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I think if the series had it as "Letters to Beth" it'd be more interesting. Making it towards Bruce when he's only ever been mentioned is sorta hollow.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:53
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Xelkelvos posted:I think if the series had it as "Letters to Beth" it'd be more interesting. Making it towards Bruce when he's only ever been mentioned is sorta hollow. They're doing what Supergirl did in season 1 on CBS. Kara would monologue her insecurities to an absent Clark in order to make sure the point of the show was getting across to all the wizened boomers who comprised CBS's audience and were just waiting for the show to get over so they could get back to CSINCIS: New Los Vegas: Cyber. And it suddenly stopped when Tyler Hoechlin whipped off his glasses and whisked us all away with his Fun Superman.
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Nov 12, 2019 23:58
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bentacos posted:The Trivia section of that article linked says that it's implied that she's attracted to Kate, so they most definitely will. That's good, but at the same time I was wondering how the public reaction to this show is and realized that if I looked there would be probably as many people going "What, even BATMAN can't be a man anymore?" as going "Omg Lesbians! best show ever!". The A Plot in this episode is what this show should be. Some villain of the week that adds to a bigger picture of Gotham's rottenness. It would be great to see Batwoman putting together a case against the leaders of Gotham, that eventually snowballs into some actual change, and probably destroys the Crows at the same time. The murder of Lucius Fox should be a major on going investigation, but nope. IT'S ABOUT FAMILY. Alice should have been "killed" off after a 3 episode arc at the beginning, then have her reappear later. She should not be the soul focus of the series.
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Nov 13, 2019 05:47
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twistedmentat posted:That's good, but at the same time I was wondering how the public reaction to this show is and realized that if I looked there would be probably as many people going "What, even BATMAN can't be a man anymore?" as going "Omg Lesbians! best show ever!". It’s probably more skewed towards the former given how vocal and mobile that type person tends to be. The best example of this is how there’s 40 or so professional reviews of the show on Rotten Tomatoes going “Eh, it’s pretty good. It’s kinda rocky but it has a lot of potential.” Vs. The 7,000 1-star audience reviews of people screaming “ARHG! WORST SHOW EVER IN THE HISTORY OF EVERYTHING! SJWS RUINED MY BATMAN! CANCEL IT NOW! IT BURNS WHEN I PEE!” I somehow doubt that that’s 7,000+ real individual people saying that though. You also have to swim through 50 identical very mad men screaming in video format about how Batwoman destroyed comics forever this week with her dreaded second X chromosome from their bedrooms filled to the brim with nerd merchandise before you get to any promo clips or highlights in case you missed something and want to rewatch it. It’s been great for calibrating my YouTube channel blocker add on though. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Nov 13, 2019 |
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Nov 13, 2019 06:10
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nine-gear crow posted:It’s probably more skewed towards the former given how vocal and mobile that type person tends to be. The best example of this is how there’s 40 or so professional reviews of the show on Rotten Tomatoes going “Eh, it’s pretty good. It’s kinda rocky but it has a lot of potential.” Vs. The 7,000 1-star audience reviews of people screaming “ARHG! WORST SHOW EVER IN THE HISTORY OF EVERYTHING! SJWS RUINED MY BATMAN! CANCEL IT NOW! IT BURNS WHEN I PEE!” True, but i have seen a lot of people online that just lose their poo poo in excitement over any LGQBT+ representation, which is good, because there drat wellbetter be more. But that being said, they will uncritically love anything with that in it, no matter the quality of the show. Kind of like those that freaked out about Overwatch 2's trailer having some kind of thing between Brigette and Tracer, and everyone else going "uh Blizzard is a poo poo company for treating its players badly because some Autocratic Country that can't stand criticism told them to, no amount of lesbian ships are going to erase their real world actions". I know at least 3 women who are like this too. One said in season 1 Gotham was legit best show because it had Lesbians in it.
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Nov 13, 2019 08:41
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Batwoman is a bad show because they cast a crappy actress who isn’t a badass to play a badass. Now, she can learn (Laurel in arrow did) but arrow only made that mistake with a supporting character. The star of the show is horrible and if they don’t fix it soon, the show won’t last. I love batworld, but I’m probably going to stop watching after Crisis If it doesn’t improve.
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Nov 13, 2019 13:37
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I dunno, I feel like Amell and Lotz in particular had rough starts, acting-wise, but got by on their natural charisma and the fact that they were obviously super duper enthusiastic about what they were doing and having a total blast doing it. Rose, on the other hand, comes off as pretty listless by comparison. She might be trying to play cool and aloof, but it just seems like she’s bored and apathetic most of the time.
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Nov 13, 2019 14:35
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Batwoman isn't a badass because she isn't being written as a badass. The actress can only do what's in the script and what the choreographers tell her to do. I don't see any particular signs based on non action sequences that she's a bad actor. The writers decided to have Batwoman trivially overpowered by a random chubby middle aged dude; not Ruby Rose. Now maybe they're deliberately trying to tell the story of a woman who's in way over her head and isn't particularly good at being a superhero; that concept even has potential; but this writing team isn't skilled enough to pull it off.
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Nov 13, 2019 14:35
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The Lord Bude posted:Now maybe they're deliberately trying to tell the story of a woman who's in way over her head and isn't particularly good at being a superhero; that concept even has potential; but this writing team isn't skilled enough to pull it off. That could even work if they acknowledged it and made it a story about her learning to put her training into practice or overcome her self-doubt or whatever, but she seems to think she's doing as well as she expects to. Hopefully all this just means that this show is going to follow the Legends model (poo poo first season, great after that) rather than the Flash model (great first season, poo poo forever after).
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Nov 13, 2019 14:46
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What really bums me out about this show is how good the comic is by comparison: it had wild, surreal art, Alice came off as genuinely dangerous and crazy, Kate's life seemed busy and chaotic and was constantly spinning out of control, and she was also working as a vigilante before she put on the cape, which made a lot more sense.
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Nov 13, 2019 16:50
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Tiggum posted:And if that is their intent, then why did they start by showing her getting this elite super-warrior training? We've been told that she couldn't complete the normal training due to outside forces so she went out and found the best teachers to give her the best training, essentially becoming Batman by accident - but then when she tries to put it into practice she just can't? I don't actually think that was the intent, I think the writing is just bad. Though to be fair, We didn't see that much training. Only that one swimming lesson. Arrow by comparison spent 5 years showing us how Oliver got to be the person he was in episode 1.
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Nov 13, 2019 17:11
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vseslav.botkin posted:What really bums me out about this show is how good the comic is by comparison: it had wild, surreal art, Alice came off as genuinely dangerous and crazy, Kate's life seemed busy and chaotic and was constantly spinning out of control, and she was also working as a vigilante before she put on the cape, which made a lot more sense. Even the villain made more sense in the comic where Alice had an actual criminal organization backing her up and she was leading it because she was a sort of "chosen one." Kate's civilian life is portrayed like Mary's is in the series where she's basically a rich dilettante that goes to clubs and parties as befitting someone of her status and wealth.
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Nov 13, 2019 17:18
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I can't agree that the writing is just bad because step-sister is wonderfully written.
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Nov 13, 2019 17:19
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Ubik_Lives posted:Her resources seem to fluctuate based on how the audience is supposed to perceive her. At the start, she's got a full gang that can outfight the Crows, because she's supposed to be seen as a full on super villain. As her motivations become more personal, her gang has all but vanished, leaving just her and Mouse. Yeah it's bothering me how inconsistent this is. It's been six episodes and I have a strange feeling of a rushed pacing, underdevelopment, and a big ratio of plot holes for plot exposition which shouldn't exist considering any "plot hole" at this point should be perceived as a mystery to be solved. Also I was rewatching John Wick 2 and it also bothers me how somehow Ruby Rose is somehow less expressive here than there. She's suffering from the Oliver Queen syndrome where the character is just standing still looking at the horizon and delivering flat lines. The great thing about a character like Sara Lance is that whenever she has to move the plot forward there's the jovial attitude that she's like a babysitter taking care of the time idiots, and she's still prone to do crazy poo poo herself (being a wildcard). And yes, I understand plenty of people are not Ruby Rose fans but I still maintain she's being underused. Batwoman is written like she has to fit an existing mold from other CW shows but the character doesn't really exist and hasn't been given time to exist. She's hellbent in not living a normal life, while her vigilante life is moved by Bruce's absence. Phylodox posted:I dunno, I feel like Amell and Lotz in particular had rough starts, acting-wise, but got by on their natural charisma and the fact that they were obviously super duper enthusiastic about what they were doing and having a total blast doing it. Rose, on the other hand, comes off as pretty listless by comparison. She might be trying to play cool and aloof, but it just seems like she’s bored and apathetic most of the time. That's because her character isn't doing anything in-character. Like, pretend you're Kate and you're about to method act. What exactly are your motivations? Why? Are you saving Gotham because of: A) A strong sense of justice B) Daddy issues C) You feel obligated because you wore the bat suit once and now you restored people's hopes when in truth you're actually worried about your sister. Are you more interested in: A) Living your normal life B) Living the vigilante life C) Balancing both in a way that's healthy How do you react to your sister who has thus far shown to be crazy, have a criminal mastermind and has a fair amount of murders under her belt? How do you feel about the justice system? A) You trust it and believe that by putting your trust into it you can make Gotham better B) You mistrust it and want to do justice with your own hands Like, consider the exchange in the last episode "about how the bad guy has a point". Why would Kate talk about the system? The story starts with her losing the woman she loves to homophobia; Her father himself leaving the army to create a private organization; That organization, itself, becoming corrupt. Is Kate, fundamentally, against any sort of killing? With Batman, this is something that is written as a core of his character (yes, I know some writers didn't/don't do that). When that is core to his character, the story usually revolves around it in some way shape or form, sometimes to ridiculous extents: Batman shows horror when Superman kills an Alien invasion; Batman shows horror when Superman kills the Joker; Batman shows regret for not killing the Joker years ago. Is Kate gonna do her best to prevent the police from killing criminals or look shocked at it? Not really. I have no idea how the comic that people are referencing go, but as far as the show is concerned, Ruby is essentially written into a character that has no well-defined personality. Why is Luke calling her to warn her about things he's individually researching? Doesn't Luke have a life and a job? What did Kate expect to accomplish by asking her date to go to a crime site? Like, think about it. You're endangering her life, you're almost guaranteeing that you'll have to dump her sometime in the night to do heroics, you also have less time to do investigative work against a serious threat because instead of observing poo poo in the shadows you're trying to engage in a social activity with someone. When this plot is used by people who want to infiltrate a place and investigate like a casual observer, it never is with a random civilian they care about. Instead, the plot is there simply because we need the format of "Hero tries to have a normal life, 1 episode later she finds out... that she can't." Like, it's a lovely format but I get that in a CW show we're gonna get it: Did it really have to be written so poorly? Elentor fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Nov 14, 2019 |
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Nov 14, 2019 04:47
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I thought Lucas Fox's job was to tend to Bruce Wayne's affairs, like literally look after his stuff in Gotham, INCLUDING the Batman stuff, isn't it?
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Nov 14, 2019 05:25
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Vietnamwees posted:I thought Lucas Fox's job was to tend to Bruce Wayne's affairs, like literally look after his stuff in Gotham, INCLUDING the Batman stuff, isn't it? Yeah but he doesn't really "do" Batman stuff - in the first episode he modifies the suit and gives Kate the gadgets. In the second episode he acts surprised when the computers beep and act super scared when they turn on. He presses Esc with a big zoom on the Esc key in an attempt to stop, and then everything turns on and he says "I did not mean to -" so I think it's safe to assume that whatever his work was it did not involve sitting on the Batcave using Batman's network to do Batman's work.
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Nov 14, 2019 05:39
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Elentor posted:Yeah but he doesn't really "do" Batman stuff - in the first episode he modifies the suit and gives Kate the gadgets. In the second episode he acts surprised when the computers beep and act super scared when they turn on. He presses Esc with a big zoom on the Esc key in an attempt to stop, and then everything turns on and he says "I did not mean to -" so I think it's safe to assume that whatever his work was it did not involve sitting on the Batcave using Batman's network to do Batman's work. Yeah he seems like he's learning how to do half this stuff alongside Kate. Like, he's familiar with all the tech because his dad built it and it fell to him to maintain it after Lucius died, but actually using it is another matter entirely. His skills doing other stuff seem to be helping him across the gap more often than not though. I just love the sassy back and forth between him and Kate. They're a good double act. Especially when Kate fucks something up and Luke pieces together that she cocked up, like the Batarang misfire or sneezing in the "don't breath or everything explodes" room 
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Nov 14, 2019 05:59
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Regarding Batwoman not being badass even in fight scenes: maybe capes just suck. When she was flipping through the courtroom briefly, I got the feeling that it would have been/looked faster and better without the clunky cape.
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Nov 14, 2019 06:09
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Rhyno posted:I can't agree that the writing is just bad because step-sister is wonderfully written. Well, as everyone is pointing out, the writing is really failing where Kate's character development and motivations are concerned as well as Alice's threat level and resources. It's not uniformly bad, but being so weak in the area of the most central characters casts a pretty big shadow over the show generally.
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Nov 14, 2019 12:21
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Batwoman is fighting badly right now because she's new at this. It gives her character room to grow as a superhero. She's written "weak", it's no fault of Ruby Rose. YES, she has military training and has also apparently done some other extreme ninja training for a while after she got kicked out of military school for being gay. Thing is, even a reanimated Bruce Lee would have to spend some time getting used to fighting wearing a full body armor, utility belt, mask and cape. I don't think that is actually a weakness of the show, the writing would have been a lot worse if she went around kicking all the asses and taking all the names from the first time she became a costumed hero. She's not a meta, alien or mutant, and has no super powers. Having the hero fight strongly and confidently from the start worked in Arrow because Ollie had spent five years training for his debut as a super hero, doing island parkour, surviving torture, practicing fighting with Shado and Slade, mastering archery etc. all while wearing a hood most of the time. Kate has just found out about her cousin being Batman a few days ago where we're at in the show, and has reluctantly had to take over the mantle. It would be very unlikely that she already is a master of batmanning. Her private life is also a little messy, she has not yet stood up to her dad or her ex girlfriend, and she just found out that her sister is alive and out to kill her. I, for one, hope to see the show renewed and have Kate gradually become someone genuinely intimidating, either as a confident and calculating Batwoman or a violent and "damaged" Batwoman that has lost everything. I think Rose is able to handle both those parts, but right now is not the time. She wears the cape and has the moniker, but she's not fully Batwoman yet. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of other problems with the show, but Batwoman struggling in a few of her first fights is not one of them.
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Nov 14, 2019 17:29
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I don't think it's ever been even alluded to the extent of her training other than for being a CROWS member.
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Nov 14, 2019 17:35
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kjetting posted:Having the hero fight strongly and confidently from the start worked in Arrow because Ollie had spent five years training for his debut as a super hero, doing island parkour, surviving torture, practicing fighting with Shado and Slade, mastering archery etc. all while wearing a hood most of the time. It is a problem that Batwoman can't fight for poo poo because A) she's supposed to be a super hero in a world where random people can pretty much put on a mask and start kicking arse, B) we've been explicitly told that she's had some extreme training, and C) she's not even fighting the League of Assassins or anything, she's fighting random dudes. And as far as her private life goes, it really doesn't seem to be affecting her at all. And I don't think that's an issue with Rose as an actor, the writing just doesn't account for anything carrying over from one scene to the next. It's like she's just got no long term memory. She's angry with her dad when he's right in front of her but as soon as he's out of sight she just forgets he exists. The problem isn't that she hasn't fully taken on the role of Batwoman yet, it's that the show seems to have been written without any clear focus or consistency. The characters are moved around to where they need to be without regard for motivation.
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Nov 14, 2019 19:03
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I'm definitely on the polar end of opinions. I don't love the show but I'm enjoying it. I like Alice and think she's a fun mix of kind of sympathetic but also clearly unquestionably bad and the show's done a good job with that having Kate desperately giving her repeated chances to prove she can be saved and Alice doubling down every time. I'm fine with Kate and the fact that she's still shaky as a super hero. She's not Oliver. Oliver showed up with years of training and experience, a costume, and a mission. Oliver and Kate are basically opposites. He came in with the mission and had to work to get the personal stuff right, Kate's starting trying to deal with her personal stuff and is going to have to work to find the mission. I'm game and I'm mostly enjoying it. I don't love it, I don't hate it, but I'm satisfied and nothing right now nothing feels like a dealbreaker or something that can't be rounded off or improved.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:15
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STAC Goat posted:I'm definitely on the polar end of opinions. I don't love the show but I'm enjoying it. I like Alice and think she's a fun mix of kind of sympathetic but also clearly unquestionably bad and the show's done a good job with that having Kate desperately giving her repeated chances to prove she can be saved and Alice doubling down every time. I'm fine with Kate and the fact that she's still shaky as a super hero. She's not Oliver. Oliver showed up with years of training and experience, a costume, and a mission. Oliver and Kate are basically opposites. He came in with the mission and had to work to get the personal stuff right, Kate's starting trying to deal with her personal stuff and is going to have to work to find the mission. I'm game and I'm mostly enjoying it. This is basically where I am. I'm willing to forgive it its tresspasses because Arrow and Flash have both done way more abysmal poo poo in their times and Batwoman in its current state looks like prestige television compared to crap like the Diaz arc of Arrow or Savitar on Flash.
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Nov 14, 2019 23:35
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Supergirl, on the other hand, is getting a hard pass from me this season because it doesn't even feel like they are trying anymore. Batwoman is still getting its feet wet.
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Nov 15, 2019 01:47
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Each show gets a free One Bad Season before it can be considered bad.
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Nov 15, 2019 02:00
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I think a show should be given some leeway in the first season. Very few shows are excellent right from the get go. That being said if it is the intent of the writers to tell a story of someone who is only just learning to be a hero and currently honestly kind of sucks at it; then they're doing a bad job of making that story compelling.
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Nov 15, 2019 05:09
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I think my only problem with Kate right now is I don't get her motivation for being Batwoman. At the very start of the series it makes total sense because she wants to fight Alice and her dad won't let her be a Crow. She stumbles into the Cave and presto, there's a solution. But that all goes out the window when Jacob offers her a position in the Crows. She doesn't seem to be like Bruce, believing the whole of GCPD (or the Crows) to be corrupt and ineffective, forcing her to take action outside the law (the only time she takes action against non-Alice crime is when it's thrust upon her like when Magpie or Hush broke into Wayne Enterprises to steal their poo poo). It just seems like she's not really committed to the actual stopping crime thing, she's just focused on Beth and only Beth. Other than that I have no problem with her having a little trouble with fights while adjusting to fighting in a full suit + cape.
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Nov 16, 2019 18:11
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If i was running this show, i would have shoved all the Alice stuff in the first 3 episodes, with the one revealing her kidnapping being the last one. At the end of it she would be captured and then the bomb would go off on the bridge, and there would be one of those "no one could have survived it" then you see the scene of her and Mouse showing she's still alive. Then you have the party at Hush's and in that episode its revealed that he was trying to kill Stepmom because Hush, her and all the other rich assholes in Gotham are behind how lovely everything is. Hush felt if he murdered a bunch of them, he'd become the conspiracies leader. He gloats that he'll be out of jail in a week, and Stepmom tells him that no, because of his disloyalty to her and the cabal, he's going to rot, because she owns every judge in the city. The meta plot should be evil stepmom and the other rich assholes and their destroying of Gotham for their own gains. Lucius was already looking into this, him seeing Gothams collapse and being something that wasn't just because of bad economy or crime, but being directed with subtly that almost anyone else would miss. The Crows already know they're enforcing security for the rich, but they are unaware that it goes beyond just standard PMC evil.
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Nov 16, 2019 20:38
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The stepmom just kind of disappearing was definitely an odd choice. Right now she's feeling less like an antagonist and more like a plot device. And one that probably wasn't even necessary since like they could have just assumed Beth dead and that still could have made Alice mad. But then again with no stepmom we'd have no Mary. TwoPair posted:I think my only problem with Kate right now is I don't get her motivation for being Batwoman. At the very start of the series it makes total sense because she wants to fight Alice and her dad won't let her be a Crow. She stumbles into the Cave and presto, there's a solution. But that all goes out the window when Jacob offers her a position in the Crows. She doesn't seem to be like Bruce, believing the whole of GCPD (or the Crows) to be corrupt and ineffective, forcing her to take action outside the law (the only time she takes action against non-Alice crime is when it's thrust upon her like when Magpie or Hush broke into Wayne Enterprises to steal their poo poo). It just seems like she's not really committed to the actual stopping crime thing, she's just focused on Beth and only Beth. Eh, I don't mind Kate's confused motivations because I think she's a confused character. Becoming Batwoman has almost been an accident. She just keeps making short term decisions based on life changing revelations and then those decisions get her in deeper. The whole "I accidently inspired the city and I can't abandon them" thing was clunky but I think it's basically a whole mess od guilt and responsibility she feels to Beth, Bruce, and Gotham combined with her just not really knowing what the hell to do with her life anymore. The one guy whose motivations bother me is Fox because that guy just seems simultaneously bored so he wants a Bat to work with but also put out by the whole thing. I don't get him at all.
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Nov 16, 2019 23:09
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Kate just wants to bang Rachel Maddow and will do anything to keep her thirsty for batpeople
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Nov 17, 2019 05:48
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I completely forgot about Julia Pennyworth showing up and thought that was Talia for a second.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:13
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howe_sam posted:I completely forgot about Julia Pennyworth showing up and thought that was Talia for a second. That would have been an awesome bit interconnection to the larger Arrowverse, not gonna lie.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:23
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Sophie: Still the worst
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Nov 18, 2019 02:24
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I think I only caught the tail end of Julia's intro. I expected her to be more dark skinned like her modern version.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:24
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howe_sam posted:Sophie: Still the worst Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:28
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~drama~
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Nov 18, 2019 02:29
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nine-gear crow posted:Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. And getting worse every minute. Wow. Edit: Mary is the first person who should've been let in on this. Damnit Kate. Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 02:29
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Okay, Sophie's husband a new contestant for the title of the worst. Mary on the other hand, the best.
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Nov 18, 2019 02:31
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howe_sam posted:Sophie: Still the worst And somehow continuing to get even worser still. Mother of God!
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Nov 18, 2019 02:34
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