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Shbobdb posted:It's an interesting counterfactual: how would the show look if Sinclair had stayed on since he is valen. We know him being valen is set from the beginning No, it isn't. Originally Sinclair was exactly what the Minbari thought he was: a vessel for Valen's soul. Or, if you prefer, he was a psychological twin to Valen to a degree that the Triluminaries couldn't tell the difference. I actually prefer that explanation myself. It's a much better explanation for why humans other than Sinclair have whole or part Minbari souls, why the Minbari just happened to find their greatest leader's soul on the first pick, and why it appears to be the best souls of the Minbari that are no longer being reborn. Minbari souls aren't actually being reborn in humans; the Minbari are just in decline and no longer have people of such stature, and they discover that humans are no different to how Minbari used to be. The people with partial Minbari souls are like Minbari in some ways but not in others.
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Nov 8, 2019 09:19
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Jedit posted:No, it isn't. Originally Sinclair was exactly what the Minbari thought he was: a vessel for Valen's soul. Or, if you prefer, he was a psychological twin to Valen to a degree that the Triluminaries couldn't tell the difference. I actually prefer that explanation myself. It's a much better explanation for why humans other than Sinclair have whole or part Minbari souls, why the Minbari just happened to find their greatest leader's soul on the first pick, and why it appears to be the best souls of the Minbari that are no longer being reborn. Minbari souls aren't actually being reborn in humans; the Minbari are just in decline and no longer have people of such stature, and they discover that humans are no different to how Minbari used to be. The people with partial Minbari souls are like Minbari in some ways but not in others. I think the triluminaries might have been actually detecting Sinclair's DNA. I think the season 4 episode "Atonement" strongly alludes to that: the triluminary glowed for Delenn when she was sworn into the Grey Council. Dukhat knows what that means: she is a child of Valen.
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Nov 8, 2019 16:13
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I think the triluminaries might have been actually detecting Sinclair's DNA. I think the season 4 episode "Atonement" strongly alludes to that: the triluminary glowed for Delenn when she was sworn into the Grey Council. Dukhat knows what that means: she is a child of Valen. Agreed, the whole "Minbari souls reincarnating in human bodies" theory only was a convenient lie the religious caste leaders made up to cover up the origina of Valen and fulfill the prophecy about the upcoming war with the Shadows
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Nov 8, 2019 16:33
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Jedit posted:No, it isn't. Originally Sinclair was exactly what the Minbari thought he was: a vessel for Valen's soul. Or, if you prefer, he was a psychological twin to Valen to a degree that the Triluminaries couldn't tell the difference. I actually prefer that explanation myself. It's a much better explanation for why humans other than Sinclair have whole or part Minbari souls, why the Minbari just happened to find their greatest leader's soul on the first pick, and why it appears to be the best souls of the Minbari that are no longer being reborn. Minbari souls aren't actually being reborn in humans; the Minbari are just in decline and no longer have people of such stature, and they discover that humans are no different to how Minbari used to be. The people with partial Minbari souls are like Minbari in some ways but not in others. When B^2 was aired at a con it was described as the original ending. Not sure if that was showmanship but if it wasn't, well. Also since souls are real in B5 it's not like you need a scientific explanation. I agree the DNA makes sense (that's why I mentioned valen crushed rear end) but it doesn't need to be DNA. The soul testing device could just test for souls, which are real. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 16:34
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I mean maybe souls are real and tangibly detectable, or maybe they aren't and the religious caste was detecting something else which they described by proxy as souls. It's the whole mysterious soulhunter orbs thing all over again. God knows how all the soul accountancy works out when you try factoring in Delenn.
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Nov 8, 2019 19:29
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Finishing up In The Beginning. Kind of strange that Sheridan had met Steve and G'kar (so far) during the war. When Sheridan gets to B5 in season 2, does he show familiarity with them at all? I only recall him knowing Inovova.
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Nov 9, 2019 15:37
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I like in the beginning more than most but think of it as B5:muppet babies. Only it is a movie based on everyone knowing each other earlier than they did in a franchise as opposed to a franchise where everyone knows each other earlier than in a movie. Since they move in powerful circles it isn't totally unreasonable but some of the specifics suffer from prequel poisoning.
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Nov 9, 2019 16:36
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In the Beginning kind of re-writes a bunch of stuff. Personally, I take the details like that with a grain of salt and think of it like a meta Made For TV dramatization.
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Nov 9, 2019 16:36
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All of B5 feels like a PBS docudrama and should be understood in that light. "Brought to you by the New Babylon Project (a trust of the Edgars corporation), the Anlashok and viewers like you."
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Nov 9, 2019 16:43
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Doctor Zero posted:In the Beginning kind of re-writes a bunch of stuff. Personally, I take the details like that with a grain of salt and think of it like a meta Made For TV dramatization. It is lando telling a story
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Nov 9, 2019 16:44
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I bet aliens have serious face blindness with each other. Londo: "Commander Sheridan, as I told you the other day..." Sheridan: "We haven't spoken in weeks." Ivanova: "You told me that, I am working on it."
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Nov 9, 2019 16:53
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Good points all around, I really enjoyed it. Was nice seeing O'hare again, were those new shots they brought him back for or just old ones.
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Nov 9, 2019 16:57
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TraderStav posted:Good points all around, I really enjoyed it. Was nice seeing O'hare again, were those new shots they brought him back for or just old ones. All stuff from And the Sky Full of Stars
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Nov 9, 2019 17:40
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Shbobdb posted:All of B5 feels like a PBS docudrama and should be understood in that light. "Brought to you by the New Babylon Project (a trust of the Edgars corporation), the Anlashok and viewers like you." Yeah, one of my watchthroughs got me thinking: the show has you rooting for a military rebellion against a democratically-elected government, and ultimately a coup d'etat lead by the same rebels. Couldn't this be a propaganda show made to justify the coup in retrospect?
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Nov 9, 2019 19:02
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Shbobdb posted:All of B5 feels like a PBS docudrama and should be understood in that light. "Brought to you by the New Babylon Project (a trust of the Edgars corporation), the Anlashok and viewers like you." I had to do a double-take to make sure it wasn't platonicsolids posting that. Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, one of my watchthroughs got me thinking: the show has you rooting for a military rebellion against a democratically-elected government, and ultimately a coup d'etat lead by the same rebels. Couldn't this be a propaganda show made to justify the coup in retrospect? Now you're thinking with goodfacts.
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Nov 9, 2019 19:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, one of my watchthroughs got me thinking: the show has you rooting for a military rebellion against a democratically-elected government, and ultimately a coup d'etat lead by the same rebels. Couldn't this be a propaganda show made to justify the coup in retrospect? I love this take and going to think this is the case going forward
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Nov 9, 2019 19:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, one of my watchthroughs got me thinking: the show has you rooting for a military rebellion against a democratically-elected government, and ultimately a coup d'etat lead by the same rebels. Couldn't this be a propaganda show made to justify the coup in retrospect? Arguably, Clark did a coup first by assassinating his predecessor. Which I guess is a condemnation of the presidential system. Governments that hand ultimate power to one individual are more prone for schenanigans where the democratic process is subverted by somebody who ordinarily couldn't get through an election. Although you can still get something like Napoleon III. Largely the show is fairly neutral about most of the current politics of the time outside of the most broad strokes like fascism bad, conquest bad, mass incarceration and de facto slavery probably bad. Those are things that a work of propaganda could fabricate or embellish while downplaying the other side.
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Nov 9, 2019 19:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:Arguably, Clark did a coup first by assassinating his predecessor. Yeah, if you believe what the show tells you.
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Nov 9, 2019 19:39
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Bieeanshee posted:I had to do a double-take to make sure it wasn't platonicsolids posting that. I find this far more gratifying than I should.  SlothfulCobra posted:
Truly America's most dangerous export. Platonicsolid fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 19:41
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Clark gets the Richard III treatment.
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Nov 9, 2019 20:08
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SlothfulCobra posted:Largely the show is fairly neutral about most of the current politics of the time outside of the most broad strokes like fascism bad, conquest bad, mass incarceration and de facto slavery probably bad. Those are things that a work of propaganda could fabricate or embellish while downplaying the other side. I'd say it's more political than you give it credit for. "Rush act" and being pro-labor is a radical stance now, let alone in the '90s. Extrapolating from conservative movements in the '90s to call things that the Bush administration did in the aftermath of 9/11 takes a clear political vision. The existence of a downtrodden and exploited underclass, Telepaths as a metaphor for homosexuality, there is a lot going on. They just don't beat you over the head with it. Which is funny because "subtle" isn't something I'd normally use to describe B5.
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Nov 9, 2019 20:12
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TraderStav posted:Finishing up In The Beginning. JMS addressed that online, at least in part. What I remember: First, in Season 2, you never seen Sheridan and Franklin meet. I was watching for this, in my rewatch, and it's true: Franklin's not in the first episode, and only shows up in the second to talk to Sheridan after hours about using the healing machine. From their first conversation, it seems like it's not the very first time they've met. Second, it was one mission, eleven or twelve years ago, right? So it's less "familiar" and more "oh yeah, you, I've worked with you before, right?" Ivanova was stationed under Sheridan long-term, and more recently. Don't remember him saying anything about G'Kar.
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Nov 9, 2019 20:16
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Platonicsolid posted:I find this far more gratifying than I should. I remember that fullsave message fondly. 
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Nov 9, 2019 20:18
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, if you believe what the show tells you. I mean, sure, if you declare the entire text as suspect you can say whatever you want. 
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Nov 9, 2019 20:18
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I mean, sure, if you declare the entire text as suspect you can say whatever you want. Exactly! 
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Nov 9, 2019 20:29
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Vavrek posted:JMS addressed that online, at least in part. What I remember: First, in Season 2, you never seen Sheridan and Franklin meet. I was watching for this, in my rewatch, and it's true: Franklin's not in the first episode, and only shows up in the second to talk to Sheridan after hours about using the healing machine. From their first conversation, it seems like it's not the very first time they've met. Second, it was one mission, eleven or twelve years ago, right? So it's less "familiar" and more "oh yeah, you, I've worked with you before, right?" Ivanova was stationed under Sheridan long-term, and more recently. I'll hand wave this away as the above posters suggested, but if I were bombed at from orbit and barely got away with my life, taken into alien captivity, and nearly executed I think I would have built a bit more of a rapport and familiarity pretty quickly with that person. There's random people that I work with that I had a meeting with once a decade ago that we still say hey to eachother in the elevator or passing in the hallway on the rare occasion when we see eachother. I love that this is my only real gripe about the whole thing. Testament to the quality of this narrative. It just keeps gobsmacking me the more I think about it.
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Nov 9, 2019 20:56
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It's been a while since I've watched In The Beginning and I honestly don't remember the plot. I just skimmed the Lurker's Guide entry a few weeks ago, so I remembered that point. In my current rewatch news, gosh I love this lady:  She's so terrible and so unapologetic about it. Actress does a great job. edit: This episode has reminded me of something from the first season, and a comment earlier in this thread: Delthalaz posted:OK, checking in about two thirds to three quarters or so of the way through season 2! Spoilering because why not? Londo is familiar with the third principle of sentient life: the capacity for self-sacrifice. Vavrek fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 21:17
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It just occurred to me that that the whole Minbari souls are in Humans thing is something that the Grey Council was wrong about but perhaps didn’t go back and correct because they had gone too far down on that thread and back tracking on it would compromise their position in the War against the shadows. Since it’s never brought up again, it really makes me think it’s the case. Although I do have Season 5 still to watch so maybe I’m wrong.
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Nov 9, 2019 22:35
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Just watched The Long, Twilight Struggle. Ugh, pretty bummed about the Narn
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Nov 10, 2019 01:23
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Genocide sucks, who'd have thought?
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Nov 10, 2019 01:30
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Delthalaz posted:Just watched The Long, Twilight Struggle. Ugh, pretty bummed about the Narn You begin to understand just why G'Kar is so angry about the Centauri. "They're doing it to us again!"
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Nov 10, 2019 02:06
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View from the gallery cracking me up ten minutes in! I was just asking myself the same thing what that future mop was supposed to do.
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Nov 10, 2019 04:22
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View From the Gallery is one of those low-key best episodes types. You don’t think about it much until someone mentions it but when it’s brought up you can’t think of anything bad about it.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:41
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The alien species that has never been seen before and comes out of nowhere and almost destroys the headquarters of the Interstellar Alliance in the process but are never ever mentioned again always felt dumb to me.
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Nov 10, 2019 08:07
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My problem with View from the Gallery is that it has an opportunity to veer off of the Great Man Theory of the series to actually follow the lives of ordinary folks, but they instead spend most of their time talking about how awesome the main characters are. Compare that to The Zeppo, Buffy S3E13, where Xander, mostly a sidekick in the show so far, is actually taken seriously as a lead in his own right for once.
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Nov 10, 2019 08:28
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Absurd Alhazred posted:My problem with View from the Gallery is that it has an opportunity to veer off of the Great Man Theory of the series to actually follow the lives of ordinary folks, but they instead spend most of their time talking about how awesome the main characters are. Compare that to The Zeppo, Buffy S3E13, where Xander, mostly a sidekick in the show so far, is actually taken seriously as a lead in his own right for once. Apart from being borderline raped by Faith, anyway.
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Nov 10, 2019 10:58
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TraderStav posted:View from the gallery cracking me up ten minutes in! Did you spot the hidden Goatsce in the episode near the end?
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Nov 10, 2019 12:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Did you spot the hidden Goatsce in the episode near the end? Yup. They just got right up in the too! JMS, you dog.
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Nov 10, 2019 13:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:My problem with View from the Gallery is that it has an opportunity to veer off of the Great Man Theory of the series to actually follow the lives of ordinary folks, but they instead spend most of their time talking about how awesome the main characters are. It's weird too because Season 5 is generally a bit better in general about going against Great Man ideas - Sheridan, Londo and G'Kar all at various points find themselves swept away by movements out of their control - but the one episode that really should be best suited for that sort of thing doesn't do that at all.
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Nov 10, 2019 14:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:My problem with View from the Gallery is that it has an opportunity to veer off of the Great Man Theory of the series to actually follow the lives of ordinary folks, but they instead spend most of their time talking about how awesome the main characters are. Compare that to The Zeppo, Buffy S3E13, where Xander, mostly a sidekick in the show so far, is actually taken seriously as a lead in his own right for once. Most of S5 veers off from the Great Man theory, starting with 501 which first stresses that Sheridan was “a good man”, then shows how Great Man mythology might be a way to preserve a memory and inspire people, then reminds us of the differences between a purely manufactured image of a historical figure and the power of the reality, and concludes suggesting that what a people chooses to become over time relates to the stories we tell. Then we get episodes about all the problems our “great men” can’t solve. Turns out the IA President rarely gets to blow things straight to hell, though Sheridan can certainly handle that when he has to. Even View is determined to show us the divide between how we see the main cast and how they're seen by other characters. And the admittedly artificial threat to the station is fought off with some help from some of the main cast, while being designed as a problem that doesn't admit to a Great Man solution.
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Nov 10, 2019 14:44
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