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Chill la Chill posted:I’m going to assume this is a 3P game and you’re going to give two of those trains immediately to your second company, who’ll have enough capital to get a 3 or 4 immediately. 5p and I'm going to go for the NNH fuckery to force everyone to start buying trains like mad and then hope that I can somehow survive.
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Nov 13, 2019 23:19
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As long as there are a few viable first moves, it's fine. The way the discussion was going it sounded like there was really only one.
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Nov 13, 2019 23:31
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Pax Pam's got 2 mercy rules: the 4 point kill switch and the last scoring be worth double. Which is like, Supermarket Sweep level bullshit but hey, it works.
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Nov 13, 2019 23:43
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armorer posted:As long as there are a few viable first moves, it's fine. The way the discussion was going it sounded like there was really only one. Base FCM definitely has a plurality of valid opening moves. Speaking of, I know 2 people w/ the Ketchup Experiment since Essen, and they show no sign of inviting me to play it. C'mon guys, get your act together.
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Nov 13, 2019 23:45
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Mr. Squishy posted:Base FCM definitely has a plurality of valid opening moves. No it doesn't. It has T1 Recruiting girl. That is it. T1 Trainer isn't viable against good players (see the BGG tournaments). Other stuff is viable in a less than 1/40 game basis. Edit: I think trainer is 'good enough' to feel viable against mediocre players (like me!) But it cannot hang at a higher level of play. Edit 2: if you want to do a quick start you could deal out two recruiting girls and a trainer then start the game turn 3 (which has the advantage that turn order should be the same as turn 1). Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 00:22
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To say the game (base or expansion) has scripted openings as a criticism and ignore the vast amount of interplay between them and branching decisions from turn 2 is being extremely reductive if not outright misrepresentative of the game. Even if all players go RG it is still a game of deep strategy and they will not be scripted at all past that initial hire.Jedit posted:To me, that's the reason I haven't bought FCM. If there are too many first turn trap moves, then the decision space is rendered artificially small and the game becomes scripted. this is so far from the truth that I can't believe you've actually played it. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 01:12
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Bottom Liner posted:To say the game (base or expansion) has scripted openings as a criticism and ignore the vast amount of interplay between them and branching decisions from turn 2 is being extremely reductive if not outright misrepresentative of the game. Even if all players go RG it is still a game of deep strategy and they will not be scripted at all past that initial hire. Fwiw: T2 is scripted as well. T3 however instantly and massively branches. I don't think saying it's scripted is a valid critique because of the blossoming if options in T3. I do think there are no meaningful decisions to be made in the first two turns of game play. I think this is a valid critique because of their stated decision philosophy is that T1 decisions should really matter. Yes they made the decision really matter, but it's almost not a decision as a result. I do not make a decision when I play FCM: I just take a RG turn 1 100% of the time. Turn 2 you take another recruiting girl and a trainer unless someone took a trainer T1. If they did you take a marketing trainee. This is not a meaningful strategic decision and is poor design: the Ketchup Mechanism patch that attempts to force three viable turn 1 openings clearly shows they see the problem as well. I do think FCM is a good game: but it is in despite of the first two turns. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 01:20
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Fwiw: T2 is scripted as well. T3 however instantly and massively branches. I do think there are no meaningful decisions to be made in the first two turns of game play. Even with original milestones, the biggest decision you make in the game is often initial restaurant placement. And the first turn takes 10 seconds, not like a long slog of a round. You get to the meat of normal turns in like 2 minutes.
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Nov 14, 2019 01:34
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Bottom Liner posted:Even with original milestones, the biggest decision you make in the game is often initial restaurant placement. And the first turn takes 10 seconds, not like a long slog of a round. You get to the meat of normal turns in like 2 minutes. Yeah I agree, but their explicitly stated design objective was that all the decisions should be meaningful and high impact and they only managed the second part of that. Just compare it to Indonesia's decision space. The decisions are meaningful and high impact throughout the game (except generally the last operating companies turn which is elaborated scoring). Indonesia does a lot better on delivering the promise of all decisions are meaningful and matter. The new milestones look like a solid fix but I wonder if they are actually balanced
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Nov 14, 2019 01:37
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:
I have a lot of plays in now and I still can't decide either. Trainer is crazy, RG is even better than before, and with the rulebook clarification that Marketer can make range go negative that seems insane, especially if base price goes down with reserve reveals. I think they're going to come down to new reserves and pricing effects making each opener stronger in game varying game lengths, and making price management way more important and involved than before (since traditional price war slogs are also removed). RG seems safe overall still, Marketer might dominate short games, and trainer long, but who knows.
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Nov 14, 2019 01:41
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hnnh all of that sounds so good but I hardly play my copy and it's so expensive. I'd windmill it at $80 despite that, but I think $120 is going to be too much.
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Nov 14, 2019 05:58
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FCM's front-loaded decisions are so 1. not necessarily important if no one knows them, and 2. easy to explain once you understand them, that the only time it ever truly becomes an issue is both have a new player with vets and no one helps the new player on their first turn. IMO that is not bad design, that's people choosing an opening. You might as well have a trainer or a recruiter 'faction' people pick. that's your archetypal turn 0 yeah? faction selection? Except splotter doesn't do that because 'choosing a faction' adds more rules than 'these two things are essentially character powers the table chooses between'. I would rather a ruleset be elegant than perfectly newbie-friendly, particularly for a very easy springloaded "choose trainer or recruiter in first round" a phrase is going to be coming out of the vets. In fact, more games should be elegant in this way. My favorite part of a game when the connections between the pieces on the table suddenly take on deeper meaning, constellating into a perfect image that tells me I hosed up 4 turns ago, because i failed to grasp the importance of clay. Impermanent fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 06:08
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Why not have both ala Indonesia? The expansions approach is much better because it gives you some guide rails to not making a crap turn 1 decision.
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Nov 14, 2019 07:03
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Why not have both ala Indonesia? you still have a meaningful choice - there are two openers. that's clearly a level of intent. choosing one indicates a certain broader strategy, choosing another indicates a different broad strategy. you're broadcasting the kind of thing you're going to be into over the course of the game with your opener. Certain layouts may be better/worse for one of the strats. You're being reductive here and I think you know that.
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Nov 14, 2019 07:25
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Let's just say FCM's actual turn 1 choice is where you place your restaurant.
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Nov 14, 2019 07:36
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Tom Russell is designing a new one called Westphalia, a 6-player asymmetric negotiation mapgame about the settlement of the Thirty Years' and Eighty Years' Wars. Design diaries here. I would probably enjoy it quite a bit but it would sure be hard to get to the table. Said to be available around the end of November.
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Nov 14, 2019 07:46
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Impermanent posted:you still have a meaningful choice - there are two openers. that's clearly a level of intent. choosing one indicates a certain broader strategy, choosing another indicates a different broad strategy. you're broadcasting the kind of thing you're going to be into over the course of the game with your opener. Certain layouts may be better/worse for one of the strats. You're being reductive here and I think you know that. There isn't a second choice, on the BGG tournaments Trainer's winrate is 0%
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Nov 14, 2019 08:37
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Is this a correlation/causation thing where trainer win rate is 0% because nobody takes first turn trainer or is it a case among equally skilled players you cannot win taking trainers first?
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Nov 14, 2019 08:45
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al-azad posted:Let's just say FCM's actual turn 1 choice is where you place your restaurant. It still goes against Solotters intent which is you can lose the game on turn one. Which you can't as there's no real choice on turn 1 or 2. Imagine a game where it's everyone's first game. There's a right choice and some trap choices which is bad game design. Then consider everyone knows what they're doing then those first 2 turns are pointless. There's no meaningful interaction or decision making in a game, which by design is supposed to put a lot of weight on each choice. People keep comparing FCM to chess but in chess you pick your opening but then by your first or second move you are reacting and responding to your opponents opening. Not going through the motions till game actually starts.
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Nov 14, 2019 08:54
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Aramoro posted:It still goes against Solotters intent which is you can lose the game on turn one. Which you can't as there's no real choice on turn 1 or 2. Imagine a game where it's everyone's first game. There's a right choice and some trap choices which is bad game design. Then consider everyone knows what they're doing then those first 2 turns are pointless. There's no meaningful interaction or decision making in a game, which by design is supposed to put a lot of weight on each choice. If the opening is placing a restaurant and choosing a reserve then your second move is where the game actually begins?
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Nov 14, 2019 09:04
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Aramoro posted:People keep comparing FCM to chess but in chess you pick your opening but then by your first or second move you are reacting and responding to your opponents opening. Not going through the motions till game actually starts. That's dead wrong. The first few moves of chess are super important and people often memorize openings 7-8 moves deep before they have to start improvising.
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Nov 14, 2019 09:10
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Rutibex posted:That's dead wrong. The first few moves of chess are super important and people often memorize openings 7-8 moves deep before they have to start improvising. Absolutely not because there's a choice of openings and whilst what you do might be pretty much scripted there's still interaction as you're working out what your opponents opening is. There are 4 good first moves for white, 1 of those, 1.C4, has essentially 1 follow up, but 1.E4 has 4 or 5 openings that follow from it and which one you do depends on what your opponent did. After 2 moves there are 12 possible good openings for white. So unless you pick 1.C4 you still have legitimate choices on turn 2. So there's a dozen good choices for an opening which is significantly more than FCM's one.
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Nov 14, 2019 09:23
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Aramoro posted:Absolutely not because there's a choice of openings and whilst what you do might be pretty much scripted there's still interaction as you're working out what your opponents opening is. There are 4 good first moves for white, 1 of those, 1.C4, has essentially 1 follow up, but 1.E4 has 4 or 5 openings that follow from it and which one you do depends on what your opponent did. After 2 moves there are 12 possible good openings for white. So unless you pick 1.C4 you still have legitimate choices on turn 2. Your a fool if you don't go Queens Gambit 
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Nov 14, 2019 09:24
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al-azad posted:Is this a correlation/causation thing where trainer win rate is 0% because nobody takes first turn trainer or is it a case among equally skilled players you cannot win taking trainers first? I've been reading up on strategy on BGG, and pretty much everyone is saying that Trainer is an inferior opening to RG. So it could be a bit of both: RG has a small edge, so nobody takes Trainer.
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Nov 14, 2019 09:37
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al-azad posted:Is this a correlation/causation thing where trainer win rate is 0% because nobody takes first turn trainer or is it a case among equally skilled players you cannot win taking trainers first? Lots of people actually took it (about 20% of all first turn selections in 4 player games). They all lost.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:24
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I'm waiting until FCM gets a popular app and we see what the chinese are up to.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:25
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:Lots of people actually took it (about 20% of all first turn selections in 4 player games). Where are you seeing these? I was curious and tried to look it up. The last 'standard' tournament I could find a thread for was in 2017, and trainer first won at least once. For the last two years all I can find is 2v2 tournaments
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Nov 14, 2019 13:39
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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I do not understand why people are so insistent that the FCM opening isn't a problem/bad design. It's okay for a good game to have bad parts.
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Nov 14, 2019 13:40
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This all just reinforces my idea that if I ever play the unexpanded version again with new players I'm just going to hand a recruiting girl to everyone at setup. I don't mind the idea of having a game be loseable on the first turn, but that should be a consequence of improperly evaluating the board and/or not responding to what other players are doing, not as a consequence of a new player failing to do one specific thing that they'd never know about. Strategy traps aren't meaningful decisions.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:47
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I'm reminded of those old Sierra graphic adventure games where you walk into a library and there's a big book on a lectern and you type "READ BOOK" and then a snake jumps out of the book and bites you in the face and the game says "YOU DIED."
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Nov 14, 2019 14:48
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Even better, those text adventures, where if you don't keep that item you get at the start, you'll lose many hours in.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:52
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silvergoose posted:Even better, those text adventures, where if you don't keep that item you get at the start, you'll lose many hours in. Oh yeah the loving bag of oranges! Baahaha I forgot about that one - which game was that?
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Nov 14, 2019 14:53
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CommonShore posted:Oh yeah the loving bag of oranges! Baahaha I forgot about that one - which game was that? Dunno, I was thinking of the magazines and something else in the hitchhikers guide one! I managed to solve the babelfish puzzle with no hints and then stopped, triumphant.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:58
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Tom Russell is designing a new one called Westphalia, a 6-player asymmetric negotiation mapgame about the settlement of the Thirty Years' and Eighty Years' Wars. Design diaries here. I would probably enjoy it quite a bit but it would sure be hard to get to the table. Said to be available around the end of November. I didn't realize the bgg stub for this was up! I've been following it on their podcast thing and twitter posts. I don't even have six people in my gaming group, but I'll probably be picking this up during the winter sale.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:58
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On the grand list of bad design on beloved games like first player getting two actions in T&E or no interest loans in Wealth of Nations, recruiting girl is pretty low. e: poo poo, my favorite game Container falls apart when the economy dries up and that’s not even something first timers can intuit.
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Nov 14, 2019 15:28
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If I ever play a game of FCM again, I'm just going to forgo the first turn and say "okay you start with a recruiter" And I guess deal with whatever administration is also required from the first turn (I don't remember, it's been a long time), but I'm not even giving the choice unless the people I'm playing with are veterans of the game.
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Nov 14, 2019 15:35
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Morpheus posted:If I ever play a game of FCM again, I'm just going to forgo the first turn and say "okay you start with a recruiter" None, other than turn order which going into turn 2 is largely informed by restaurant location and reserve which are the most important opening elements.
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Nov 14, 2019 15:56
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al-azad posted:None, other than turn order which going into turn 2 is largely informed by restaurant location and reserve which are the most important opening elements. Ive seen a lot of discussion on early hiring but not much at all about restaurant placement. I've only played a couple times and its been relatively new groups. How aggressive do folks like to be with their early placements? We typically see in a 4 player game the first player gets boxed in by the next 2 to place then the last person goes further away to try to get their own little corner.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:05
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Everyone needs to keep each other in check pretty much. It doesn't help to kill one player if you just leave things wide open for another, though obviously it's going to depend on specific details like where drinks are, if there's a possible island, etc.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:10
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silvergoose posted:Dunno, I was thinking of the magazines and something else in the hitchhikers guide one! One of the old VGA Sierra games involved a 19th century boat voyage from New York to San Francisco about 1/3 of the way through the game, mostly via exposition. If in the starter area you didn't buy oranges from a completely innocuous fruit stand which simply looks like background art, you will be told that you die of cholera en route with no explanation. If you buy the oranges the exposition, without your input, will say that you eat the oranges and have a nice voyage.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:14
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