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I didnt mind the film, but maybe that's because Nicole Kidman taking me away appeals to me
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Nov 14, 2019 05:30
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VikingofRock posted:Full text here; it's a very short read. I read it tonight after work since I'd never actually read it before. This is quite cool, but one thing about it reminds me of a particular gripe I have about the writing — which is how Lews Therin and other male channelers are always invariably described simply as having "gone insane". Like... there's never any more specifics given, no more descriptive language for it. It's not indicated as schizophrenia or PTSD or bipolar disorder or any of the kinds of things we admittedly have more language for than we did in 1990—in 14 huge books it's never described with any more authorial interest than he went insane. It's just so... matter-of-fact, so glib. "Went insane". Yes I know we do get this whole series-long arc where we're supposed to be getting a highly detailed view of what it's like to "go insane" from Rand's POV, which is fairly indistinguishable from any number of real-world examples of people convinced that "I am awesome and everybody else is stupid", who stomp around like Dunning-Kruger monsters laying waste to everything around them because they can't fathom their own fallibility. That's fine, and I get that. But that's not how the process of "going insane" looks to anybody else in the story. In that linked text it's great that we get some sense of things like the order of battle and the numbers involved over what timespans and so on; but when it comes time for Lews Therin to "go insane" it's just ... like that, boom, insane. No description of how he raved and gibbered incoherently, or of how he suddenly became a messianic cult leader with flaming eyes who rallied people to a doomed cause, or of how he slipped into an alternate persona uncontrollably, or of how he became catatonic until Robin Williams threw a ball at him, or anything. No specifics. Just "went insane  " I mean come on, give me a "he cried out as one fey" if you have to, whatever, just I need SOMEthing other than like everybody has a yellow diamond floating over their head and suddenly this guy and his companions had their diamonds just, like, turn red and that's that.Maybe it's a small thing but it's always grated on me
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Nov 14, 2019 05:59
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You know what, that's a fair criticism that could probably have been covered by a single paragraph in one of the earlier books.
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Nov 14, 2019 06:08
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There was that one dude who regressed to being a baby, and the one who's seeing fades in the shadows
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Nov 14, 2019 06:09
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I always thought that the Dark One putting his taint on the male half of the source snapped everyone crazy basically instantly, so there wasn't a slow build like we see with Rand or the Asha'man.
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Nov 14, 2019 06:13
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Pleads posted:I always thought that the Dark One putting his taint on the male half of the source snapped everyone crazy basically instantly, so there wasn't a slow build like we see with Rand or the Asha'man. Yeah but I want to know what kind of crazy. Like what did he actually do. What was the narrative of him going crazy like? What literally happened? Did he kill everyone around him and feast upon their entrails? Did he set himself on fire? Did he roll around in a pigsty? Nihilarian posted:There was that one dude who regressed to being a baby, and the one who's seeing fades in the shadows This I barely remember, but yeah, stuff like this. I want to know what Lews Therin going insane looked like to other people. I'd have thought it would make some pretty gripping reading. It's not like he can't do detailed narrative after all, this just seems like a really central part of the story that was almost entirely just left to the imagination and short-circuited with some of the most clinical language I can think of.
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Nov 14, 2019 06:19
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I think the examples we get, between the Shadow War and modern events, is pretty descriptive? If nothing else LTT murdering his entire family set the stage fairly well. Beyond that: - The guy who goes insane during the Breaking and incinerates an entire city's worth of Aiel, who are all linked arm in arm and singing to him in an attempt to jog his memory/slow him down so other people can escape. He listens to the last one for an hour and then blows up the city anyway. I think we get a few other reports/dispatches about the threat of Breaking-era male Aes Sedai but they're really scattered about. - an unnamed Asha'man simply began screaming that spiders were crawling under his skin, another who sees Fades in the shadows, etc - various paranoias and mental disturbances It could have been elaborated on for sure but what's told and hinted at is illustrative enough to evoke the horror of the phenomena. Edit: On that note one series that does sell magical power-related psychosis very well is the Broken Earth trilogy, where every magic user has basically suffered immense abuse of some sort, usually at the hands of a person they care about, and that manifests in ways that are natural but also horrifying. There's a scene in book 2 in particular where I had to just put it down and walk away, it was just brutal. Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 06:21
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There is a rumour of some kind of adaptation of the fifth season and I don't know if I'm excited or apprehensive, that series is heavy.
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Nov 14, 2019 06:31
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I'm ok with not knowing the details of the insanity tbh. There were enough hints given. And I sort of got the impression that the lightning's Rand used in TSR were what killed LTT's family
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Nov 14, 2019 08:44
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Data Graham posted:Yeah but I want to know what kind of crazy. Like what did he actually do. What was the narrative of him going crazy like? What literally happened? Did he kill everyone around him and feast upon their entrails? Did he set himself on fire? Did he roll around in a pigsty? He went home and killed all of his family and friends. This is why he is known as the Kinslayer. The aftermath of this is covered in the prologue to the first book, where you see Lews Therin stepping over the corpse of his wife as he calls her name and asks where she is. How much more do you need?
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Nov 14, 2019 09:07
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silvergoose posted:There is a rumour of some kind of adaptation of the fifth season and I don't know if I'm excited or apprehensive, that series is heavy. Oh god no, first we have Jordan which is great as a YA introduction to fantasy (hey, are there rumours of a Belgariad TV series???) But Fifth Season was a really hard slog of a series that would make maybe one episode per book.
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Nov 14, 2019 11:05
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It’s actually pretty clear what the effects of the madness are. Intense paranoia, hearing voices, hallucinations, delusions, irrational behaviour, etc. it’s basically a descent into Paranoid Schizophrenia. Then in the late stages your body starts physically rotting away.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:38
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I'm not sure how well the details of just how nuts Llews Therin went would have survived over three thousand years of chaos and upheaval. Usually my question is "why don't they ask one of the captured Forsaken?" but in their case they got sealed in the Bore before Therin went bonkers and wouldn't have been there to see it. I'm still amazed that they didn't try and pump Moghedien or Semirhage for information about the Age of Legends. Gods, the Brown Ajah should have been all over that poo poo.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:49
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Fair enough, I won't make a thing out of it. Just the wording always seemed so repetitive and disinterested whenever it came up, for something I'd have thought would have been so feared and cast into memory that it might have been given a mythic name and ritualistic description like so many other things.
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Nov 14, 2019 13:14
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The one thing I dislike the most in these books is how much of a prude everyone is. I don’t need sex and rape every other chapter like GRRM. But non stop ewww cleavage is tiring.
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Nov 14, 2019 13:23
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Invalid Validation posted:The one thing I dislike the most in these books is how much of a prude everyone is. I don’t need sex and rape every other chapter like GRRM. But non stop ewww cleavage is tiring. But boobs are awesome??? So are butts? I don't understand your point. Characters go "what a behind" pretty often...
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Nov 14, 2019 13:50
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Though that might mostly be tylin and birgitte
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Nov 14, 2019 13:51
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Invalid Validation posted:The one thing I dislike the most in these books is how much of a prude everyone is. I don’t need sex and rape every other chapter like GRRM. But non stop ewww cleavage is tiring. In one of the links about the series' background, it was explained that originally the series had more adult characters and sex but that it was self-censored to make the series more kid friendly. It was a marketing move.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:52
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silvergoose posted:But boobs are awesome??? Yeah you didn't, he was complaining about the puritanical reactions, not about boobs' existence.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:Yeah you didn't, he was complaining about the puritanical reactions, not about boobs' existence. But a bunch of people are like whatever mixed baths, that butt is great, those legs, etc I dunno.
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Nov 14, 2019 14:57
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Data Graham posted:Yeah but I want to know what kind of crazy. Like what did he actually do. What was the narrative of him going crazy like? What literally happened? Did he kill everyone around him and feast upon their entrails? Did he set himself on fire? Did he roll around in a pigsty? The opening of EotW has LTT completely bugnuts talking to a once close friend now enemy while standing over the dead body of his wife oblivious. He keeps repeating she "must be here somewhere". He cries out ~"Ilyena my love?! We Have Guests!". Dead Ilyena isn't moved, or even noticed by LTT until healed. The series literally cold opens on insane Lews Therin, and in the process he is "healed" by Shai'Tan's power as channeled by Ishmael. We then see him flee and form dragonmount as he remembers murdering his family. Arguably LTT went insane -twice- in the age of legends. Once when the dark one struck back, once again when his insanity was temporarily lifted by Ishmael. It is entirely gripping, and one of the most analyzed prologues in fiction precisely because it does such a magnificent job of grabbing reader attention. I was going to quote it here but it's too much. Go reread it. Anias fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 15:18
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I just did actually and yeah paying close attention to all of it, it's super good and ought to be the intro to the show too.
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Nov 14, 2019 15:22
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Anias posted:one of the most analyzed prologues in fiction
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Nov 14, 2019 15:41
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silvergoose posted:But a bunch of people are like whatever mixed baths, that butt is great, those legs, etc All the main characters spend at least once every chapter talking about how low cut a dress is and will blush profusely over a little side boob. I get it, but they do it A LOT.
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Nov 14, 2019 15:54
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https://www.tor.com/2009/01/20/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-eye-of-the-world-part-1/ It's been torn apart by a lot of different editors/authors trying to figure out why it works so well. I linked tor.com's stuff by Leigh Butler above but she's hardly alone. I suppose I could amend it to "modern publishing" if you prefer. I'm not trying to argue that it's taught in schools, I'm saying that actual writers/editors/publishers have been tearing that particular prologue apart for nearly 30 years. If you talk with a recently established author of epic fantasy, they have almost certainly looked at EotW, much like older authors have almost certainly looked at Tolkien.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:17
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I'm surprised she made it through the prologue without complaining about sexism.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:22
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Invalid Validation posted:All the main characters spend at least once every chapter talking about how low cut a dress is and will blush profusely over a little side boob. I get it, but they do it A LOT. Andor is relatively conservative (although less so that Cairhein or Amadicia.) Almost all of our PoV characters are therefore from relatively conservative parts of Randland. They are remarking on the customs of the less conservative places.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:29
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Anias posted:The opening of EotW has LTT completely bugnuts talking to a once close friend now enemy while standing over the dead body of his wife oblivious. He keeps repeating she "must be here somewhere". He cries out ~"Ilyena my love?! We Have Guests!". Dead Ilyena isn't moved, or even noticed by LTT until healed. Anias posted:https://www.tor.com/2009/01/20/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-eye-of-the-world-part-1/ Saying "many recently published fantasy authors have read EotW" might be true, but saying that it's "one of the most analyzed prologues in fiction" is bad joke.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:32
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Yeah a lot of the more grimdark fantasy of the recent era was influenced in tone if not in substance by that prologue. It's up there as far as essential readings in SFF, I've seen it used in more than a few writing workshops. I find myself wondering who they are going to cast as Bashere, especially if S2 has already been greenlit. I think Navid Negahban would be great - he can be jovial, he can be serious, dude can grow a killer stache, and isn't Saldaea one of the places in the books with the vaguely Middle Eastern aesthetic/culture?
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Nov 14, 2019 16:38
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Mat Cauthon posted:Yeah a lot of the more grimdark fantasy of the recent era was influenced in tone if not in substance by that prologue. It's up there as far as essential readings in SFF, I've seen it used in more than a few writing workshops. They're more steppe raiders, always on horses and all that.
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Nov 14, 2019 16:43
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I think this is answered somewhere in the books, but I forget: how is Ishamael there to taunt LTT in the first place? At that point, isn't he sealed in the bore? I know he gets "spun out" every thousand years or so; did he get sealed in and then immediately spun out?
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Nov 14, 2019 17:56
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VikingofRock posted:I think this is answered somewhere in the books, but I forget: how is Ishamael there to taunt LTT in the first place? At that point, isn't he sealed in the bore? I know he gets "spun out" every thousand years or so; did he get sealed in and then immediately spun out? That's basically it. He's only partially sealed and seems to have been around first during the breaking and then during the Trollics Wars, Hawkwing's era, and then finally the start of the series.
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Nov 14, 2019 18:01
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Mat Cauthon posted:Yeah a lot of the more grimdark fantasy of the recent era was influenced in tone if not in substance by that prologue. It's up there as far as essential readings in SFF, I've seen it used in more than a few writing workshops. "Grimdark" fantasy wasn't invented by Jordan, but was instead already common when he started to write EotW.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:49
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I didn't say that he invented it, only that the EotW prologue (and the themes of the series generally) influenced subsequent generations of dark/tragic fantasy and I've seen it used as a reference in writing workshops. Better?
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Nov 14, 2019 20:17
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The prologue works really well for a lot of reasons. It's very high concept, high fantasy, high magic, and throws the central hook of the series at you right away in a really dramatic fashion. It's high drama. It has lots of subtle touches and ambiguities that aren't answered for books and books and books (do we ever find out what or who the nine rods of Dominion are?). It lets you know right from the start that there is more going on here than just another farmboy fantasy. Then the next chapter is farmboy fantasy and a three thousand year timeskip that isn't explained for hundreds of pages. It gives the reader immediate whiplash and makes them read to find out how the gently caress that connects with that.
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Nov 14, 2019 21:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The prologue works really well for a lot of reasons. It's very high concept, high fantasy, high magic, and throws the central hook of the series at you right away in a really dramatic fashion. It's high drama. It has lots of subtle touches and ambiguities that aren't answered for books and books and books (do we ever find out what or who the nine rods of Dominion are?). It lets you know right from the start that there is more going on here than just another farmboy fantasy. They seem to have been regional governors: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Rods_of_Dominion
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Nov 14, 2019 21:18
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ChubbyChecker posted:They seem to have been regional governors: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Rods_of_Dominion Lews Therin Telamon, possibly posted:Rodney, Roderick, Rodanthe, Rodeo, Rodealia, Rodr'od, Roddi, Rodwig, annnnd Rodenda, great, everyone's here, glad you got my summons, let's get this meeting started!
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Nov 14, 2019 22:17
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Lord Awkward posted:
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Nov 14, 2019 22:48
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lol
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Nov 14, 2019 22:57
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I wanted a M-Rod-N name, personally.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:13
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