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wielder posted:It's not a direct comparison about the underlying situations, true, but a reaction to their portrayal through the lens of a particular "alternative" (well, only to an extent, since Telesur is ultimately state-funded in this case) media outlet. I guess I would say that this makes sense within the internal logic of Telesur. Telesur, as well as stuff like Russian and Chinese media, tend to oppose regime change and oppose separatism. If they’ve categorized Bolivia as the former and Hong Kong as the latter, that’s ideologically consistent even if you don’t like it/them. Whether they’re honest about how they portray these things or correct about that categorization is a different matter I suppose.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:26
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Interesting! Fair enough, that would seem to explain it. If this ends up with someone even more left-wing than Morales in power, I'm gonna laugh so hard.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:27
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V. Illych L. posted:the hong kong protests seem to be driven mainly by a completely insane local housing market, with which i'm sure most goons can sympathise. If that's what's driving those protests you'd think rent control or public housing units would be one of their five demands.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:27
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The difference between Hong Kong and Bolivia is that Hong Kong is protesting against fascists aligned with the PRC, a state capitalist regime with a veneer of socialism, whereas Bolivia is being couped by fascists aligned with the USA, a free market capitalist regime which actively hates any form of socialism, hence why Telesur is more sympathetic to a PRC-aligned movement than a USA-aligned movement Granted, there are probably countless USA sympathisers in the HK protestor camp and PRC sympathisers in the Bolivian antifascist camp, but by and large that's the overarching reason why leftist media is more sympathetic towards the Bolivian situation than the Hong Kong situation Venomous fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 17:30
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true.spoon posted:I hear this a lot but have never seen it really backed up (mainly the "mainly" part). most people don't see themselves as protesting against boring stuff like housing prices - one always likes to wrap oneself up in the flag of some higher purpose like democracy and liberty. generally, though, people seem quite happy to grumble and bear with it when their democratic rights are directly threatened so long as they're materially OK. for something like the HK protests to sustain itself, it seems to follow that there's a very real and very immediate source of all that frustration. given the demographics - mostly younger people, many well educated - housing seems like a likely driver. that the HK housing market is hosed up is easily verifiable, but i get the sense that this isn't your objection here. i'll admit again that this is pretty speculative, though, but it does seem like the most reasonable explanation to me
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Nov 12, 2019 17:32
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https://twitter.com/andraydomise/status/1194025206060343297?s=20 Lots of people with insider scoops in the US getting ready for a cash out.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:33
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From my understanding, the Hong Kong protesters are pretty ideologically diverse, so you have anarchists, libs, nationalists (would chauvinist be the better word in the case of a city-state?), and straight-up colonial revanchists simultaneously on the streets. You can get people of almost any stripe outside of Hong Kong supporting them for the same reason. Now, naturally, western intelligence apparatchiks are going to favor the right wing of the movement, but they're not the only people out there. So it's not really useful to draw parallels between what's going on Hong Kong and other major protest movements because you can always point to a different tendency.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:37
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Flip Yr Wig posted:From my understanding, the Hong Kong protesters are pretty ideologically diverse, so you have anarchists, libs, nationalists (would chauvinist be the better word in the case of a city-state?), and straight-up colonial revanchists simultaneously on the streets. You can get people of almost any stripe outside of Hong Kong supporting them for the same reason. Now, naturally, western intelligence apparatchiks are going to favor the right wing of the movement, but they're not the only people out there.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:53
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/11/11/john-cobin-chile-shooting-protesters-video/quote:John Cobin, a U.S.-born economist and former member of a neo-Confederate group, is so passionate about a free market — and about Chile — that he has devoted the past two decades to marrying the two. 
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Nov 12, 2019 17:55
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V. Illych L. posted:most people don't see themselves as protesting against boring stuff like housing prices - one always likes to wrap oneself up in the flag of some higher purpose like democracy and liberty. generally, though, people seem quite happy to grumble and bear with it when their democratic rights are directly threatened so long as they're materially OK. for something like the HK protests to sustain itself, it seems to follow that there's a very real and very immediate source of all that frustration. given the demographics - mostly younger people, many well educated - housing seems like a likely driver.
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Nov 12, 2019 17:57
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true.spoon posted:Would you apply the same kind of analysis to Catalonia? Like that their protest is in reality about unemployment or whatever? They do have a very high rate of unemployment, just not as high as the rest of Spain and many Catalonians are mad that the Madrid government is taking their money and giving it to other (poor) areas of Spain (though to be fair corruption and mismanagement means much of this transfer doesn't end up doing much good).
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Nov 12, 2019 18:02
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true.spoon posted:Would you apply the same kind of analysis to Catalonia? Like that their protest is in reality about unemployment or whatever? He's not saying that the protest is "in reality about" housing prices, just that that's the factor that actually activated people and drove them out into the streets. The February Revolution wasn't "really" about bread prices, to the exclusion of other factors, but that was what activated many of the protesters to take mass action and topple the Tsarist government.
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Nov 12, 2019 18:06
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Demiurge4 posted:https://twitter.com/andraydomise/status/1194025206060343297?s=20 I'm a bit skeptical of the lithium explanation for the coup, or rather, of lithium as the only explanation - if Bolivia caught up to Chile levels of production and we use current lithium price levels (which, fine, whatever, that vaguely approximates the international interest in making lithium prices go DOWN) annual lithium production would total something along the lines of $600m, or 15%ish of current Bolivian exports, or 30%ish of current Bolivian hydrocarbon exports, or 3% of the country's GDP. That's not nothing, but it's just part of the overall denationalization basket for why international capitalism is likely to back the coup. edit specifically, Bolivian hydrocarbons are a significantly juicier target Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 18:11
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true.spoon posted:Would you apply the same kind of analysis to Catalonia? Like that their protest is in reality about unemployment or whatever? i'd say that the primary driver in catalonia is likely also material, yes, but with the caveat that i haven't actually read much about that situation and can't really go into specifics the EU does go a long way in ameliorating such issues, though, since people can often just move somewhere else. randarkman proposes that they're a relatively wealthy region seeing consistent transfers away from them without the sort of influence one would normally expect, and that seems like a reasonable suggestion to me - but again, i've read very little about catalonian separatism.
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Nov 12, 2019 18:12
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Elias_Maluco posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/11/11/john-cobin-chile-shooting-protesters-video/ Poor guy picked the wrong country, should have gone to Santa Cruz and joined his confederate friends there, he'd still be shooting now
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Nov 12, 2019 18:16
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Ornedan posted:It's a common neo-nazi tactic to deny themselves being nazis since they are not literally members of the original german nazi party. Just happen to share the same ideology, aims (adjusting for local minorities), flag and salutes. But totally not nazis. Main Paineframe posted:This quote pretty much sums up the tone of that whole article:
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Nov 12, 2019 18:16
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How can I support the leftists?
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Nov 12, 2019 18:37
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V. Illych L. posted:i'd say that the primary driver in catalonia is likely also material, yes, but with the caveat that i haven't actually read much about that situation and can't really go into specifics
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Nov 12, 2019 18:53
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Evo made it safely to Mexico 
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Nov 12, 2019 18:55
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Chuka Umana posted:How can I support the leftists? If you live in the US, Canada, Germany, etc - your government and ruling class support the coup and are backing it materially, you can organize to fight them on this. Edit: Baronjutter posted:If you live in Canada and were wanting to do some direct action, the mining companies most likely funding the coup all all HQ'd here for the most part and even have their addresses listed. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 18:56
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Elias_Maluco posted:Can't we all agree that, even if he did some questionable stuff, none justify the coup and that this is, really, a coup? Yeah, this is the point that needs to be pounded home every time something like this happens. It literally doesn't matter even if the government did bad things - that still doesn't justify a coup. And this is *especially* the case when the opposition is more right-wing than the current government, which is basically an absolute guarantee that they would be worse if put in power. This logic should be flipped entirely on its head. These conversations should revolve around people justifying why a coup is necessary - they shouldn't revolve around having to defend the government that was couped (or is in the process of an attempted coup). The logic that dominates in these discussions can be used to justify "regime change" in the vast majority of countries on this planet, because all it requires is an argument that the current government has possibly done bad or questionable things. Cerebral Bore posted:Dude when you've become so unhinged because of your personal internet grudges that you start carrying water for literal ultra-catholic fascists then it might be time to take a step back and reassess the situation. This is ultimately what most of the pro-coup/"regime change" arguments from liberals come down to - more than anything else, they hate a certain concept they have of "unreasonable leftists." They hate it so much that they'd sooner support explicit right-wingers than be on the same side of an argument as someone like Glenn Greenwald.
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Nov 12, 2019 18:59
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If you live in Canada and were wanting to do some direct action, the mining companies most likely funding the coup all all HQ'd here for the most part and even have their addresses listed.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:00
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Baronjutter posted:If you live in Canada and were wanting to do some direct action, the mining companies most likely funding the coup all all HQ'd here for the most part and even have their addresses listed. And you should not publicly post about whatever it is you plan to do, even if it’s just protests, because this is a public forum and cops can use the internet too.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:07
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I've been trying to figure out a couple detail things. - It looks like Anez (the number three in the Senate, and coincidentally the highest anti-Morales person in the line of succession) was in fact confirmed by the Senate as interim president yesterday. - I can't quite tell who exactly has issued which arrest warrants / arrested which people. I think the first two (for the two heads of the electoral commission) came from the 'attorney general', but english-language reporting on that is shoddy and I'm not very good at googling for spanish things. The solicitor general is the head of the Department of Justice, and the attorney general is supposed 'to defend judicially or extra judicially the state interests', but they're both Morales appointees so... it would make sense for them to questionably detain the first electoral folks to try and calm poo poo down, but it would be weird for them to start rubber stamping arrests? I guess they could be intimidated by the military, but the modus operandi in other cases seems to be "force resignations until you get someone you like"? - I have no particular idea why the National Police Commander resigned after being one of the major voices for Morales' resignation and arresting a buncha people including those first two, but to be fair, it sounds like nobody else does either. - Specifically, the arrest video that was making the rounds is the National Police Commander displaying the two election board folks, post-resignation and during ongoing arrests. Fake edit: okay, looks like state prosecutors are under the attorney general's office, this is helping clear things up. The current guy is Juan Lanchipa Ponce. He announced arrest instructions on Coup Day but apparently before the coup (so, that's interesting) and is standing behind not just the arrests of the electoral commission president and vice president but also the other... 34? election-related arrests/detentions. https://www.icndiario.com/2019/11/presidenta-del-tribunal-electoral-admite-el-fraude-y-dijo-ser-prisionera-de-presiones/ Not a lot of other new-as-in-the-past-week reporting on the guy. It's not like he's going to come out and say "yep, the army told me to sign off on this", at least not while in office / in Bolivia. Redczar posted:Evo made it safely to Mexico 
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Nov 12, 2019 |
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Nov 12, 2019 19:10
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oh also it sounds like atm there's not a (federal, official, from the Attorney General) arrest warrant out for Morales, the police commander issued a rebuttal to That rear end in a top hat Camacho clarifying the instructions he had from the AG (focused on electoral commission members, not Morales) https://www.swissinfo.ch/ita/bolivia--polizia--nessun-ordine-di-arresto-per-morales/45361196 also being reported in telesur with a video clip, but I'm not giving them clicks 
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Nov 12, 2019 19:15
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Clearly the only thing anyone upset at canadian mining companies funding fascist coups should use with the ability to look up the physical addresses of mining company offices or even the home addresses of the executives is to mail them polite and sincere letters letting them know your disagreements with their policies and business practices. Perhaps a protest, but make sure to get local police permission and any local permits needed before doing so. I would never suggest people do terrible things like smashing windows, calling in bomb threats, or burning the homes of the executive class down. Those types of acts only make us look bad and no political movement has ever gained anything from illegal acts.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:16
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Why was the venezuela thread closed?
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Nov 12, 2019 19:24
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Gozinbulx posted:Why was the venezuela thread closed? Because the coup failed, thank God.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:28
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I've never been an Evo supporter but seeing Bolsonaro clones sprout is sickening. And yes, tearing and burning Wiphala flags is just wrong and stupid.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:32
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Majorian posted:Because the coup failed, thank God. And therefore there is no more to discuss.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:37
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Gozinbulx posted:And therefore there is no more to discuss. If you think there's enough to justify its own thread, have at it. 
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Nov 12, 2019 19:38
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Majorian posted:Because the coup failed, thank God. and now fortunately there's nothing interesting going on in Venezuela actually, speaking of which, while I'm on a bit of a content roll, fake edit: naturally, half the venezuela news is "fortunately, maduro maintains much better control of the military and police than morales did" Venezuela selling cut-price oil as sanctions bite, moderately interesting economic-impact stuff good few articles about Venezuelan emigration to various places, some of it more fearmongery Most recent Venezuelablog weeklypost: https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-weekly-new-electoral-council-elections/ NYTimes commissioned a water quality study in Venezuela and doesn't appear to be linking the actual study in their article on it, those fuckers: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/19/world/americas/venezuela-water.html Big deal with an Indian firm to maybe rebuild Venezuelan oil infrastructure: https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...pair-refineries Majorian posted:If you think there's enough to justify its own thread, have at it. we can put it in this thread 
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Nov 12, 2019 19:41
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By the way, Camacho, the guy frequently called "Bolivia's Bolsonaro," had several private meetings with Bolsonaro in April of this year. The idea that this coup was just a spur of the moment thing is naive.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:41
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Is anyone claiming this was spur of the moment? I assume this has been in motion one way or another since Morales said we stand for election again after the supreme court ruling.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:44
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GreyjoyBastard posted:we can put it in this thread Yeah, that's kind of what I was hinting at. I don't care if there's a separate thread for Venezuela or not, I'm just saying that's probably the reason why there hasn't been a new version of that thread so far.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:44
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Gozinbulx posted:Is anyone claiming this was spur of the moment? I assume this has been in motion one way or another since Morales said we stand for election again after the supreme court ruling. The official story in virtually all American media right now is that this isn't a coup, but the democratic outcome of protesters taking to the streets to say enough to authoritarianism.
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Nov 12, 2019 19:45
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joepinetree posted:The official story in virtually all American media right now is that this isn't a coup, but the democratic outcome of protesters taking to the streets to say enough to authoritarianism. note: i'm not going to subject myself to tv news, this is a quick skim of some online print presence CNN: noncommittal / bothsidesy Fox: lol take a wild guess NBC: noncommittal / bothsidesy, but probably the most "uh this feels a bit coup-y" of these big four MSNBC: noncommittal / bothsidesy NYT: Bolivia Crisis shows the blurry line between coup and uprising Wapo: After Morales resignation, a question for Bolivia: Was this the democratic will or a coup? Salon... good?: Global left condemns "appalling" Bolivia coup as Evo Morales forced from power AP Explains: Did a coup force Bolivia's president to resign? conclusion: "maybe and the military's involvement is unsettling regardless"
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Nov 12, 2019 19:58
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GreyjoyBastard posted:note: i'm not going to subject myself to tv news, this is a quick skim of some online print presence
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Nov 12, 2019 20:07
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Telesur is literal state propaganda, it says the right thing only when it is convenient to its narrative (yes I know first world media is also bad and respond to its own propaganda model). It's utter garbage.
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Nov 12, 2019 20:17
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Bob le Moche posted:You seem to be pretty aware of how untrustworthy the reporting from these sources can be on topics like this, so I really don't mean this in a lovely way but maybe it might be worth reconsidering the "Telesur lol" attitude you expressed earlier in response to a link someone posted, considering that for all its flaws it is one of the only outlets out there willing to actually call this coup what it is... Still doesn't mean they're particularly useful as a source without other corroboration and calibration, particularly when the media being posted is a tweet without attached article. although if they'd managed to post a longer excerpt from the video that tweet might have been at least somewhat informative for Spanish speakers, seeing as the video is a primary source from the cops
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Nov 12, 2019 20:21
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