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professor metis posted:Silver Snow should have a good cast because it has the Black Eagles but they don't do enough with them in that route. SS would be better if Rhea was the leader imo. Though you'd probably need to change the end boss of that route (which would be a good thing anyway since the Deer final boss would fit SS better).
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Nov 14, 2019 21:47
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KittyEmpress posted:I've only watched VW cutscenes online, but I played Silver Snow and I liked it more, because it really drives in how personally betrayed most of the black eagles felt. It turns it into this sad personal conflict between former friends and classmates. itd be easier to buy them as betrayed if they didnt just kinda go along with edelgard normally
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Nov 14, 2019 21:50
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Yeah, I mean it's really hard for me to read the CF/SS split as more you betraying Edelgard than the other way around. Like I know she tries to kill you, but that was them lazily reusing a mission and her in the mission being like "I don't want to hurt you guys, don't fight us and it's cool." If she or maybe the assassin dude, had been all gungho about no witnesses it could've felt like a betrayal. Or you know if they had established Rhea/the Church as things worth protecting instead of the mission being about Rhea hoping that by sitting on the holy relics you'd get possessed and killed by her mom. I dunno, I know I'm too invested in El's side but they really could've done a lot more to make you feel justified picking the Church.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:00
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The real awkward thing about Silver Snow is the Black Eagle students sticking with you for no real reason. There's little reason for most of them to show up at the monastery post-time skip and then become church soldiers. Even their supports act like they are still with Edelgard. The route would have been better if you lost of most of the Black Eagle students and they doubled down on making the route about the actual church characters.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:22
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Basileus777 posted:The real awkward thing about Silver Snow is the Black Eagle students sticking with you for no real reason. There's little reason for most of them to show up at the monastery post-time skip and then become church soldiers. Even their supports act like they are still with Edelgard. The route would have been better if you lost of most of the Black Eagle students and they doubled down on making the route about the actual church characters. That would've been far more interesting and fed the whole tragedy the game is supposed to make you feel! Like on your first playthrough if you kill a student not in your house, it's sad but you didn't really spend time with that character, watch them grow, and then lose them. Would've made the Church route a lot more resonant if you did invest all this time into them and then lost them, and let them really develop the Knights more.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:29
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Also even if they didnt wanna do that they could let you do more traditional fire emblem recruitment to get your drat kids back
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Nov 14, 2019 22:36
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I like that Edelgard actually shows up to the reunion in Silver Snow only to wind up in a sword fight with Byleth, who then promptly runs into Seteth moments later and neglects to tell anyone that Edelgard was hanging out down the hall and probably hasn't wandered too far. Then somebody announces that the Empire has, somehow, discovered church activity in the monastery and is about to attack.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:41
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Eimi posted:The best support silliness to me is Leonie's B support locked behind Jeralt's death. Really sells that she's a bit of a bitch. Andrast posted:It's almost like that happening might trigger an emotional response or something That makes me think maybe her B support should've been locked until the month after that event. As it stands, what generally happens is a player has enough support points for the B support so that they can see it immediately after Jeralt dies, and boy does that support feel like whiplash in the immediate aftermath, especially given how crushed Leonie is when you see her around the monastery in that month. But if they'd locked it until a month later, I think it'd make a lot of sense--she tries to connect with Byleth and reminisce about Jeralt, but her old resentments bubble up anyway, magnified by her continuing grief.
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Nov 14, 2019 22:44
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Man, finishing chapter 12 with no green unit deaths makes you feel like a total badass. I tried doing it back on my first run (CF) but had to settle for just keeping the named units alive.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:30
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Basileus777 posted:The real awkward thing about Silver Snow is the Black Eagle students sticking with you for no real reason. There's plenty of reason for them sticking with Byleth (specifically Byleth) and not Edelgard. Edelgard is Queen of Not Telling People Anything. The moment she invades the tombs, her classmates are all in constant states of 'WTF?' since her deciding to kick off a war and invade a tomb came out of nowhere. Edelgard doesn't give anyone time to really think about anything and kicks people out the door if she even thinks they might go against her. One of Ferd's early lines in SS is that he basically lived as a fugitive up until the first timeskip mission. Some BE characters (Lindhart) have little to no reason, but Ferdinand, Dorothea, Bernie, Petra, and Caspar have some reason. Especially since she tells none of them what's coming. What they should've done is have some BE members disappear and fight against Team Byleth, like Ashe and Lorenz do if you recruit them outside of their main houses.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:45
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Airspace posted:There's plenty of reason for them sticking with Byleth (specifically Byleth) and not Edelgard. then why are they all cool with her on AM and VW. it's because protagonist-kun is super special
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Nov 14, 2019 23:52
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IMO this game shouldn't have had the deer or church routes. but it honestly feels like those two were the first developed and the edelgard route was slapped together at the last minute.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:59
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like, "Edelgard's route is the one we care the most about and everyone will choose, so let's make sure the other ones are good before we work on hers." However long of dev time they had later, "What do you mean we're almost out of time/funds!?"
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Nov 15, 2019 00:00
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I feel like Azure Moon had the most time put in to it, then Silver Snow and Verdant Wind were developed as offshoots of that, and then they came to Crimson Flower and had to develop it with very different plot and character circumstances and just ran out of time. Which is a big shame, because to me it has the most interesting ideas.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:20
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Someone mentioned something similar before, but I think it would have been better if there was no Church route, and Claude's route had you pick between siding with Edelgard or Dimitri. I really like the Golden Deer crew but don't care much about that route's story. Claude's ending stuff would also make more sense in that context.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:21
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Junpei Hyde posted:then why are they all cool with her I'm... not debating that part? I'm debating the 'no reason to go against Edelgard' part. They have good reasons to work with her, they also have good reason to stand against her if they do.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:28
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Endorph posted:IMO this game shouldn't have had the deer or church routes. but it honestly feels like those two were the first developed and the edelgard route was slapped together at the last minute. it should have had a deer route but it should have been a radically different one from what we got
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Nov 15, 2019 00:34
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Airspace posted:There's plenty of reason for them sticking with Byleth (specifically Byleth) and not Edelgard. Dorothea, Bernie, and Caspar are the main ones who have no reason to join the church. Ferdinand and Petra can be contrived to join, though their character arcs just work a lot better when siding with Edelgard. Ferdinand's supports don't even make any sense on other routes. And all of these characters fade to the background on Silver Snow anyway, the route doesn't care about them. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 00:34
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The Deer should have just been merged into the other two countries. Only Hilda and Claude are inartistically tied to the concept of the Alliance. Everyone else is so easy to fit into one of the other two it wouldn't surprise me is some of them actually were originally from another house and got shuffled around. Like Marianne is basically another "The Kingdom's Crest obsession has ruined my life" character, and Lysithea's entire backstory is so tied to Imperial goings-on I legit once forgot she was in the Deer.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:45
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Considering how you can recruit her in act 2 as BE she might as well be.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:48
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galagazombie posted:The Deer should have just been merged into the other two countries. Only Hilda and Claude are inartistically tied to the concept of the Alliance. Everyone else is so easy to fit into one of the other two it wouldn't surprise me is some of them actually were originally from another house and got shuffled around. Like Marianne is basically another "The Kingdom's Crest obsession has ruined my life" character, and Lysithea's entire backstory is so tied to Imperial goings-on I legit once forgot she was in the Deer. Lorenz is tied up in it too, but that's just three characters. Raph and Ignatz have no ties to much of anything and Leonie's deal has nothing to do with where she lived.
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Nov 15, 2019 00:52
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galagazombie posted:The Deer should have just been merged into the other two countries. If they had a route split in Deer (between El and Dimitri), on the other two routes they could have Claude side with your opponent. This would give you a reason to fight the Deer in Azure Moon. The Gronder Field part 2 battle was dumb!
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Nov 15, 2019 00:55
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I feel like the problem with all the "just get rid of the Deer route" takes is that unless you're also willing to rewrite the worldbuilding enough that you can eliminate the Alliance as an entity entirely, there would absolutely be a bunch of players wondering why there isn't an option to play as them. And at that point, you might as well just rewrite the Deer route to not be irrelevant instead.
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Nov 15, 2019 01:07
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Eimi posted:I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like, "Edelgard's route is the one we care the most about and everyone will choose, so let's make sure the other ones are good before we work on hers." However long of dev time they had later, "What do you mean we're almost out of time/funds!?" I mean this is just not how development works. You always prioritize the selling point first, it makes zero sense to do it the other way round. I can buy it if bits of Edelgard's story got chopped on the editing floor and they didn't have time to write a proper replacement for it, or if they had more unique maps planned that didn't end up finished by the level designers and they had to cut the story along with it. Even the theory that Edelgard's route as a whole was a later addition is more plausible (even if I don't think that's the case.) But leaving her route's development to the last when it's supposedly meant to be their "main" route just... can't have been a deliberate decision, or if it is, it would've been an awfully baffling one. blizzardvizard fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 01:28
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galagazombie posted:The Deer should have just been merged into the other two countries. Only Hilda and Claude are inartistically tied to the concept of the Alliance. Everyone else is so easy to fit into one of the other two it wouldn't surprise me is some of them actually were originally from another house and got shuffled around. Like Marianne is basically another "The Kingdom's Crest obsession has ruined my life" character, and Lysithea's entire backstory is so tied to Imperial goings-on I legit once forgot she was in the Deer. I'd argue that's true about basically everyone and part of the reason you can recruit almost everyone cross house, with each character having a justification blurb.
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Nov 15, 2019 01:54
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Every character has a reasonable reason to join every other route. Some of them are better than others, but there aren't any real combos where I was confused why someone joined besides 'oh Byleth is here'.
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Nov 15, 2019 01:57
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Gamerofthegame posted:I'd argue that's true about basically everyone and part of the reason you can recruit almost everyone cross house, with each character having a justification blurb. Most of the Blue Lion and Black Eagle students are strongly tied to their home countries and fellow students in a way that doesn't really apply to the Golden Deer. Sure you can invent contrivances for why they'd leave if we're talking about recruitment, but that wasn't the topic. Adrestia and Faerghus aren't third wheels in the plot of the game like Leicester anyway, there's no way to excise them. Basileus777 fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 02:13
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Gamerofthegame posted:I'd argue that's true about basically everyone and part of the reason you can recruit almost everyone cross house, with each character having a justification blurb. But for the Adrestian/Faergus crew those are usually framed as an explicit rejection/rebellion of their original country and it's current policies. With the Alliance kids it's almost always personal. Raphael even says right before the timeskip something to the effect of "I may technically live in Alliance territory but that has nothing to do with my backstory."
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Nov 15, 2019 03:31
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Claude has enough charisma as a character that he would be sorely missed if excised entirely. I would personally implement any removal of Versant Wind as more of a merging with Silver Snow, having the Alliance-linked kids step up to bat if you tell El to gently caress off. Obviously this would require a lot of rewriting but any fix to how Silver Snow and Verdant Wind are extraneous-feeling would need it anyway.
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Nov 15, 2019 04:07
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Amppelix posted:That would've just been really boring woulda been rad. Like Clockwork posted:Claude has enough charisma as a character that he would be sorely missed if excised entirely. I would personally implement any removal of Versant Wind as more of a merging with Silver Snow, having the Alliance-linked kids step up to bat if you tell El to gently caress off. Obviously this would require a lot of rewriting but any fix to how Silver Snow and Verdant Wind are extraneous-feeling would need it anyway. I repeat: basically any deer would have been a better main character than claude, even if he's a fine supporting one. Blaziken386 posted:honestly the worst part about dimitri's plot is that everyone's all like "oh no, we need to restore dimitri to the throne to bring order to fodlan!!" while he's still a crazy torturer hobo Honestly the only person I could really get behind in Dimitri's route was Felix and most of the Eagles/Deer, like Hilda being all "yeah dimitri's nutso but we don't have much choice here." Eimi posted:I dunno, I know I'm too invested in El's side but they really could've done a lot more to make you feel justified picking the Church. You really are. I like Edelgard a lot too but she tries to kill you, and as far as you are aware, is directly involved with the person who killed your dad, AKA the one person Byleth has had even the slightest attachment for 21 years or so. Endorph posted:IMO this game shouldn't have had the deer or church routes. but it honestly feels like those two were the first developed and the edelgard route was slapped together at the last minute. Definitely. The game would have been way better off with more time to develop the Lion and Eagle routes. They could split the difference of plot stuff in the Deer route. If they had to include the deer route just throw in more of the Almyrans with them or something so they'd be more than a speedbump where you pick up a bow. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 04:51
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Cuntellectual posted:You really are. I like Edelgard a lot too but she tries to kill you, Eh, in the Eagles route she pretty explicitly tells you she's just here for the rocks and to just hang around till she's finished. It's only really the game forcing you (because they couldn't shorten the route anymore and needed to reuse the level) to attack her that makes the situation violent. That whole level really should have had the choice to help/oppose Edelgard before the map and have a reverse version like the Monastery attack did where you grab crest stones and fight church soldiers.
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Nov 15, 2019 06:03
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Cuntellectual posted:I repeat: basically any deer would have been a better main character than claude, even if he's a fine supporting one. this is incorrect. actually, claude owns. although hilda being the lead would be pretty funny
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Nov 15, 2019 06:59
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Gamerofthegame posted:this is incorrect. actually, claude owns.
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Nov 15, 2019 07:03
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galagazombie posted:Eh, in the Eagles route she pretty explicitly tells you she's just here for the rocks and to just hang around till she's finished. It's only really the game forcing you (because they couldn't shorten the route anymore and needed to reuse the level) to attack her that makes the situation violent. That whole level really should have had the choice to help/oppose Edelgard before the map and have a reverse version like the Monastery attack did where you grab crest stones and fight church soldiers. There's something to be said about the other named character she brings along that really, really wants to kill you. I agree with your last sentence, though.
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Nov 15, 2019 07:05
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galagazombie posted:Eh, in the Eagles route she pretty explicitly tells you she's just here for the rocks and to just hang around till she's finished. It's only really the game forcing you (because they couldn't shorten the route anymore and needed to reuse the level) to attack her that makes the situation violent. That whole level really should have had the choice to help/oppose Edelgard before the map and have a reverse version like the Monastery attack did where you grab crest stones and fight church soldiers. I dunno about you, but I'd have serious reservations about helping my friend steal poo poo for no discernible reason, especially when they bring a poo poo ton of armed people to help them do it. Yeah, the church is sketch as gently caress, but some people must have some interesting lives where Edelgard doesn't come across as incredibly suspicious there.
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Nov 15, 2019 08:21
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Hellioning posted:I dunno about you, but I'd have serious reservations about helping my friend steal poo poo for no discernible reason, especially when they bring a poo poo ton of armed people to help them do it. Well the whole situation on that route is a little contrived because 99% of peoples response would be some variant of asking what the hell is going on and then maybe deciding who to start stabbing if any. As is it's some weird sequence of events where it goes: Try to stab Edelgard with no clarification because Rhea told you to> Decide to not stab Edelgard> Finally ask what the hell is going on.
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Nov 15, 2019 08:42
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Hellioning posted:I dunno about you, but I'd have serious reservations about helping my friend steal poo poo for no discernible reason, especially when they bring a poo poo ton of armed people to help them do it. stealing is cool galagazombie posted:Well the whole situation on that route is a little contrived because 99% of peoples response would be some variant of asking what the hell is going on and then maybe deciding who to start stabbing if any. As is it's some weird sequence of events where it goes: Try to stab Edelgard with no clarification because Rhea told you to> Decide to not stab Edelgard> Finally ask what the hell is going on. Yeah it's kind of dumb
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Nov 15, 2019 08:42
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Hellioning posted:I dunno about you, but I'd have serious reservations about helping my friend steal poo poo for no discernible reason, especially when they bring a poo poo ton of armed people to help them do it.
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Nov 15, 2019 08:58
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Hellioning posted:I dunno about you, but I'd have serious reservations about helping my friend steal poo poo for no discernible reason, especially when they bring a poo poo ton of armed people to help them do it. I mean, I basically already had tried to steal the Lance of Ruin away from Rhea, and I wouldn't exactly call "depriving the church of what-look-to-be-weapons that they seem to be keeping in a hidden basement" to be "no discernible reason", especially after Rhea's talk about Miklan's transformation where she was all "we're going to cover this up because other people knowing would be bad for the church".
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Nov 15, 2019 09:10
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Shinji117 posted:I mean, I basically already had tried to steal the Lance of Ruin away from Rhea, and I wouldn't exactly call "depriving the church of what-look-to-be-weapons that they seem to be keeping in a hidden basement" to be "no discernible reason", especially after Rhea's talk about Miklan's transformation where she was all "we're going to cover this up because other people knowing would be bad for the church". She also tells you the sword of the creator is safe, please ignore that Marius fellow. Nothing to see here. But then there's also lindhart and catherine's support wherein people turning into monsters seems to be publicly available knowledge?
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Nov 15, 2019 13:38
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