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Calico Heart posted:Also trying to decide how I feel about "The Pale". I loved the game and even it's spookier, weirder aspects but to me that element feels almost like too much. The strangeness of shivers and inland empire feel less special when there is a magic fog that's going to eat everything. The worldbuilding is really grand and fantastic but again "magic spaceships and lorries that travel through magic non-existence" is a weird thing for no one to talk about much. It's a meta thing about games and boundaries outside the screen but honestly that kind of rote element to the world feels a bit... beneath the game? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I kinda would have preferred the game to just remain "an archepelago" with some under-the-surface weirdness. But The Pale doesn't really affect most people's lives. I think the fact that no one talks about it makes it much more realistic than the game shoving the concept down the player's throat every chance it can.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:01
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Calico Heart posted:Wait, it’s a global warming thing, isn’t it?
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Nov 10, 2019 03:02
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Calico Heart posted:Wait, it’s a global warming thing, isn’t it?
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Nov 10, 2019 03:04
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Calico Heart posted:Also trying to decide how I feel about "The Pale". I loved the game and even it's spookier, weirder aspects but to me that element feels almost like too much. The strangeness of shivers and inland empire feel less special when there is a magic fog that's going to eat everything. The worldbuilding is really grand and fantastic but again "magic spaceships and lorries that travel through magic non-existence" is a weird thing for no one to talk about much. It's a meta thing about games and boundaries outside the screen but honestly that kind of rote element to the world feels a bit... beneath the game? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I kinda would have preferred the game to just remain "an archepelago" with some under-the-surface weirdness. Because that's just the world they live in. If someone told you they had amnesia, you wouldn't start out by telling them that we're living on a tiny oasis of livable land in the midst of an endless inky black ocean of nothingness, filled with deadly radiation. The Pale is similar to Outer Space, but easier to get through, honestly. But it also does represent an existential threat to all life... maybe. Which is also something that people aren't really gonna drop in random conversations unless you start asking about it.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:04
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Sekenr posted:And there is also a coalition ship Archer always on standby to shell the enemies of capital. But how is this possible if they travel via airships that are thrown in precise trajectories? Come to think of it, how is her yacht possible? Insulinda is a massive chunk of ocean and islands the size of the Pacific. There's about 70 000 islands in an Indonesia-style archipelago across it, and Revachol is on the biggest one, about the size of Australia. Joyce took her yacht from Ozonne, another nearby island where her corporate office is.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:07
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Spoilery question on that subject, but I just wanted to make sure I actually squeezed all I could out of the hole in existence side-quest. I finished the task itself, did everything in Soona's questline, presented a theory, remixed the hellsound, danced and communed with the city and whatnot, but I didn't return to the church after the tribunal, instead doing a last check of things in the east side of the river but then just beelining for the island without checking up on the church, fishing village or the mural building. The last thing I got on that quest was Soona telling me she'd have to send word to her coworkers and wait for their reply, but I'm not sure if that's where it ends or if there's anything more before I head for the island.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:07
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Calico Heart posted:What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck was that ending There's two takes I have on the ending, one is generous and one is more cynical. The generous take is basically the real story in the game is who you are. You're the real mystery, figuring out who you were, what would have drove you to obliterate your very self, who you're going to be going forward. The actual murder investigation is just framing and world building around this concept. Because of this the confrontation with your old squad is the culmination of this thread - it's a reckoning with the people who knew you you were and the actions you've taken since you, essentially, became someone else. The more cynical take is that all the major themes and plot in the game is wrapped up with the final dream with Dora, the conversation with the Deserter, and the discovery of the Phasmid. The last conversation with your squad has nothing to do with the game at all and is 100% setting up the sequel. Which, like, fair enough, I'm pretty certain anything by this studio is purchase-sight-unseen for me for the foreseeable future.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:10
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Agree the story is mostly about Harry, yeah - but there was a “gameiness” in that moment that felt cheap. Like “remember the things you did? Your choices mattered!” Oh. Okay. Yeah. The more I think about it the more I can envision a perfect ending that’s just you and Kim talking on the boat about the state of the world and how things had gone. lunar detritus posted:But The Pale doesn't really affect most people's lives. I think the fact that no one talks about it makes it much more realistic than the game shoving the concept down the player's throat every chance it can. While I get where you’re coming from, it’s such a high-concept thing that I feel it should inform more-or-less every aspect of every character, the history and the world. Maybe it does (I felt every character/motivation/lore tidbit/etc made perfect sense without it)! But if so, it’s weird to hide the entire coda for your game behind ten dialogue trees I dunno. It feels like an aspect that is not intrinsically bad (a bit children of men even) but it didn’t work for me. Even with the message of “all people can do is ignore it” it feels weird to be able to not learn anything about it on a playthrough. The people not talking about it and the game’s world being built around an incredibly important concept that you can potentially never learn about feel different to me. Why include something so weird and world-defining if it’s impact on the story and world can be completely ignored? Eh. Just finished the game and am running got. May change my mind but it’s the aspect of the game that feels most like a square bullet on a round hole to me Calico Heart fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 03:11
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Yeah I too sometimes wonder why they would include an all consuming past that breaks down people's minds and keeps them from experiencing reality in this game. I really can't see what thematic resonance it could have with anyone in the story. 
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Nov 10, 2019 03:23
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Calico Heart posted:Also trying to decide how I feel about "The Pale". I loved the game and even it's spookier, weirder aspects but to me that element feels almost like too much. The strangeness of shivers and inland empire feel less special when there is a magic fog that's going to eat everything. The worldbuilding is really grand and fantastic but again "magic spaceships and lorries that travel through magic non-existence" is a weird thing for no one to talk about much. It's a meta thing about games and boundaries outside the screen but honestly that kind of rote element to the world feels a bit... beneath the game? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I kinda would have preferred the game to just remain "an archepelago" with some under-the-surface weirdness.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, really you want a min of 3 in both Phys and Psyche so you have 3/3 in each health category. I don't agree with this at all, generalized builds sort of go against the point of the game and also make it harder to hit any Impossible level passive checks in dialog which are a huge source of the coolest dialog in the game (your stat scores are counted for passive checks). Specializing is the best and most interesting thing you can do. Generalized builds WILL end up seeing less passive dialog checks. Also healing items are super cheap and plentiful. Having to press a button upon any damage is not that big of a deal.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:39
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Mulva posted:Yeah I too sometimes wonder why they would include an all consuming past that breaks down people's minds and keeps them from experiencing reality in this game. Speaking of, it's kinda amazing just how fully developed that theme is in the game. It's there on the personal level as Harry's past has consumed him to the point of losing his own identity; it's there as a solution to the murder mystery in the shape of the Deserter, who is also a specter of the past that continues haunting the town both metaphorically as a failed revolution and physically as an actual killer; it's in every part of the town, whether in the "ironic" statue of its defeat or multiple bullet holes decorating its surfaces; it's there on the global level as a force that is literally the past devouring the present, breaking the world down into more and more disconnected islands of humanity. Basically, the above is why the ending (all parts of it) worked for me, bringing the themes of the game full circle.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:42
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Just replayed the tribunal scene and I think I know what my favorite voiced line in the game is. "He never stops. HE ONLY GETS WORSE." Overall the brain voices were definitely the highlight of the voice cast for me (were they really all voiced by the same person?????  ), and the second place is probably shared between Kim's VA and the guy who plays Measurehead 
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Nov 10, 2019 03:43
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Calico Heart posted:Also trying to decide how I feel about "The Pale". I loved the game and even it's spookier, weirder aspects but to me that element feels almost like too much. The strangeness of shivers and inland empire feel less special when there is a magic fog that's going to eat everything. The worldbuilding is really grand and fantastic but again "magic spaceships and lorries that travel through magic non-existence" is a weird thing for no one to talk about much. It's a meta thing about games and boundaries outside the screen but honestly that kind of rote element to the world feels a bit... beneath the game? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I kinda would have preferred the game to just remain "an archepelago" with some under-the-surface weirdness. Joyce touches on this a little bit. The Pale is incompatible with life, and indeed reality. It's still a crapshoot to travel through it; even if you do make it through it invariably destroys your mind with sufficient exposure, and it doesn't really take much. It's also growing - slowly, but with every moment it grows larger. No one knows why, or how to stop it, and everyone can think about the Isolas they live on shrinking and reach the obvious conclusion. It strikes me as very human that the response to "the end of the world is approaching and no one knows what to do about it" is to focus one's attention on literally any concept that isn't that particular one, or anything related to that one.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:46
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I still can't get over Cuno and your ex-partner having the same V/A.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:46
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Calico Heart posted:Agree the story is mostly about Harry, yeah - but there was a “gameiness” in that moment that felt cheap. Like “remember the things you did? Your choices mattered!” Oh. Okay. Yeah. You're looking at this too clinically. The Pale's primary purpose is thematic. Disco Elysium's world is a decaying one that is falling apart and diminishing as its inhabitants dwell in an idealized past even as they suffer and moulder because of that past. The Union and Wild Pines is ultimately the past repeating itself, hence the premonitions that the ultimate result will be the city getting blown to poo poo again as the "new Communards" head up against the "new Fascists." It's a story that's about the recursive nature of things, both political and emotional. Harry is consumed by his past even as he has had all notions of it wiped clean, but he can't avoid it, it's coming back to him. It takes shape in gum wrappers, the smell of apricots, in phone numbers stored in his muscle memory and the consequences of his past deeds. Just like Harry, the world is consistently trying to forget but coming into constant conflict with the past. The Pale is that past catching up with us, it's what was destroying what is. It's age old enmity making modern cooperation impossible, it's a several year dead relationship poisoning the mind of a man who tried his hardest to forget. It's that first drink you took on the path to alcoholism. It's when the Coalition came to wipe away the revolutionaries seemingly destined to happen all over again. There are two people you meet who are wholly consumed by the past, the Paledriver, and the Communist at the end, both of them are a stark contrast to Harry who is essentially a newborn with a genetic, instinctual memory of some life before, but almost entirely, purely existing in a world of now. They are people who purely exist, and are incapable, of escaping from the past. The Communist's entire identity crumbles when the one thing keeping him anchored to the modern world, love, lust, and the neurological effects of the phasmid, is severed. As soon as those passionate, immediate feelings are taken away, he is nothing. The plot is based around people avoiding or being subsumed by their past. The Pale is that concept manifest. In order for the world of Elysium to work, people need to fall apart in that strange void for the benefit of others, there is no world that isn't built on the suffering of the past, there is no ignoring that world and there is no progress if you just live in that world. Harry tried to ignore it AND obsess over it. He's the two methods brought to a head, combined, they cancelled out and created nothingness, a being of pure and utter now. Hence the phasmid, hence a creature that only lives in the now, only capable of perceiving a now. No wonder Harry saw it, no wonder Harry was the miracle, he created a freak accident of self annihilation that allowed him to see the world as a several meter tall insect would. Instinctual, no past, no future, just now. Seeing things for what they are, context removed, only living with the face value of things, and what you feel in the moment. No one else saw the phasmid until that moment because no one else shared its view of the world. Kim saw it because he had you, learned from you, as insane as it was. You, a being of utter insanity, are the one who set up the dance club. Harry is nothing but now, all the time. Super hardcore. Lil Swamp Booger Baby fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 03:54
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Sekenr posted:And there is also a coalition ship Archer always on standby to shell the enemies of capital. But how is this possible if they travel via airships that are thrown in precise trajectories? Come to think of it, how is her yacht possible? it's possible to own a boat, yes Really, though, you can just sail a boat through the Pale. That's how they used to do it. They mostly use aerostatics now because they're faster and spending less time there is good, not because a regular boat wouldn't work.
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Nov 10, 2019 04:01
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And Finished my first playthrough. Wow...what a ride. So The Deserter. Can you get him to give you a clear reason why he killed the merc? Or are we just suppose to infer that the Union Boss put him up to it?
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Nov 10, 2019 04:10
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I think it's supposed to be a metaphor for how the past catches up with you.
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Nov 10, 2019 04:12
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BigRed0427 posted:And Finished my first playthrough. Wow...what a ride. yes you can
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Nov 10, 2019 04:41
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Have the developers explained anywhere, why "disco" ?
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Nov 10, 2019 04:45
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Why not?
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Nov 10, 2019 04:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Have the developers explained anywhere, why "disco" ? It's the jam my man
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Nov 10, 2019 04:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Have the developers explained anywhere, why "disco" ? Jazzpunk was taken
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Nov 10, 2019 05:02
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Perhaps a hamster posted:It's the Apocalypse, it's the White Frost from the Witcher, it's the Nothing from Neverending Story, it's global warming. I don't think it matters what it is other than that it's something brought about by humans and potentially signalling their end. No, it's a global warming metaphor, jesus loving christ.
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Nov 10, 2019 05:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Have the developers explained anywhere, why "disco" ? I assume part of it is just the perception of Disco as this whacky kind of lovely music genre boomers liked from the 70's, that wasn't exactly groundbreaking or rebellious. So making the washed up Alcoholic Detective really liking Disco Music taps into that and adds to the whole pathetic nature of the situation at game start.
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Nov 10, 2019 05:31
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BigRed0427 posted:And Finished my first playthrough. Wow...what a ride. You can get him to tell you why he *thinks* he did it. Might want to double check with your bug pal, though.
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Nov 10, 2019 05:38
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:You're looking at this too clinically. The Pale's primary purpose is thematic. Disco Elysium's world is a decaying one that is falling apart and diminishing as its inhabitants dwell in an idealized past even as they suffer and moulder because of that past. The Union and Wild Pines is ultimately the past repeating itself, hence the premonitions that the ultimate result will be the city getting blown to poo poo again as the "new Communards" head up against the "new Fascists." That's not very disco...
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Nov 10, 2019 05:47
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Fellatio del Toro posted:me, talking to the first person in the game: suggestion is my signature skill, so I guess I'll try it out on this lady, haha Didn't even have a high suggestion skill, I was just still experimenting with the game. It's a great bit of foreshadowing.
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Nov 10, 2019 05:55
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Arrhythmia posted:No, it's a global warming metaphor, jesus loving christ. Disagree. Doesn't fit with it creating holes in people's memories and filling them in with random thoughts and recollections of others. I agree with Little Swamp Booger Baby. The game's central theme is about people clinging to the past and dead ideologies beyond reason. The Pale symbolises the destructiveness of that. Edit: I'm going to guess the reason people thought of global warming is there's a line in the game about the Pale being a result of human activity and creativeness; sure, taken alone that supports that reading, but if you look at everything else said about the Pale it's not the best interpretation. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 06:00
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Neurosis posted:
The thing that particularly made me think of global warming was more how people react to its existence. That is, by desperately not thinking about it despite the fact that it's probably much more important than everything else going on. People refusing to consider it, to mobilize and try to do something about it. That's been very much in line with my own woes about global warming. I do like the thematic read, though. I'd ultimately just say it can be more than one thing.
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Nov 10, 2019 06:13
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For me, the main problem with seeing it as a direct global warming metaphor is that we know how to stop (or at least slow down or mitigate) global warming but lack the political will to actually follow through. While DE suggests that maybe happy feels and good vibes can fight the encroachment of the pale, that’s not a known fact to the inhabitants of the game’s universe. As far as pretty much anyone is concerned, it’s literally unstoppable, which is why nobody really talks about it; there’s no call to action to be made because the end of the world is coming and it’s simply inevitable. Most people have come to terms with that and just go about their lives.
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Nov 10, 2019 06:15
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Calico Heart posted:Also trying to decide how I feel about "The Pale". I loved the game and even it's spookier, weirder aspects but to me that element feels almost like too much. The strangeness of shivers and inland empire feel less special when there is a magic fog that's going to eat everything. The worldbuilding is really grand and fantastic but again "magic spaceships and lorries that travel through magic non-existence" is a weird thing for no one to talk about much. It's a meta thing about games and boundaries outside the screen but honestly that kind of rote element to the world feels a bit... beneath the game? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but I kinda would have preferred the game to just remain "an archepelago" with some under-the-surface weirdness. nuclear annihilation isnt really a common conversation topic either
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Nov 10, 2019 06:26
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It works both as a surface level global warming metaphor, while also being something incredibly different and thematically appropriate.
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Nov 10, 2019 06:31
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Verviticus posted:nuclear annihilation isnt really a common conversation topic either It will in 22 years
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Nov 10, 2019 07:04
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Skellybones posted:That's not very disco... Hardcore is the new disco, baby.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:29
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I am an artist, and liver damage is my art
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Nov 10, 2019 08:40
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Arrhythmia posted:No, it's a global warming metaphor, jesus loving christ. eta: actually, just remembered one more thing it kinda reminds me of. Stephen King's Langoliers. Perhaps a hamster fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 10:06
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:You're looking at this too clinically. The Pale's primary purpose is thematic. Disco Elysium's world is a decaying one that is falling apart and diminishing as its inhabitants dwell in an idealized past even as they suffer and moulder because of that past. The Union and Wild Pines is ultimately the past repeating itself, hence the premonitions that the ultimate result will be the city getting blown to poo poo again as the "new Communards" head up against the "new Fascists." this is an amazing analysis, ty
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Nov 10, 2019 10:50
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:You're looking at this too clinically. The Pale's primary purpose is thematic. Disco Elysium's world is a decaying one that is falling apart and diminishing as its inhabitants dwell in an idealized past even as they suffer and moulder because of that past. The Union and Wild Pines is ultimately the past repeating itself, hence the premonitions that the ultimate result will be the city getting blown to poo poo again as the "new Communards" head up against the "new Fascists." It's not. It's a world full of constant setbacks and compromised individuals and yet where people try despite that, in the hope that this time things are different, and maybe things will be.
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Nov 10, 2019 11:47
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