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Look, it's very simple. Poe should have followed orders without demanding an explanation from his superiors, because that's how the military works. Also, Holdo doesn't have to wear a formal uniform and can dress how she likes, because the Resistance isn't a formal military.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:45
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Part of any military leader's job is to inspire morale among their troops, I think it's fair to say she was an objective loving disaster in that regard.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:45
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Asgerd posted:Part of any military leader's job is to inspire morale among their troops, I think it's fair to say she was an objective loving disaster in that regard. She asked for the mutiny in other words.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:48
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Maybe she could have tried anything, anything apart from "you have to do what I say because I outrank you".
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Nov 19, 2019 16:56
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if anyone has seen chernobyl, holdo is basically anatoly dyatlov if the writers of chernobyl thought dyatlov was a hero
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Nov 19, 2019 16:57
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Holdo's attire isn't the issue. If she had shown basic competency in the movie no one would have cared sans some chuds. The problem is she is repeatedly shown to demonstrate terrible judgement and when that happens, people call everything into question about the character because it highlights her failings.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:59
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This does lead to the idea that of course holdo got mutinied, the way she was dressed was just asking for it But seriously if it wasnt Laura dern in the role and was instead , say, sam Niel no one would care to defend the crappy leadership
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Nov 19, 2019 17:01
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euphronius posted:Are you under the impression that Holdo was a Sith or imperial ? Nobody in Episode 8 is Sith or Imperial. If you want to be specific, Holdo is Vice-Admiral of a covert, off-books navy (poorly) funded by a select few members of the New Republic's largest political party, the Republican party. The First Order is the second-largest political party in the New Republic. Although it's an open secret, this covert navy is nonetheless kept secret specifically because it's engaged in anti-democratic subterfuge, carrying out military operations on worlds where the First Order was elected. The mere existence of this covert navy is implicitly illegal and, so, we can argue that Holdo is not part of the New Republic at all. She has effectively renounced her citizenship to do this stuff. Holdo answers only to Leia, whose monarchism is another open secret. "[General Leia] will always be royalty to me," said Tekka. It's in this context that Holdo wears not only the garb of the political class, but a crown. That's what Poe did not expect. Like, sure, he's sexist. But sexism doesn't happen in a vacuum. He's understandably wary of this cult-like elitism. Is this what he signed up for?
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Nov 19, 2019 17:05
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This movie was dumb and I'm not going to watch it again, but can someone explain to me how it is possible that whole resistance is operating from one base, has like 3 ships, and Poe doesn't know how a second-in-command person of resistance looks like? Was Holdo flying around galaxy and just arrived to bail out Leia and her small base? I assume if Poe answers directly to Leia, he should know this Holdo character
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Nov 19, 2019 17:30
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The very basic tension that drives the drama of the Poe/Holdo subplot is whether Holdo is a legitimate authority. The audience is given several reasons to distrust Holdo's authority, like not telling Poe her plan, her aggressive obstruction of any attempt to find out her plan, and then her revelation of the stupidest version of her plan. As the contradictions between her actions and her role as a leader heighten, that increases tension. At the end though, it's revealed that her plan is actually very smart (ignore the fact that her plan got hundreds of people killed for now) and the ultimate resolution is that her authority was legitimate all along, the reasons to doubt her were silly, and that it would have been better to defer to her authority from the start. The problem is that this conclusion is incorrect. It's not just incorrect as a matter of principle, but it's also incorrect in the Star Wars context, where rejecting illegitimate authority is the most basic through-line throughout the entire series, and it's incorrect within The Last Jedi itself. The whole thing with Luke is that he lost legitimacy as a leader of the Jedi and in the Republic when he plotted to kill his nephew. His hermitage is his way of holding himself accountable for his errors. There are problems with this storyline (like conflating this effort to hold himself accountable with a rejection of political engagement entirely), but the core idea of a corrupted leader works. The real question is what makes Holdo a legitimate leader and Poe or Luke illegitimate? Luke plotted to kill his nephew but ultimately didn't, while Holdo's plan and treatment of Poe led to the death of hundreds. Poe has the respect of many followers and led several audacious military victories (we're told), making his authority just as legitimate as Holdo's. The only real source of Holdo's legitimacy is Leia's say-so. It's only when Leia's in a coma that Holdo's authority erodes, and it's her interference at the end that tells us the "correct" leader. Leia's authority, in turn, comes from the Republic, but as SMG points out we know very little about the Republic. We know it condoned child slavery and that it didn't do anything about the First Order. Of course, in reality Leia's authority comes from the fact that she was in several much-loved movies from the seventies and eighties, and The Last Jedi does very little on its own to invest her or Holdo with much more reason to believe in their legitimacy. That means their intended message of "respect authority" just doesn't sell.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:31
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She wasn’t second in command until the flag ship deck was blown up by Ren et al
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Nov 19, 2019 17:32
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I think the movie is supposed to take place like 10 minutes after the end of the last one, so Holdo is a resistance admiral who was fortunatete not to be in the fleet as it was destroyed by the super death star in the first one who must have recently joined the rest of the remaining fleet
John Wick of Dogs fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 17:33
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Leia didn’t put Holdo in command. Luke didn’t plot to kill Ren
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Nov 19, 2019 17:33
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euphronius posted:Jedi general Owen Lars ???? That was a totally a possibility until the prequels ruined Lars and made him some rando who didn't even know Anakin at all.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:38
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I still don't get why the resistance was so small. The first order blew up 4 planets, literally every single living being alive would be pissed or afraid after that, and a lot of that fear would be gone after that weapon was destroyed. There should be a giant resistance in every single star system and habitable area, protests and insurrection everywhere. Instead it's just what, 4 ships? Hundreds of planets, thousands of different species, and nobody cares that the white supremacists will try to kill you with impunity? That's insanely dumb
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Nov 19, 2019 17:38
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Too scared to do anything because of that superweapon What? The people who are asking us to join destroyed that superweapon? It's just regular ships now? Eh well let's see how this plays out
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Nov 19, 2019 17:40
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Terror Sweat posted:I still don't get why the resistance was so small. The first order blew up 4 planets, literally every single living being alive would be pissed or afraid after that, and a lot of that fear would be gone after that weapon was destroyed. There should be a giant resistance in every single star system and habitable area, protests and insurrection everywhere. Instead it's just what, 4 ships? Hundreds of planets, thousands of different species, and nobody cares that the white supremacists will try to kill you with impunity? That's insanely dumb Everyone else was conquered and/or submitted to the first order off screen. I know people have trouble with this because it's insanely stupid but it is literally the first thing stated in the opening crawl
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Nov 19, 2019 17:45
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Terror Sweat posted:I still don't get why the resistance was so small. The first order blew up 4 planets, literally every single living being alive would be pissed or afraid after that, and a lot of that fear would be gone after that weapon was destroyed. There should be a giant resistance in every single star system and habitable area, protests and insurrection everywhere. Instead it's just what, 4 ships? Hundreds of planets, thousands of different species, and nobody cares that the white supremacists will try to kill you with impunity? That's insanely dumb That’s the entire point of the movie imho: the resistance is not popular. Why ? The movie gives a few answers : it’s a rebellion led by a Queen to reestablish or establish a liberal monarchy and its concerned more with fighting against the FO rather than fighting for the forgotten people. And they don’t have any Jedi. Summarizing: it doesn’t inspire hope and failed. The new one, led by Rey should not do those things and be something different It looks like JJ abrams totally ignores all of this in 9 and does a comic book super hero mash up but we will see
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Nov 19, 2019 17:45
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mastershakeman posted:This does lead to the idea that of course holdo got mutinied, the way she was dressed was just asking for it Hey, commanding a battle while wearing an impractical evening gown isn't a gendered thing in Star Wars.   edit: although, I guess Snoke got mutinied too... Asgerd fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 17:46
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I knew TLJ was going to suck the moment they opened with that Monty Python phonecall sketch.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:47
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I have major problems with the snoke golden bathrobe now that we know he was just palpatine all along. I feel it is strongly established that sheev's evil wizard fashion is so much less tacky and more on point than that
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Nov 19, 2019 17:48
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Terror Sweat posted:I still don't get why the resistance was so small. The first order blew up 4 planets, literally every single living being alive would be pissed or afraid after that, and a lot of that fear would be gone after that weapon was destroyed. There should be a giant resistance in every single star system and habitable area, protests and insurrection everywhere. The question kinda answers itself: "The Resistance" is not the actual resistance. There are undoubtedly plenty of people against the First Order, but The Resistance is just this tiny, lovely little militia trying to bring back the rule of kings. They don't stand for anything good, and nobody likes them. TLJ even has dialogue to the effect that there are plenty of legitimate rebels out there - but, when Leia asks if she can join, the answer is an unanimous "no, eat poo poo". SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 17:49
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mastershakeman posted:This does lead to the idea that of course holdo got mutinied, the way she was dressed was just asking for it Sam Neill would lead them to a much more interesting and eye-optional place, and who could find fault with that?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:02
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I just realized the counterpoint to Leia/poe/holdo is picard/riker/Jellico, where riker doesn't trust this new guy who is a dick until Jellico sits him down and explains his command philosophy (as I vaguely remember it, it's been 20 years since I've seen chain of command )
mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 18:13
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Jellico, from CATS?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:16
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I think the best way for all this to work out is that they run out of time to make the ending of star wars 9, then just photoshop rey's face onto the main cat from Cats and use that film's ending
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Nov 19, 2019 18:18
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But has Han Solo ever punched a giant cat alien?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:21
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Asgerd posted:But has Han Solo ever punched a giant cat alien? Kirk has, making him superior to Solo.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:27
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Designing C-3PO to be afraid of everything, dooming him to a life of terror and missed opportunities, was an early sign of Anakin's psychopathy.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:41
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SimonCat posted:Kirk has, making him superior to Solo. Pfft but he never punched a giant otter
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Nov 19, 2019 18:42
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The moral of the last Star Wars is that rebels are scum.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:16
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I can't find a YouTube link for it, but this TV spot has some new shots. https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1196842344961544198 thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 19:24
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Lol at the red super glue
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Nov 19, 2019 19:38
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Every trailer for this has Rey wielding her lightsaber in a different environment. It really feels like there was a general memo for "Moar lightsaber!" Which lines up with what I would expect Disney executives to take away as the problem with the last film. TerminalRaptor fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 19:39
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Rey, master of aggressive negotiation
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Nov 19, 2019 19:43
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Asgerd posted:I just can't get over the moral of Poe's story being "just shut up and do as you're told, don't ask questions, your bosses know what they're doing and you have no right to an explanation". Welcome to the military. Do you think people just constantly ask superior officers to justify their orders? That's not how a chain of command works.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:52
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Kylo. Buddy. Just buy a new loving helmet.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:52
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banned from Starbucks posted:Welcome to the military. Do you think people just constantly ask superior officers to justify their orders? That's not how a chain of command works. That’s not wrong, but when you’re looking at a trilogy with ~7 hours of screen time to tell its story, it’s kind of a weird topic to devote 30 minutes to.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:54
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She was more concerned about moving that plot forward than she was being a well-written character
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Nov 19, 2019 19:59
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banned from Starbucks posted:Welcome to the military. Do you think people just constantly ask superior officers to justify their orders? That's not how a chain of command works. This is a rebellion, isn't it? They rebel.
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Nov 19, 2019 19:59
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