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Lambert posted:And, apparently, people don't value that unique experience. VR was a neat experience when I tried it at a gaming bar and I'd like to play around with it more, but I don't have the disposable income to justify purchasing a set for myself. Just a bad value proposition in terms of hardware/software/longevity, nothing to do with the actual using part. 
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Nov 18, 2019 12:57
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isndl posted:VR was a neat experience when I tried it at a gaming bar and I'd like to play around with it more, but I don't have the disposable income to justify purchasing a set for myself. Just a bad value proposition in terms of hardware/software/longevity, nothing to do with the actual using part. The Quest is US$400 and does anything you would want from a VR headset. There's regular firesales of WMR headsets at ~$150ish too but I'd only go for that if you were destitute or something.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:13
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Lambert posted:And I think the immersion is the problem with VR, and why it hasn't found a market so far: Yes, it's an unique experience, but I usually don't want to be "fully immersed" in my games - I like being able to check my phone, look at the other people in my life or eat a snack. Or watch Netflix on my second screen. meanwhile, vr is perfect for me. it's like different people do things differently? oh no!
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Nov 18, 2019 13:15
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Truga posted:meanwhile, vr is perfect for me. it's like different people do things differently? oh no! It's great you like it so much. There are always some people that like niche products. But what I'm saying is that VR will remain a tiny niche in gaming because it's fundamentally not that appealing a product to most people. And the last few years are pretty obvious proof of that. Lambert fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 13:16
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Most of the complaints you have are technological problems that can be overcome, not anything intrinsic to VR itself. You can already place a virtual monitor in VR and play Netflix on it, I've even gotten my phone in VR complete with touch input (via a messy setup process that makes it impractical to use). Taking a drink or eating a snack would require better pass-through as well as more compact HMD designs, neither of which are some far flung future tech. VR is progressing as fast as any other nascent tech does. Smartphones (or PDAs) didn't sell gangbusters initially either and for good reason: the hardware wasn't there yet for people outside of the niche where the gains outweigh the inconveniences. Same cycle for cars, personal computers, game consoles etc.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:25
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Except there's no magic future tech coming down the pike that makes VR googles not be some huge monstrosity sitting on your head, and that's why it's fundamentally never going to be the "next computer" or "next smartphone". But even if they weren't, I (and many other people) don't want to be completely isolated while playing or watching something. Pass-through cameras won't help with this.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:29
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Lambert posted:It's great you like it so much. There are always some people that like niche products. But what I'm saying is that VR will remain a tiny niche in gaming because it's fundamentally not that appealing a product to most people. And the last few years are pretty obvious proof of that. Proof that there's been steady growth in VR sales? VR is where gaming was in the early 90s, all the games are turbo niche or tiny because there's not enough audience for big budgets yet, and software developers are trying to figure out what works well and what doesn't in the new thing, and tech is progressing just fine. I dunno, maybe it'll stay niche, but at the moment it seems like it's growing just fine. Lambert posted:(and many other people)
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Nov 18, 2019 13:35
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Truga posted:Proof that there's been steady growth in VR sales? VR is where gaming was in the early 90s, all the games are turbo niche or tiny because there's not enough audience for big budgets yet, and software developers are trying to figure out what works well and what doesn't in the new thing, and tech is progressing just fine. At the moment, it seems like it's a niche that's not really growing much, there's not much interest behind it and less and less companies are investing.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:37
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I haven't bought a VR headset myself yet but once software like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HwLeJSAGc runs in this detail on a home computer in VR im 100% convinced that it's going to leave the perceived "tiny niche" that it is in. 5 more years maybe?
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Nov 18, 2019 13:39
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Lambert posted:Except there's no magic future tech coming down the pike that makes VR googles not be some huge monstrosity sitting on your head, and that's why it's fundamentally never going to be the "next computer" or "next smartphone". That isolation argument is an interesting one because it's based entirely some vague person feeling that you have, with you projecting it onto a broad spectrum of the population without any real evidence. People isolate themselves when they use a phone, no one needs a headset close themselves off from the world. If you feel insecure wearing a headset in your home I'd probably recommend seeing a therapist?
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Nov 18, 2019 13:40
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SCheeseman posted:Pancake lenses and curved panels should flatten designs down quite a bit and Oculus has been experimenting with a substrate that can shift focal depths which could get the form factor closer to Sony Glasstron-like proportions. Or maybe I'm observing existing reality, "full immersion" isn't interesting to most people. Wearing a VR headset is a whole other level of "closing oneself off from the world" than looking at a phone. There's a reason neither VR titles nor headsets are really selling. Maybe get a therapist if criticizing VR makes you this insecure and resort to weird personal attacks? eames posted:runs in this detail on a home computer in VR im 100% convinced that it's going to leave the perceived "tiny niche" that it is in. I really don't think the quality is the real issue.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:42
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SCheeseman posted:The Quest is US$400 and does anything you would want from a VR headset. There's regular firesales of WMR headsets at ~$150ish too but I'd only go for that if you were destitute or something. As far as VR headsets go it's probably not a bad deal, but for that money I could get a Switch instead, or put that money into desktop upgrades. VR is a lot of money for rather narrow use.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:50
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Lambert posted:Or maybe I'm observing existing reality, "full immersion" isn't interesting to most people. Wearing a VR headset is a whole other level of "closing oneself off from the world" than looking at a phone. There's a reason neither VR titles nor headsets are really selling. I'm sorry for saying you should go to a therapist on the something awful forums, where everyone should be seeing a therapist.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:50
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Lambert posted:I really don't think the quality is the real issue. It really isn't. The price of both the hardware and the software are. I demo VR to people fairly regularly, the majority get out of it interested, but then they also balk as soon as I tell them the cheapest thing I can recommend if they don't already have a game PC built in the last 5 or so years is "~400 eurobux and $30+ videogames that play for 2-4h on average". When you can buy the whole thing for $50 used, and games go for steam sales prices, a lot more people will want this poo poo. e;fb
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Nov 18, 2019 13:55
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Destitute people can't afford $150 for a lovely VR headset, and plenty of people aren't going to try to free up $400+ for a good one either. It's a niche for people with a lot of disposable income in the first place, and it isn't necessary to play the best games being made right now so a lot of folks are just going to give it a pass. You could make the argument that graphics cards have similar price metrics and people buy them, but you can use a graphics card to make shiny pixels in tons of games that aren't locking you off from the world so completely, and they are longer and more complete experiences since that's still where the money is on the development side too. If VR gets in the sub-$100 range for actually good ones and/or there start to be some really great VR-only titles that make people want to go out of their way for the experience I could see it achieving more popularity but as it is, from my own perspective as someone who is willing to buy video game hardware, you have to be willing to invest more than seems reasonable for how few titles are available and good, and given how clunky the whole thing is. Agreed fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 13:55
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isndl posted:As far as VR headsets go it's probably not a bad deal, but for that money I could get a Switch instead, or put that money into desktop upgrades. VR is a lot of money for rather narrow use. I played through Disco Elysium laying down in bed with the game running on a big virtual display positioned where my ceiling is. If you travel it makes for an excellent portable home cinema too, resolution isn't incredible but it beats looking at a phone screen or tablet.
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Nov 18, 2019 13:56
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SCheeseman posted:Pancake lenses and curved panels should flatten designs down quite a bit and Oculus has been experimenting with a substrate that can shift focal depths which could get the form factor closer to Sony Glasstron-like proportions. Metamaterial lenses also are showing pretty great promise. Between that and the not-too-far-from-now ability to get 4k per eye screens, the whole resolution/visual quality argument should pretty much drop off. He's right that a VR headset isn't going to replace everyone's gaming console anytime soon. Even with pass-through, it'd be a real challenge to not get in the way of the "sitting on your couch with a friend" social experience, nor is it going to appeal to the type of gamer who wants to play Candycrush while also checking their email while also dicking around on their phone or whatever. But, as someone who actually has a VR headset...they're super neat. I don't really think that "oh man, I have to put on a headset!" is nearly as much of a barrier as some think it is, especially as they move to wireless headsets. Rather, as has been pointed out here by several people, it's the fact that it's loving expensive as poo poo for a very limited library of games, which are also expensive. It's like arguing that "no one plays top end PC games!" because sales of the 2080Ti haven't been great: it's not that it's not a compelling product, it's that for most people it's not a compelling product at the price they're asking. Also, I think that anyone who naysays VR in general is really missing one big item that I expect will come heavily into play once prices drop a bit further: VR porn. With a bit better resolution / eye-sync, and cheaper headsets (so like...two generations from now?), I think it'll get a ton of attention. I mean, unless you're the type that wants to be social while you jerk off or whatever. To each their own and all that.
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Nov 18, 2019 14:23
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I'll be up for VR as soon as I don't have to put some drat headset on for it to work. I don't even like wearing headphones let alone some bulky headset, maybe if it were no heavier than a pair of glasses I'd try it.
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Nov 18, 2019 14:48
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The GPU Megat[H]read - destitute, lost in VR and in need of therapy
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Nov 18, 2019 14:59
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VR is a gimmick in that it will always be a tiny minority of gaming experiences. It's not going to become the majority use case for the same reason glasses won't replace phones - you give up a huge amount of utility, flexibility, and social acceptability by having something attached to your head. It's not a gimmick in that it has real appeal, and people will keep going back to it on occasion. VR offers unique and genuinely interesting experiences that you cannot get any other way, particularly in terms of input and your perception of it. I think we're still over a decade from really widespread adoption. When it finally does happen, it will be driven by a combination of cheap hardware, mature and a real killer app - something as popular as Minecraft, COD, or Halo was, and similarly at a price point that's accessible to college students. There will be a spike in VR usage when that happens, and then afterward it will fall down and level off as that thing people bust out every once in a while when they want that particular sort of experience. It's gonna suck to be a person who gets motion sickness once we hit the point that legitimately good VR games are coming out on a regular basis. It'll be the first time some kind of disability actually impacts a large percentage of gamers, but I don't think there's anything to be done about it. Sucks to be you, broke brains!
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Nov 18, 2019 15:06
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K8.0 posted:It's gonna suck to be a person who gets motion sickness once we hit the point that legitimately good VR games are coming out on a regular basis. It'll be the first time some kind of disability actually impacts a large percentage of gamers, but I don't think there's anything to be done about it. Sucks to be you, broke brains! 
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Nov 18, 2019 15:18
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:I'll be up for VR as soon as I don't have to put some drat headset on for it to work. My man they already make that, its called LSD.
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Nov 18, 2019 15:18
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-delete
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Nov 18, 2019 15:29
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Trying to relate VR to high-end GPUs doesn't really make sense. R&D on high-end GPUs flows down over time to mass-market cards and console hardware. There's a "universal" pool of games that high-end GPU owners have access to. That's not the case with VR hardware and software development. And I don't think VR being a small and pricey hobbyist niche is going to work out either. The industry is being kept afloat by a handful of companies (Facebook/Valve) making a bet that they can make it a mass market product. I don't see them staying in it long-term if it doesn't go mainstream.
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Nov 18, 2019 15:50
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If it wasn't for the resolution issue I'd use a VR headset as a primary display. The unlimited space to put windows and the ability to overlay windows without restriction is amazing, but with 1080p screens the effective resolution of these screens is bad and text is illegible. But that's a simple fix and is already being worked on.
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Nov 18, 2019 15:56
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shrike82 posted:Trying to relate VR to high-end GPUs doesn't really make sense. R&D on high-end GPUs flows down over time to mass-market cards and console hardware. There's a "universal" pool of games that high-end GPU owners have access to. That's not the case with VR hardware and software development. Your first point is basically "this is a new sector with unestablished standards, hardware, etc., while the GPU sector is mature and has a huge backlog of content" which is true enough, but that's not really a dig against VR specifically, it's just a note on where the industry is at this point in time. I mean, does anyone else remember the joy of early PC GPU gaming when you found out your expensive new TNT2 card didn't support Glide? Great times! R&D on high end headsets and components absolutely is trickling down: there's a reason <$200 WMR headsets exist now but didn't back in 2015. The move to HMD cameras instead of external light posts is also bringing costs down and simplifying setup, which is nice. I'll agree with you that the gamer-space for VR is struggling, since boot-strapping a new market is, well, a challenge. But even if FB/Valve abandon it, the R&D will continue because VR is just hilariously better for a whole poo poo ton of things, like military flight simulation. The DoD will happily keep the entire VR space moving along on its own, much like they did with early computers, and eventually a truly viable consumer product will drop out of that space.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:11
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Just beam unlimited resolution directly into my brain via the optic nerve. TIA. 
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Nov 18, 2019 16:11
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Truga posted:It really isn't. The price of both the hardware and the software are. I demo VR to people fairly regularly, the majority get out of it interested, but then they also balk as soon as I tell them the cheapest thing I can recommend if they don't already have a game PC built in the last 5 or so years is "~400 eurobux and $30+ videogames that play for 2-4h on average". I think specifically the games are the issue. There just is not enough content right now... “2-4 hour experiences” aren’t what people want, even if it was $5 instead of $30. they want the next Witcher 3 or at least Minecraft, something they can sink at least tens if not hundreds of hours into. Hellblade is only one of a handful of titles available with that kind of content in the VR market. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 16:16
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Lambert posted:There are no actual Occulus Quest sales number Yes there are https://www.superdataresearch.com/s..._eid=e0b282f78a quote:2019 earnings from consumer sales of VR headsets are set to grow 16% over 2018.... 
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Nov 18, 2019 16:22
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Holey moley, didn't realize the VR market was in this dire straits. When even the most popular VR headset (PS VR) is considered by the manufacturer to be one of their problem areas, so basically a flop, paints a sad picture. Paul MaudDib posted:I think specifically the games are the issue. There just is not enough content right now... “2-4 hour experiences” aren’t what people want, even if it was $5 instead of $30. they want the next Witcher 3 or at least Minecraft, something they can sink at least tens if not hundreds of hours into. The nature of VR means those types of experiences aren't really enjoyable to play in VR for extended periods of time or appealing to most people.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:29
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Lambert posted:Holey moley, didn't realize the VR market was in this dire straits. When even the most popular VR headset (PS VR) is considered by the manufacturer to be one of their problem areas, so basically a flop, paints a sad picture. Why are you being so weird about this? You are a smart enough person to know what isn't what was said.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:31
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lmao imagine being so brain poisoned by capitalism that thinking literal millions of shipped units of lovely early adopter hardware is a "flop"
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Nov 18, 2019 16:33
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Truga posted:lmao imagine being so brain poisoned by capitalism that thinking literal millions of shipped units of early lovely adopter hardware is a "flop" Sony specifically called VR out as such (a "problem area") in one of their recent earnings reports. And 180k is in its launch quarter is even sadder for Oculus.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:34
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are you arguing facebook/sony execs don't have capitalism poisoning here? who cares what they're saying lmao economics isn't even a science
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Nov 18, 2019 16:36
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DrDork posted:R&D on high end headsets and components absolutely is trickling down: there's a reason <$200 WMR headsets exist now but didn't back in 2015. i was under the impression that wmr flopped and the headsets were dirt cheap out of desperation to liquidate the stock looking now, most of the wmr headsets appear to be end-of-life with no replacements announced e: the official wmr site boasts "a variety of headsets to choose from" with a picture of 6 different headsets, but if you click through to their store they only have one model left and it's barely cheaper than a quest/rift-s lol repiv fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 16:37
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a wmr headset is just an oculus quest without the local arm processor that runs android, if it wasn't cheap it'd have even less a niche. otoh, the wmr environment being deader than dead is probably on microsoft.  e: I mean, flight sim 2020 is going to release without vr support lmfao. they had an amazing title that would work amazingly in vr and could tie it to wmr, but nope
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Nov 18, 2019 16:41
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Truga posted:e: I mean, flight sim 2020 is going to release without vr support lmfao. they had an amazing title that would work amazingly in vr and could tie it to wmr, but nope I think you know why though. It's not worth their time, just like making Linux ports of games 
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Nov 18, 2019 16:47
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Lambert posted:Sony specifically called VR out as such (a "problem area") in one of their recent earnings reports. Do you have a Link to them calling out VR? Because the only thing I can find is there PS4 hardware lineup as a whole.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:56
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Truga posted:lmao imagine being so brain poisoned by capitalism that thinking literal millions of shipped units of lovely early adopter hardware is a "flop" Well, both things can be true at the same time, depending on your viewpoint. It's entirely possible that, despite nearly 5M units sold, the margins on the hardware were thin enough that it hasn't generated much of a return. Consoles (other than Nintendo) are famous for selling hardware at a loss and then hoping to make it up on long-tail software sales. As has been pointed out, the game library for VR isn't terribly deep, so yeah, they may very well have needed to sell a lot more software than they did in order to actually turn a profit.
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Nov 18, 2019 16:58
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The Index is made in small numbers and sold at a premium to make a profit. Quest is sold at cost with marked up software similar to a console like approach. Both seem to be somewhat sustainable for now, though the Quest getting PCVR support this month makes things weird. WMR was a trainwreck from the very beginning, Microsoft had no idea what they were doing.
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Nov 18, 2019 17:12
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