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Colonel Whitey posted:There's nothing inherently wrong with cliffhangers unless your brain literally can't handle the delayed gratification Sort of a false dichotomy Cliffhangers are just the narrative equivalent of a Jump Scare. Effective yes, but they're a low effort form of story telling. Far more insulting than the "flashbacks for the audience" imho. It shows a lack of confidence in the work that they think they need to rely on them. Again, show is great, solid 7 out of 10, this is my one nitpick I'm sure everyone has something about the show they don't like
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Nov 18, 2019 20:05
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Colonel Whitey posted:There's nothing inherently wrong with cliffhangers unless your brain literally can't handle the delayed gratification I usually enjoy a good cliffhanger because I enjoy the mid season speculation and discussion that comes from them. But I get why some people wouldn’t like it 🤷🏻♂️
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Nov 18, 2019 20:06
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Imagine if they had tried to cram an explanation of what's in the hatch into the Season 1 finale instead of saving it for the Season 2 premiere.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:13
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I don't mean to be insulting with this but I honestly find it utterly baffling that anyone could complain about episodic cliffhangers in a TV show. I mean, yeah, they're frustrating. That's the point.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:20
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Imagine if they had tried to cram an explanation of what's in the hatch into the Season 1 finale instead of saving it for the Season 2 premiere. It would ruin what is easily one of the best season openers ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7GkdaLSxeQ
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Nov 18, 2019 20:26
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Really the only bad cliffhanger is one that's just a cheap misdirect and doesn't end up moving the plot forward in any way. If LG is kidnapped and taken somewhere else, then that's fine. If he's killed, that's kind of a weird way to off him, but it's not cheap. If they show up and he's already left the house and the next time we see him he just says "boy, I just had a close call", then that is kind of cheap. The ending of the loot train GoT episode where it ends with a shot of Jamie sinking to the bottom of a lake is a pretty textbook example of a cheap cliffhanger. No one leaves that episode convinced he's really in danger, and indeed he's immediately rescued at the beginning of the next episode, by the same companions he'd been with in the previous. It didn't give any hint of the shape of things to come, and didn't move the story forward in any way, or have lasting impact on the character in any way.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:27
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Arist posted:I don't mean to be insulting with this but I honestly find it utterly baffling that anyone could complain about episodic cliffhangers in a TV show. Yeah like holy poo poo don’t ever watch 24 it’ll give you a heart attack
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Nov 18, 2019 20:27
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General Dog posted:Really the only bad cliffhanger is one that's just a cheap misdirect and doesn't end up moving the plot forward in any way. If LG is kidnapped and taken somewhere else, then that's fine. If he's killed, that's kind of a weird way to off him, but it's not cheap. If they show up and he's already left the house and the next time we see him he just says "boy, I just had a close call", then that is kind of cheap. AMC’s The Killing was pretty bad with this. Every episode ended with some new information that made Simone a suspect, and then that info would immediately be put into a different context at the opening of the next episode.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:28
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MaoistBanker posted:West Wing S1 is the loving worst. Someone on the radio yelling "WHO'S BEEN HIT?! WHO'S BEEN HIT?!" after gunman fire into the Presidential motorcade as it fades to black. The DVD has the same music playing over the credits on each episode so this really loving happy and jaunty tune playing over the credits after every sad episode is the funniest loving thing I've ever heard Nearly every season of the West Wing had a lovely season ending cliffhanger.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:29
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Darko posted:On rewatch, I don't mind the flashbacks as much; I saw them as trying to ape Nolan stuff like The Prestige or the Dark Knight movies where the main character flashes back quickly at critical moments to give you their mindset The original Watchmen comic does it, like, all the drat time.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:33
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Arist posted:I don't mean to be insulting with this but I honestly find it utterly baffling that anyone could complain about episodic cliffhangers in a TV show. I certainly am not complaining that they're frustrating. They're exceptionally lazy to the point that they break immersion. No different from that infamous lingering shot of Alice Eve in her undies in Star Trek into Darkness The storytellers are either worried their product needs to be propped up by cheesecake shots, jump scares, or ending a story mid beat, or that their audience is slack jawed enough that they need the most base forms of stimulation IMHO watchmen is good enough and the audience smart enough that it doesn't need to rely on them. But you know what? Shakespeare had political intrigue on the same page as dick jokes so maybe the best storytellers are the ones that cater to everyone all at once
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Nov 18, 2019 20:36
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Cliffhangers and jump scares aren't "objectively" bad. There are countless examples of effective uses of them. They're one of many tools in the writer's toolbox, and just like all the other ones, it's all about the execution. In any case, nobody watching this latest episode should expect LG to be dead, or even in danger of dying. The suspense is obviously in how he survives and what happens after that. And because we spent the entire episode getting to know the guy, we now care what happens to him.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:37
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Groke posted:The original Watchmen comic does it, like, all the drat time.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:38
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I certainly am not complaining that they're frustrating. They're exceptionally lazy to the point that they break immersion. No different from that infamous lingering shot of Alice Eve in her undies in Star Trek into Darkness Whoa there buddy, that’s probably the only think I liked from that movie
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Nov 18, 2019 20:41
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Hansen85 posted:Cliffhangers and jump scares aren't "objectively" bad. There are countless examples of effective uses of them. They're one of many tools in the writer's toolbox, and just like all the other ones, it's all about the execution. Oh man, how funny was it when Mercutio held the sword up to his groin and said it was his swizzle stick?
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Nov 18, 2019 20:41
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I certainly am not complaining that they're frustrating. They're exceptionally lazy to the point that they break immersion. No different from that infamous lingering shot of Alice Eve in her undies in Star Trek into Darkness lol I want whatever galaxy brain poo poo you're on
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Nov 18, 2019 20:49
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Confirmed that it's Europa in case anyone was still not certain.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:51
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Nieuw Amsterdam posted:The first thing Veidt did when Rorschach and Nite Owl showed up was to confess and give all the details how he did it. Well they would have found out pretty quickly anyways. Veidt's a megalomaniac but I don't believe circa 1985 Ozy would be so cavalier as the video to Redford.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:00
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Watch it be that Veidt’s video is forged to pin the massacre on him while not realizing that Veidt IS the mastermind behind it all.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:02
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I figured it was probably Trieu who built Veidt's prison because it seems out of character for Manhattan, but after the reveal it's some sort of dimensional pocket on Europa it's almost certainly a creation of Manhattan's. Angela is going to have one hell of a bad trip next episode. Re: psychics, couldn't the 11/2 squid deaths just be due to the pressure wave of a giant squid teleporting into NYC? All the people who died were bleeding from their ears.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:08
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I think veidts SAVE ME D has to be SAVE ME DR (Manhattan). Because unless starship technology is 1000x better in Watchman timeline than on earth who the gently caress else could mount a mission to Europa to save one guy? That still leaves the question of how he got there in the first place though. When he says that the place is a prison, is it literally built as a prison intended for him or did he perhaps stumble upon it and find himself marooned there? "When I first came to this place I thought it was a paradise but now I know its a prison". Since Veidts not a complete moron if someone was explicitly imprisioning him it would have taken less than a year to figure that out. massive spider fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 21:09
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Like almost every episode of Breaking Bad ended with a cliffhanger and it was fantastic. Saying it doesn’t work in “modern storytelling” is just an admission one has had their mind broken and enfeebled by stupid “binge watching” Netflix culture.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:12
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massive spider posted:I think veidts SAVE ME D has to be SAVE ME DR (Manhattan). Because unless starship technology is 1000x better in Watchman timeline than on earth who the gently caress else could mount a mission to Europa to save one guy? This episode showed/introduced teleportation tech being used by terrorist so the better refined/stronger applications of the technology most likely already exists. I don’t think starships come into the equation at all.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:12
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Darko posted:I love Irons' goofy take on the more comic-like version, though. Honestly I just assume they had a camera crew follow Irons around as he does his normal day to day life and just edit out the weird homophobic tirades. GoGoGadgetChris posted:Why bring up Lost? Why claim it's a Big Deal? Calm down This isn't a cliffhanger, if you can't handle an episode ending without everything being resolved maybe serialized television just isn't for you.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:12
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Sleeveless posted:
I gave it a 7/10 :-) Weapons down, bud
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Nov 18, 2019 21:15
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I got a lot of Vince McMahon vibes from Veidt's speech this episode.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:16
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Forceholy posted:I got a lot of Vince McMahon vibes from Veidt's speech this episode. Yeah I thought Old Veidt was supposed to be a bit deranged from his isolation and age, but the 1985 recording makes it clear that he's always been a Nut in this telling Which TOTALLY works for a guy who's obsessed with Legacy and uses Ozymandias as a brand
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Nov 18, 2019 21:17
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Pellisworth posted:Re: psychics, couldn't the 11/2 squid deaths just be due to the pressure wave of a giant squid teleporting into NYC? All the people who died were bleeding from their ears. A large part of Veidt's plan was having artists create horrifying alien imagery and encoding it into the squid brain so people would be overwhelmed by the sensory overload. Really not too crazy that psychics exist in a world where Dr. Manhattan does. poo poo, maybe Jon was a sensitive and that's how his consciousness survived his disintegration.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:20
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I don't believe that all of the flashbacks in the Glass episode are due to poor editing; dude has severe PTSD and that involves regular flashbacks. it was a good way to personalize the episode to him, in my opinion. side note, did anyone else notice the painting of the squid's eye in the 7K headquarters?
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Nov 18, 2019 21:29
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Mantis42 posted:Well they would have found out pretty quickly anyways. How? All the plotters were murdered by Veidt. He even killed his butlers to cover absolutely everything. Rorschach could figure Veidt had SOMETHING to do with Blake’s death, but not exactly what. And the connection to the Squiddening is not direct- Blake saw something on an island, he may or may not have understood all the implications, but it looked bad. Blake is dead and can’t talk. Moloch, his confessor, is dead and can’t talk. Dreiberg didn’t get it and didn’t really believe it, but he trusted Rorschach. Veidt learned in 1985 that the best way to conceal 11/2 was to make threats into co-conspirators. Manhattan basically said “do what you want, this is better than the alternative, I’m not here to judge your morality” and hosed off. Rorschach is a red mist. His journal is believed only by extremists, and it leaves a lot of poo poo out. Dreiberg kept his mouth shut until at least 2019 as per Peteypedia. Laurie only talks as ‘insurance’ as per Peteypedia. Keene tells Looking Glass that he can talk, but no one will believe this conspiracy theory bullshit since 7K dead-Enders are considered loons. Imagine you are Barack Obama. In 2009 you are given a videotape recorded in 1999 where Stephen Hawking confesses to planning and doing 9/11 in order to save the world, and addresses you by name years before you even thought of running. You can expose him or you can work with him to get all your policy goals accomplished. Hawking is one of your heroes. If you expose him you risk human extinction and mass chaos. What do you do? You obviously can’t outsmart this guy, he is so many steps ahead of you it’s absurd. (In the comic Doomsday Clock, Redford does expose Veidt, which leads to the Nuclear War happening in 1992, and Ozymandias moving to the DC Universe) Veidt thinks he’s Alexander the Great, but better. How can you stop him? In the video, he did it 7 years ago! You risk everything by exposing him. He believes he has the entire world in check. If you expose him you are now complicit because you knew and did nothing. If you don’t expose him you are complicit because you knew and did nothing.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:30
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massive spider posted:I think veidts SAVE ME D has to be SAVE ME DR (Manhattan). Because unless starship technology is 1000x better in Watchman timeline than on earth who the gently caress else could mount a mission to Europa to save one guy? But why would Dr. Manhattan save him if it was Manhattan that put him there in the first place? Also that satellite orbiting means that someone else is watching too.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:41
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SAVE ME DAN, USING ARCHIE, AS IT IS HERMETICALLY SEALED AND YOU HAVE A HISTORY OF RESCUING MASKS FROM CAPTIVITY
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Nov 18, 2019 21:45
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18 years and several rereads after first reading the book and I finally notice the drat smiley face. (don't ever assume something is 'obvious' in a story)
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Nov 18, 2019 21:46
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Pellisworth posted:Re: psychics, couldn't the 11/2 squid deaths just be due to the pressure wave of a giant squid teleporting into NYC? All the people who died were bleeding from their ears. I seem to remember in the supplemental material that Veidt had been working on teleportation tech, but if what was teleported came into contact with something already occupying the space it went into, it results in an explosion. The concussive force of something as big as the squid was likely enough to wipe out most of the carnival goers in Jersey. And those that weren't killed outright were affected by the psychic pulse(?) that the creature's brain put out upon its death.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:46
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massive spider posted:I think veidts SAVE ME D has to be SAVE ME DR (Manhattan). Because unless starship technology is 1000x better in Watchman timeline than on earth who the gently caress else could mount a mission to Europa to save one guy? As has been pointed out, Veidt calls Dr. Manhattan "Jon" throughout the comic. And yeah, for sure he's trying to be saved with interdimensional tech rather than space tech.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:48
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I just realised Looking Glass cannot be a psychic because the entire point of his mask is to block psychic influence. his purported ability to see lies came about because he's just that paranoid from the time someone lied to him and the world ended. ymgve posted:But why would Dr. Manhattan save him if it was Manhattan that put him there in the first place? Also that satellite orbiting means that someone else is watching too. My current thoughts are that the place on europa is a discarded Dr Manhattan science experiment that Adrian teleported himself to for whatever reason. There may be clones of varying intelligence- dumb version 1.0 ones programmed to imprint on the first person they see and smarter 2.0 ones like the warden, the smart ones hate him but will tolerate him so long as he doesn't try to escape and reveal their existence. massive spider fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Nov 18, 2019 |
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Nov 18, 2019 21:49
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:SAVE ME DAN, I have to believe the secret leader of the US would know that Dan Dreiberg has been locked up since 1995.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:53
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I gave it a 7/10 :-) You better have a strong argument and the guts to carry it through some challenges if youre gunna call something objectively bad because thats a hell of a criticism to level at anything involving art and entertainment, bud.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:56
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Nail Rat posted:I have to believe the secret leader of the US would know that Dan Dreiberg has been locked up since 1995. I'm near certain they've got a clone in jail and Dan never left Oklahoma.
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Nov 18, 2019 21:59
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feedmyleg posted:I think it's a pocket dimension that Manhattan created. He went to Europa to create his own life and made a little bubble where human beings could survive (to not make the same mistake he made when he took Laurie to Mars!). Veidt knew that Manhattan went to Europa (hence the satellite) and followed him there using the teleporation and interdimensional tech that had already been in the works in '85. So now he's stuck in a little pocket dimension with a bunch of half-formed quasi-humans that Manhattan created and got bored with until he hosed off somewhere else. The warden is only imprisoning Veidt because they're a bunch of backwards yokels with brainworms. They put Veidt up in a mansion because he's clearly the smartest man on Europa. That doesn't sit right to me. It feels like an imposed exile. Presumably either Manhattan or the Government knows the truth and is punishing him for doing what he did, and/or containing him because he's so extremely dangerous.
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