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kustomkarkommando
Oct 22, 2012

Azza Bamboo posted:

The ITV debate is for the two main parties, which is a legitimate decision in our FPTP system

I mean third party complaints that presenting a binary debate serves to forward the campaign position of each of the largest parties that any given election is a binary choice between them has some weight (the LibDems being idiots didn't really argue this and spent most of today arguing that Remain deserves representation at the debates in the form of them).

And no one can really explain the magic formula that gives us a 7 party debate later on

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Eararaldor
Jul 30, 2007
Fanboys, ruining gaming since the 1980's
Welp, channel 4 just did the Political slot with a Conservative TV advert.

Had Dominic Cummings all over it. Borris walking around talking about Marmite and other poo poo (oh a minority!! Look I’m friends with him!!)

My wife stoped paying attention when he made a cup of tea and left the teabag in, without stirring. After that she got into a right rage about his Tea. Mission accomplished Conservatives!

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

Guavanaut posted:

And the more 'adult' shows always had a "ha ha it's a man in a dress I bet he's a gay" 'joke'. Often with the defence that "well at least we're talking about it." Sure, in the same way that Roy Chubby Brown isn't afraid to talk about race.

We're not laughing at you we're laughing towards you!

RockyB
Mar 8, 2007


Dog Therapy: Shockingly Good
Well this is an excellent article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/broadband-communism-founding-nhs

quote:

Decommodification – where something we need stops being delivered at the whim of the market and becomes a social entitlement – has always been politically controversial. For students of history (or simply those equipped with a search engine and time to spare), the hysteria greeting John McDonnell’s announcement was a familiar ditty. The launch of the National Health Service in 1948, one of the world’s foremost examples of something being decommodified in the interest of the social good, was met with nothing less than horror by those with vested interests in the private provision of medicine.

Sir Bernard Docker, who sat at the top of private firms Daimler, British Small Arms and Westminster Hospital, and was chairman of the British Hospitals Association, denounced the National Health Service bill as a “mechanism in which the patient will get caught and mangled”, and predicted that the decommodification of heathcare would result in the “mass murder of hospitals”. Led by Charles Hill, secretary of the British Medical Association and the soothing voice of the BBC’s wartime show Radio Doctor, a reported 89% of doctors opposed the government’s plan to bring them into the public sector.

Conservatives took up the hue and cry. David Eccles, the Tory MP for Chippenham, said that the in-housing of medical practitioners was tantamount to an assault on “liberty and order”. Labour’s health minister Nye Bevan was singled out as behaving like “a dictator”, in a riff that was picked up by the rightwing press at the time. The Daily Sketch, a Conservative-supporting tabloid, lost its mind entirely: “The state medical service is part of the socialist plot to convert Great Britain into a National Socialist economy. The doctors’ stand is the first effective revolt of the professional classes against socialist tyranny. There is nothing that Bevan or any other socialist can do about it in the shape of Hitlerian coercion.”


Makes the same points as a lot of us since the broadband announcement. Just, as always, don't read the comments.

dispatch_async
Nov 28, 2014

Imagine having the time to have played through 20 generations of one family in The Sims 2. Imagine making the original two members of that family Neil Buchanan and Cat Deeley. Imagine complaining to Maxis there was no technological progression. You've successfully imagined my life

Guavanaut posted:

(This is zero part of my preferring RLB over Rayner, because I didn't even know it until today, but "Rayner left secondary school aged 16 whilst pregnant and without any recognised qualifications." is going to lead to some loving charming lines of attack in the press, I can feel it. In fact it might be a point in her favor, because people with lived experience of that don't get enough representation in Parliament, and she's done good work in the Education post. She might do better work continuing in Education or Families and Children and have a leftier leader.)

Telegraph hacks are way ahead of you
https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1176043087103238149

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Lol @ leftists are actually hitler when hitler was barely cold.

Wiggly Wayne DDS
Sep 11, 2010



RockyB posted:

Lmao. "those charts are misleading in a sense of reinforcing the view that media somewhat controls how people think about parties. At best they reflect and reinforce existing views."
it's funnier to take the pollsters underlying data and remove their obvious biases, let's start!

so shortly after i put up all of those :words: on surveys the ICM one came out. i think this is a great time to talk about the age bands in a bit more detail and give an example of how certain polling companies choice completely changes the outcome of their polling

so let's go with their headline results and i'll get started: https://www.icmunlimited.com/our-work/icm-voting-intentions-poll-general-election-2019-3/

ICM Voting Intentions Poll - General Election 2019 posted:

Con 42% (+3)
Lab 32% (+1)
Lib 13% (-2)
Bre 5% (-3)
so on paper 10% lead right? well i mentioned age bands earlier for a reason. icm are one of the polling companies with 7 distinct age bands:
1: 18-24
2: 25-34
3: 35-44
4: 45-54
5: 55-64
6: 65-74
7: 75+

and yes they try and get an equal amount of respondents per age band and that comically shifts their results. let's look at con and lib by their age bands unaltered:

code:
Age	18-24		25-34		35-44		45-54		55-64		65-74		75+
Con	19%		21%		29%		36%		40%		45%		57%
Lab	49%		43%		30%		21%		18%		17%		11%
now most other pollers go with 6 age bands and have 65+ rather than separating it out to generate the results you want. i consider that to make sense: a unique category each side for "new voters" and "soon to no longer be voters" and 4 evenly split age bands down the line

luckily for us ICM includes a NET: 65+ where we can just grab the % of con/lab voters and apply it to the 65-74 category and only calc up to there to get a comparative poll to other organisations' methodologies:
Net: 65+: 51% to con, 14% to lab

code:
Par	Total	18-24		25-34		35-44		45-54		55-64		65+
Con	32.07%	19%		21%		29%		36%		40%		51%
Lab	29.20%	49%		43%		30%		21%		18%		14%
well 3pts isn't quite the same, and the outcome after their weighting and removing those unlikely to vote?
Con 39.33%
Lab 35.02%

4pts isn't a good for the narrative, and if a pollster has a 75+ category they're really trying to lean on the scales before any explicit weights are applied

so let's run that against the last poll and get their unaltered changes...:

ICM Voting Intentions Poll - General Election 2019 posted:

Con 39% (+2)
Lab 35% (+1)
yup reality isn't quite what icm wants just going by their own data and removing that 75+ category from the equation

Wiggly Wayne DDS fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Nov 18, 2019

Gonzo McFee
Jun 19, 2010
https://twitter.com/rickburin/status/1196494212809854978?s=19

Jesus loving Christ.

https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1196503151060410370?s=19

NinpoEspiritoSanto
Oct 22, 2013





Well that's what you get with a lifetime of Tory run education. I am annoyed I did not see that tweet at the time for this epic burn.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

OwlFancier posted:

Lol @ leftists are actually hitler when hitler was barely cold.
Hitler did massively centralize Bismark's national health and welfare scheme, but also used it to carry out a bunch of terminations of the 'mentally enfeebled' and sterilize a bunch of people.

That said, the NHS also surreptitiously sterilized a bunch of women in the 50s and 60s, often during the process of them terminating a pregnancy, and the free market paradise of California at the time managed to find the funds to do a bit of eugenics.

In conclusion, weaponizing the healthcare system for bad social goals is a land of cunts.

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

RockyB posted:

Well this is an excellent article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/broadband-communism-founding-nhs

quote:

Decommodification – where something we need stops being delivered at the whim of the market and becomes a social entitlement – has always been politically controversial. For students of history (or simply those equipped with a search engine and time to spare), the hysteria greeting John McDonnell’s announcement was a familiar ditty. The launch of the National Health Service in 1948, one of the world’s foremost examples of something being decommodified in the interest of the social good, was met with nothing less than horror by those with vested interests in the private provision of medicine.

Sir Bernard Docker, who sat at the top of private firms Daimler, British Small Arms and Westminster Hospital, and was chairman of the British Hospitals Association, denounced the National Health Service bill as a “mechanism in which the patient will get caught and mangled”, and predicted that the decommodification of heathcare would result in the “mass murder of hospitals”. Led by Charles Hill, secretary of the British Medical Association and the soothing voice of the BBC’s wartime show Radio Doctor, a reported 89% of doctors opposed the government’s plan to bring them into the public sector.

Conservatives took up the hue and cry. David Eccles, the Tory MP for Chippenham, said that the in-housing of medical practitioners was tantamount to an assault on “liberty and order”. Labour’s health minister Nye Bevan was singled out as behaving like “a dictator”, in a riff that was picked up by the rightwing press at the time. The Daily Sketch, a Conservative-supporting tabloid, lost its mind entirely: “The state medical service is part of the socialist plot to convert Great Britain into a National Socialist economy. The doctors’ stand is the first effective revolt of the professional classes against socialist tyranny. There is nothing that Bevan or any other socialist can do about it in the shape of Hitlerian coercion.”

Makes the same points as a lot of us since the broadband announcement. Just, as always, don't read the comments.

It gets worse. If you combine socialised internet with socialised medicine then there will be a plague of dodgy dick pills, for how can socialism deliver a quality product on either front?

I dread to think what additional hues mine would adopt! :monocle::flaccid:

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

I've terrible memories of living in a wimpy "no-fines" cast in place Council house for a few years, every single one of them needs knocking down. Good posts goddamnedtwisto.

ANYTHING YOU SOW
Nov 7, 2009
Thought this tweet thread was a good way of arguing for universal benefits like Labour's free broadband policy:

https://twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1196474118935384064

XMNN
Apr 26, 2008
I am incredibly stupid
I was looking up the debates and this one looks bad


quote:

9 December: Emma Barnett will host a Question Time Under 30 special, focused on an audience made up of young voters. It will be broadcast from 20:30

hmm... the radio presenter who loves billionaires and Hillary Clinton, and a balanced audience handpicked by the question time production team, made up of 50% Tory boys, 30% protogammons and 20% Wes streeting clones, sign me up!

CGI Stardust
Nov 7, 2010


Brexit is but a door,
election time is but a window.

I'll be back

General election: Labour abandons climate change plan for net-zero emissions by 2030

Decision follows opposition from GMB union, which claimed a rapid timeframe would put jobs in jeopardy

i'd been saying relying on unions was risky for green stuff because their duty was prioritising jobs over other concerns, like, for example, the environment and carbon emissions

it's probably wise to wait until the manifesto comes out to confirm, though

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

ANYTHING YOU SOW posted:

Thought this tweet thread was a good way of arguing for universal benefits like Labour's free broadband policy:

https://twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1196474118935384064

Wonk class?

Wonking class.

Wanking class.

Checks out :hmmyes:

Braggart fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Nov 18, 2019

Duckula
Aug 31, 2001

do not resuscitate

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

Bobstar
Feb 8, 2006

KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

ANYTHING YOU SOW posted:

Thought this tweet thread was a good way of arguing for universal benefits like Labour's free broadband policy:

https://twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1196474118935384064

I never understand why giving people £X and taking £X back off them in income tax is "inefficient". Once the giving and taking systems are set up, it's easy!

goddamnedtwisto
Dec 31, 2004

If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you
Fun Shoe

Guavanaut posted:

And the more 'adult' shows always had a "ha ha it's a man in a dress I bet he's a gay" 'joke'. Often with the defence that "well at least we're talking about it." Sure, in the same way that Roy Chubby Brown isn't afraid to talk about race.

I'm a fan of RLB but both seem good.

And the people trying are textbook examples of White Feminism (it's bad) when Diane Abbott is Shadow Home Secretary.

(This is zero part of my preferring RLB over Rayner, because I didn't even know it until today, but "Rayner left secondary school aged 16 whilst pregnant and without any recognised qualifications." is going to lead to some loving charming lines of attack in the press, I can feel it. In fact it might be a point in her favor, because people with lived experience of that don't get enough representation in Parliament, and she's done good work in the Education post. She might do better work continuing in Education or Families and Children and have a leftier leader.)

Thanks :)

I had a feeling last week that they're definitely lining up Long-Bailey for higher things - she seemed to be on telly almost constantly, and was generally killing it.

Now obviously a lot of that is that a lot of the policy announcements were in her area, and it'll be an interesting thing to see if they do the same sort of scheduling in the next few weeks to spotlight a few of the other up-and-comers. I'd certainly like to see that, because there is still that gap between the front bench and the mostly younger, more inexperienced left-wing that came into Parliament in the last few elections, and we need to make sure the melts don't try and ram themselves into the race on an experience/recognition ticket when Corbyn decides to spend more time with his jam.

XMNN
Apr 26, 2008
I am incredibly stupid

Bobstar posted:

I never understand why giving people £X and taking £X back off them in income tax is "inefficient". Once the giving and taking systems are set up, it's easy!

maybe they think it's like thermodynamics and you're going to lose some along the way

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

Bobstar posted:

I never understand why giving people £X and taking £X back off them in income tax is "inefficient". Once the giving and taking systems are set up, it's easy!

It's an argument mostly advanced by people who hate progressive taxation and want it gone, so they try to frame the debate as if it's not an option. The rest of the people arguing for means testing everywhere are those who have been duped by this rhetoric.

ContinuityNewTimes
Dec 30, 2010

Я выдуман напрочь

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

That would be quite an escalation

Bobstar
Feb 8, 2006

KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

XMNN posted:

maybe they think it's like thermodynamics and you're going to lose some along the way

Or maybe they think it comes in a wheelbarrow pushed by a poorly paid duck, who tips it into the money bin, while on the other side another wheelbarrow duck is taking the same amount out.

Braggart posted:

It's an argument mostly advanced by people who hate progressive taxation and want it gone, so they try to frame the debate as if it's not an option. The rest of the people arguing for means testing everywhere are those who have been duped by this rhetoric.


"This transformer is so inefficient, it gives 55V with one wire but takes it back with the other wire!" (it is a plug analogy)

Angepain
Jul 13, 2012

what keeps happening to my clothes
I had just assumed willie rennie had resigned as leader of the scottish lib dems and been replaced with someone else I had forgotten the name of. I had just assumed that had happened. Nope he's still there I guess. look forward to forgetting he exists until the next election

xtothez
Jan 4, 2004


College Slice

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

The chances that they'll try, or that they'll succeed & get away with it? The former is 100%, the latter I'm not so sure.

Wiggly Wayne DDS
Sep 11, 2010



CGI Stardust posted:


General election: Labour abandons climate change plan for net-zero emissions by 2030

Decision follows opposition from GMB union, which claimed a rapid timeframe would put jobs in jeopardy

i'd been saying relying on unions was risky for green stuff because their duty was prioritising jobs over other concerns, like, for example, the environment and carbon emissions

it's probably wise to wait until the manifesto comes out to confirm, though
if you want to see how that policy plays out in practice see Energy Efficient Scotland which targets near zero carbon wherever feasible by 2050 (but mostly there by 2040). it's based off of progressive upgrades and future tech, so getting that in play by 2030 is optimistic. still a more realistic goal than 2030 and getting started down south would be great as central funding is a big limitation

full policy rather than a route map: https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/

goddamnedtwisto
Dec 31, 2004

If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you
Fun Shoe
USPol, but an article about how the leader of a pro-Israel group teamed up with neonazis to get a Jewish socialist group banned from Twitter

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

Honestly I kind of expect trial balloons about that idea from thinkthanks and also the more stupid Tories who say the quiet part out loud. They will try anything if they get desperate enough and think it might work. The important question is whether they would get away with it. I don't think they would be allowed to. The Tories have outstayed their welcome in terms of the establishment indulging every single one of their harebrained schemes. And if it's unlikely to work, they are unlikely to try it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they float the idea just in case ;)

Braggart fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 18, 2019

minema
May 31, 2011
does anyone else spend time meticulously planning what they'd say if boris johnson came round canvassing in their street?

ThomasPaine
Feb 4, 2009

We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

I honestly don't know why they want to win at this point. Long term strategy they would have been far better off deliberately throwing it in 2017 and letting labour deal with squaring the impossible brexit circle. Unless they're worried that a labour government might actually do quite well and end up popular. Imagine that.

goddamnedtwisto
Dec 31, 2004

If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you
Fun Shoe

cakesmith handyman posted:

I've terrible memories of living in a wimpy "no-fines" cast in place Council house for a few years, every single one of them needs knocking down. Good posts goddamnedtwisto.

Ta. The last post is going to be about how these blocks can be (and have been) rehabilitated (I know I promised four but gently caress it). I actually have a lot of affection for LPS and think we really need to revisit it with appropriate quality control if we're going to properly address the lack of housing in this country.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

Given their track record so far, this would end in an overwhelming majority for the Troy party somehow.

goddamnedtwisto
Dec 31, 2004

If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you
Fun Shoe

Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

Eh, don't fall into the (Tory) mindset that election fraud is something that's even vaguely achievable at least at a level likely to change the course of a national election. If nothing else the level of competence that would be required to pull something like that off, if it existed at all in their operation, would lead them to perma-supermajority status without fiddling a single vote.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.


Duckula posted:

What are the chances that the Tories loving rig this election if it looks bad for them? Given everything else they've done it doesn't seem implausable.

Rigging a paper based election is extremely difficult and would require a huge amount of effort. Our voting system is set up in such a way as to defend against practically every possible form of fraud so they might try but the limits of those efforts might end up being 1-2 seats at most.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

Bobstar posted:

I never understand why giving people £X and taking £X back off them in income tax is "inefficient". Once the giving and taking systems are set up, it's easy!
You know what's efficient, massive means testing departments!

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

Angepain posted:

I had just assumed willie rennie had resigned as leader of the scottish lib dems and been replaced with someone else I had forgotten the name of. I had just assumed that had happened. Nope he's still there I guess. look forward to forgetting he exists until the next election

It's a good thing Jo Swinson isn't leader of the Scottish Lib Dems because she might lose her seat!

Braggart
Nov 10, 2011

always thank the rock hider

ThomasPaine posted:

I honestly don't know why they want to win at this point. Long term strategy they would have been far better off deliberately throwing it in 2017 and letting labour deal with squaring the impossible brexit circle. Unless they're worried that a labour government might actually do quite well and end up popular. Imagine that.

Well the smart ones are worried about that, but the dumb ones just believe they are born to rule.

Get back in line, peasants! What do you even think you're going to do with all those pitchforks? :smug:

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Bobby Deluxe posted:

I mean as far as I was aware, it doesn't happen in China. It happens in Japan because they don't have R or L as consonants, they have a consonant sound which is halfway between the tongue position for R and L, so they are not familiar with the difference between the two.*

* This is why Kojima's naming of the La Le Lu Li Lo is a great bilingual joke that nobody ever gets.

You are correct. The L/R pronunciation in Japanese is a sound between the two, we often hear it more as an R, but it's between.

And for those not in the know, "ra ri ru re ro" anglicised as "La Li Lu Le Lo" is the way that Japanese children are taught that row of the syllabary.

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009


hey nice I tweeted this and they retweeted me

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Bardeh
Dec 2, 2004

Fun Shoe
Labour's campaign: lots of aspirational policies that will demonstrably make millions of people's lives better. Clear, hopeful messaging that explains policies and says exactly how they will be implemented and paid for.

Tory campaign: literally just 'get Brexit done', attacks on Corbyn, and vague waffle about lowering taxes

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196507112341409792

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196541086585540608

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196490754325016576

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196460052237967362

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196190777791123456

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1196127863159709696

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