actual Oculus proper doing all the legwork. Actually controllers have already pretty much gelled to a standard already thanks to Oculus; Capacitive Thumbstick, Two capacitive face buttons, trigger, grip. Anything else is extra flavour for the time being. Index Controllers match it exactly, as do the Cosmos'. I fully expect the next generation of PSVR controllers to as well. Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:^ This. And to add to that, Oculus HQ has been colocated with Facebook HQ for five years - "Oculus proper" doesn't really mean anything unless you decide literally anyone hired after the acquisition is a willing and cynical slave to some distorted version of Facebook. Nonsensical longing for a fictional past is for boomers. Yeaaah not quite. Something you hear a lot in productions across media formats like television and videogames "we only pulled this off so well because the guy leading the project had the clout to say no to stupid ideas". However Oculus may or may not have been before, that definitively stopped as of about six-odd months ago when Facebook promoted people out of the way and installed their own guys at the top of Oculus for actual projects and day-to-day management. The real litmus test is watching what comes out of Oculus in the next few years because, as I've said before, forming your opinion about Oculus exclusively based on any hardware coming out right now is about two years out of date (ie; when projects like the Quest and Rift S were actually put down on paper). I'd still wager the whole "Nah, the Quest's too far along to switch to a software IPD" thing was someone blowing smoke. Also anyone hired by Oculus doesn't magically mean they get to do what they want and make it a happy funtime place of VR miracles. They're working on a project decided by someone above them, and subject to the decisions made by those above them, like any other job. And that's where everyone's problem with Oculus as it is today lies, because the people creating and signing off on new projects are very much Facebook.
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Nov 6, 2019 10:43
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I'm so glad H3VR lets you "palm" a handful of bullets. Makes it so much easier to reload revolvers, or combine magazines. I played a round of Take & Hold using the item spawner, so I could start with an AR15, 1911 Tactical, and a bunch of ammo. It's really striking how much easier the game is when you start with a modern rifle and not some bolt-action WW1 thingy. I remember the original draft of T&H let you set different types of progressions. Like, standard progression, versus "themed" ones like only spawning pistols, or modern rifles, or whatever else. It looks like the current version only lets you customize what category of weapons you start with, and the progression is otherwise "standard" no matter what. Am I missing something, or did they remove the different progression types?
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Nov 6, 2019 11:19
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They couldn't "just" move the tracking ring above the controller. The reason why the newer one doesn't feel as good is because the balance is worse whereas the balance on the original controllers was perfect. This is because the tracking ring is heavy and placed low. To put it above, without severely unbalancing the controller, they had to make it lighter and move stuff around.
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Nov 6, 2019 11:44
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Shine posted:I'm so glad H3VR lets you "palm" a handful of bullets. Makes it so much easier to reload revolvers, or combine magazines. The Standard loadout is actually progression-based, I can't speak for the others. First pre-Hold point will have handguns, round Hold Point 2-3 has a shotgun or SMG, and around the last wave you might have an assault rifle, battle rifle, or MAYBE a support-class weapon (ie; HMG, minigun, etc) if you're lucky and hoarded your tokens. Ricky-Dicky-Random is just a flat random modifier though; Your options in the Supply Points are Weapons (3 tokens), and a random cycle of Accessories (3 Tokens), Melee Weapons, Weiners, and Grenades (5 Tokens). I still find it the most fun option, just to see what will come spitting out of each supply point. Also I highly recommend to trying strapping an underbarrel launcher to your assault rifle of choice if you're gonna use the Item Spawner for a run. It's a real game-changer.
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Nov 6, 2019 12:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yeaaah not quite. Something you hear a lot in productions across media formats like television and videogames "we only pulled this off so well because the guy leading the project had the clout to say no to stupid ideas". However Oculus may or may not have been before, that definitively stopped as of about six-odd months ago when Facebook promoted people out of the way and installed their own guys at the top of Oculus for actual projects and day-to-day management. The real litmus test is watching what comes out of Oculus in the next few years because, as I've said before, forming your opinion about Oculus exclusively based on any hardware coming out right now is about two years out of date (ie; when projects like the Quest and Rift S were actually put down on paper). I'd still wager the whole "Nah, the Quest's too far along to switch to a software IPD" thing was someone blowing smoke. Also, tech in Silicon Valley frequently does not uniformly work like the strict top down idea you have, at startups or even at the large companies. Not that I'm saying it's all one way or another, but you really can't say "Oculus good Facebook bad". The products delivered have always been a substantial mix of engineering and management from both.
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Nov 6, 2019 12:16
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Doctor w-rw-rw- posted:I do agree that an opinion formed from publicly released hardware is prone to being out of date, but I think it should be noted that Oculus sub-leadership and Facebook sub-leadership cycles and has been cycling for years, as have engineers - before Quest, before Go, before Gear, before Touch - if you can disentangle the product and service "Facebook.com" from the company, those products contain as much "Facebook" as they do "Oculus". People hired by Facebook do in fact get to choose what team to join, there are articles about this dating as far back as 10 years, and that lends itself to people passionate about VR joining other people passionate about VR. The problem is that with Facebook is you can say that because they have a known long-term agenda with VR; Get people in, generate metadata off the private opinions and biometric data of millions of people, sell it for a shitload of money. They've been unashamedly transparent about their intentions with their tech demos of new developments, or even just the user agreements that can basically be summed up as "we're not doing the stuff you hate about us yet, but we reserve the right to do so at a moment of our choosing". Sub-leadership also doesn't mean squat when they've got Facebook brass now definitively sitting at the top of the studio. They have oversight on everything there, and can influence projects as they please to suite Facebook's long-term goals rather than just VR development in general.
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Nov 6, 2019 12:37
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This, plus a large pay off why Touch was successful was Carbon Design Group, the company that helped design the X-Box 360 controller. https://www.wired.com/2016/12/oculus-touch-design/ Oculus eventually just acquired the company and merged them into their own team, but yeah, that's what I meant by consulting an outside firm. The limitations of the inside out tracking are 100% part of why Touch 2.0 is the way it is, but that's kind of part of what's a shame, too. You expect iterations on a tech to get better, but ultimately a Touch 1.0 setup even with just 2 sensors still feels better, is more accurate, and just overall is a smoother experience than the Rift 2. Yes, it's a bit of extra setup and wires, but ultimately you only have to do it once, assuming you're not the type that constantly moves your entire setup between locales.
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Nov 6, 2019 14:27
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Shine posted:I remember the original draft of T&H let you set different types of progressions. Like, standard progression, versus "themed" ones like only spawning pistols, or modern rifles, or whatever else. It looks like the current version only lets you customize what category of weapons you start with, and the progression is otherwise "standard" no matter what. Am I missing something, or did they remove the different progression types? They were removed in the rework but supposedly are going to be back at some point. One of the reasons they added those new sets of sosiguns (western, WW2) in the last update is to give enemies more appropriate weapons when they eventually add the other loot table options back.
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Nov 6, 2019 14:28
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:They were removed in the rework but supposedly are going to be back at some point. One of the reasons they added those new sets of sosiguns (western, WW2) in the last update is to give enemies more appropriate weapons when they eventually add the other loot table options back. I think Anton mentioned there's going to be more maps with different terrain setups (so things like scoped rifles are actually viable with big open spaces).
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Nov 6, 2019 15:27
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I know this is a bit of an older game, but been having fun with my VR group playing IronWolf. I wish the sub had more poo poo that could go wrong. We're eyeing the star trek game next.
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Nov 6, 2019 17:35
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Shine posted:I'm so glad H3VR lets you "palm" a handful of bullets. Makes it so much easier to reload revolvers, or combine magazines. ...I need to try this. Lots of real subtle things about H3 that take awhile to pick up. I've been loading my revolvers bullet by bullet! Is there a way to manually rotate the cylinder for a revolver (while its out)? I haven't had too much trouble loading all the slots, but it seems like something you should be able to do in H3. Neddy Seagoon posted:Actually controllers have already pretty much gelled to a standard already thanks to Oculus; Capacitive Thumbstick, Two capacitive face buttons, trigger, grip. Anything else is extra flavour for the time being. Index Controllers match it exactly, as do the Cosmos'. I fully expect the next generation of PSVR controllers to as well. Interestingly this is exactly the default gesture setup for the SteamVR API. I was looking around for how to map more specific inputs to my VIVE wand, like proper up, down, left, right, but I'm thinking its intentional so that if I can make things work with just left and right, it'll work ambiguous of any specific input hardware? Sounds like I should stick to that then. E: Or maybe not, I guess there's still a thumbstick but the vive wand doesn't have a thumbstick, so you end up mapping buttons to the touchpad half the time... hmmmm. I keep thinking about buying an Index. I'm super on the fence. I really don't need it... Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Nov 6, 2019 |
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Nov 6, 2019 18:06
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The Standard loadout is actually progression-based, I can't speak for the others. They're all progression based. But they all use the SAME progression. Shine was asking about the option for choosing specific progressions. Shine posted:I remember the original draft of T&H let you set different types of progressions. Like, standard progression, versus "themed" ones like only spawning pistols, or modern rifles, or whatever else. It looks like the current version only lets you customize what category of weapons you start with, and the progression is otherwise "standard" no matter what. Am I missing something, or did they remove the different progression types? There's lots about H3 I still don't know, but that's how it looked to me. All the options just have default progression, and didn't see a way to change the progression. Lockback posted:I know this is a bit of an older game, but been having fun with my VR group playing IronWolf. I wish the sub had more poo poo that could go wrong. We're eyeing the star trek game next. Star Trek is real fun in co-op if you're a trekkie.
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Nov 6, 2019 18:11
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Kinda sucks when you don't get an assault rifle or better before wave 5, "guess I'll die"
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Nov 6, 2019 18:20
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BMan posted:Kinda sucks when you don't get an assault rifle or better before wave 5, "guess I'll die" Roll on the ammo spawners. AP and/or incendiary rounds to the head end fights quickly.
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Nov 6, 2019 19:11
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BMan posted:Kinda sucks when you don't get an assault rifle or better before wave 5, "guess I'll die" I started out with a pmr-30 pistol one run, and just decided to only use that. It's still my highest score run. Never underestimate a good high mag pistol.
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Nov 6, 2019 21:01
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Bit late to the discussion, but I like that H3VR only has hotdogs to shoot. Real guns with realistic handling shooting humanoid targets would be too much for me. It's weird. Games like Doom 2016 are no issue, but I straight up can't handle the violence in blade and sorcery.
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Nov 6, 2019 22:53
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It's also nice because it's a unique aesthetic, something that I strongly value these days.
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Nov 6, 2019 23:08
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BadMedic posted:Bit late to the discussion, but I like that H3VR only has hotdogs to shoot. Real guns with realistic handling shooting humanoid targets would be too much for me. This is called empathy. It’s a good thing to have
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Nov 6, 2019 23:59
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PISTOL WHIP RELEASE TOMORROWBadMedic posted:Bit late to the discussion, but I like that H3VR only has hotdogs to shoot. Real guns with realistic handling shooting humanoid targets would be too much for me. I strongly agree. I feel like h3's extreme gun realism would be weird with realistic people. I already feel a little uncomfortable in Payday. (Fwiw, I own guns IRL too. But I only shoot clay pigeons) There's a walking dead VR game coming, and its still pretty caroony but makes me uncomfortable because it has human beings begging for their lives before you realistically stab them in the face. Its.... pretty rough. Even the "goblins" in blade and sorcery... I feel bad for them, yeah. Kinda icky. They're so helpless and you just... kill them. I'm planning on keeping everything lowpoly in my VR project. definitely not because of budget / time / artistic skill constraints, no way!
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Nov 7, 2019 00:02
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Yeah I posted ages back about sneaking up on an unaware Raider in Fallout4 and basically putting the barrel of my huge modded/silenced 10mm pistol up against the back of his head, thought 'poo poo this is a bit much'. Still shot him of course, but the thought was there.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:06
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:This is called empathy. It’s a good thing to have Oh, I dunno, I think you can have empathy and still enjoy doing brutal murders in VR. Sneaking up on someone and executing them point back with a pistol to the back of the head in Onward was fuckin' nuts, especially knowing that there was a real human being on the other end who had no idea it was even happening.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:21
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Zaphod42 posted:PISTOL WHIP RELEASE TOMORROW Its so goooooooood Also we'll be giving away copies in altspace and during the tourney. So def look into that.  https://twitter.com/VRespawn/status/1191769810318831623?s=20
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Nov 7, 2019 00:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5V8zfCYR8 This is that game I said made me kinda uncomfortable The way you can grab them by the head and then knife them and it gets stuck, it looks even more gruesome than blade and sorcery. And then if you jump to 5:00 there's a straight up Heavy Rain moment where one guy asks you to kill some other guy, and the other guy pleads for his life before you execute him. That's too much, man! And this doesn't even really look all that realistic. The characters are pretty stylized and cartoony, but... oof. Still a bit much.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:42
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I'd say its possible to have a spectrum of vidyagame enemies between ultra realistic humans that  deeply into your eyes as you stab them to death and barely rigged cylinder primatives with props. Robots or doom style monsters for example.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:50
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Meanwhile, archery inn Skyrim never gets old because most of the people in that game look like amorphous blobs and are probably terrible anyway.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:51
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Pistol Whip comes out tomorrow and they still haven't announced the price, so I'm assuming that's because it's going to be overpriced as hell.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:54
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You don't have "this is real life" circuits hardwired into your brain, you do have "this is a recognizable human face" circuits hardwired into your brain. I think VR is going to open up new questions in the "fantasy vs reality" space because of how truly convincing it is on a subconscious level. I'm not arguing if you kill people in games you're gonna be a serial killer, but shooting someone in VR is fundamentally different from pressing the left mouse button to shoot someone in the center of your monitor
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Nov 7, 2019 00:55
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Origami Dali posted:Pistol Whip comes out tomorrow and they still haven't announced the price, so I'm assuming that's because it's going to be overpriced as hell. Nah. Devs are awesome. Why is everyone so hung up on price anyways? I'm laughing my rear end off at everyone freaking out about knowing how much its going to cost. Folks. Its a VR game from an indie dev. Calm down.
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Nov 7, 2019 00:56
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EbolaIvory posted:Nah. Devs are awesome. Afaik, I'm the only person who's mentioned it, so ????
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Nov 7, 2019 01:06
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Origami Dali posted:Afaik, I'm the only person who's mentioned it, so ???? Nah in general. The discord, reddit, twitter. People in general are making a stink about the price not being shown. Just funny is all.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:13
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Lemming posted:You don't have "this is real life" circuits hardwired into your brain, you do have "this is a recognizable human face" circuits hardwired into your brain. I think VR is going to open up new questions in the "fantasy vs reality" space because of how truly convincing it is on a subconscious level. I think I agree. Honestly, I still feel a little offput even with the hotdog men, sneaking up and shooting them in the back of the head, or putting a bullet into one that's gone down but isn't dead yet. As goofy as the hotdogs in H3VR are, it's distinctly more immersive to handle a gun in VR than with a mouse and keyboard, and I would feel pretty uncomfortable pointing my controller at the head of a realistically-modeled human and pulling the trigger.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:21
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EbolaIvory posted:Nah in general. The discord, reddit, twitter. People in general are making a stink about the price not being shown. Maybe they should stop being coy and announce the price then  Lemming posted:You don't have "this is real life" circuits hardwired into your brain, you do have "this is a recognizable human face" circuits hardwired into your brain. I think VR is going to open up new questions in the "fantasy vs reality" space because of how truly convincing it is on a subconscious level. I do agree with this. I guess my personal acceptable realism bar is just a fair bit higher than hotdog men. I don't personally find blade and sorcery that bad but I think that is largely because the humans in that don't really show any feeling or emotion. I could see it getting pretty  pretty fast. mashed fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 01:22
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I spent like $1200 on an Index, extra base station, and some mods. If an indie dev makes a great game and wants like 30 bucks for it, then I'm gonna pay them 30 bucks without a second thought.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:23
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I am happier playing H3VR with sausage enemies than I would be if there were humanoid enemies. If there were goofy looking robot enemies I would be happier than if there were humanoid robots. It's more fun to shoot the guns at not-people.
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Nov 7, 2019 01:28
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Hellsau posted:I am happier playing H3VR with sausage enemies than I would be if there were humanoid enemies. If there were goofy looking robot enemies I would be happier than if there were humanoid robots. It's more fun to shoot the guns at not-people. Totally agree with this, it's part of the reason why I'm really glad they went that direction for Stormland - it's abstract enough that it seems like you're just gonna be destroying things, rather than living entities (although these robots are more vaguely humanoid, they generally look more, I dunno, skeletal? Not like androids, more like industrial robot arms and stuff) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKLcG5m1huA
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Nov 7, 2019 01:39
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