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Ataxerxes posted:There was the Battle of Lissa, where the Austrian Navy beat Italians with ramming attacks, partially due to this very issue. There is an awesome painting of the Austrian admiral Tegethoff commanding a ramming attack on his flagship: Incredibly dumb question time : This is the Austro-Hungarian Navy, right? It's always bothered me when people talk about the Austrian Navy when, you know, it's super landlocked.
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Nov 19, 2019 16:55
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Xiahou Dun posted:Incredibly dumb question time : The Austrian empire included Croatia in this period.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is the Austro-Hungarian Navy, right? Yes. 
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Nov 19, 2019 17:19
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Xiahou Dun posted:Incredibly dumb question time : The Navy of the Austrian Empire, yes, which was not landlocked at the time, since it included for example a chunk of Italy which was rather the point of contention. Hungarians didn't get equal billing til the next year (and promptly started trying to Magyarise all the other nationalities in their part of the Empire).
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Nov 19, 2019 17:19
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Cessna posted:I can see one gun, or a few guns, failing to load shot, but it is strange to think a whole broadside would fail to do so. Don't they have a gunnery officer calling the actions? Like, clean, charge, wad, shot, fire? If the officer skipped a step then that could throw everyone off.
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Nov 19, 2019 17:34
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Slovenia, Pola, and Dalmatia are the Empire of Austria part not the Kingdom of Hungary part even after 1867
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Nov 19, 2019 17:52
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Don't they have a gunnery officer calling the actions? Like, clean, charge, wad, shot, fire? If the officer skipped a step then that could throw everyone off. I don't know Austro-Hungarian techniques of the 19th century, to be sure. From what I know of the US Civil War Navy (which was roughly contemporary) they'd carefully prepare their first broadside, but after that it was largely "load and fire as fast and straight as you can." There wasn't some sort of regimented drill ("Pick up - SPONGE!" "One, two, three!") as this was impossible in the chaos and noise of battle. Edit: Let me clarify - there WAS drill, of course, but that was done on the basis of individual guns. There wasn't an way to practically synchronize all steps of the loading and firing drill of an entire broadside in the middle of a frantic battle. If they were at long range and taking very deliberate shots they might do this, but I don't think the conditions of that stage of Lissa - a hard-fought battle, ship about to ram - would make it possible for a single officer to conduct ship-wide drill. Cessna fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 17:54
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The 1888 drawing of Ancona shows a four gun broadside and at least one gun was disabled during the battle so I guess it's possible that they didn't correctly load 2-3 guns.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:13
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What are the rules for addressing a person by their rank when their rank is unwieldy? Obviously the gold standard for this seems to be German ranks but I gather making people stop and address you as Obersturmbannführer every time was part of the Nazi's whole thing. But like for an LTC, are there rules or custom governing when are you allowed to address them as "colonel" rather than "lieutenant colonel". Would a general ever be addressed by his full rank? What about the higher NCO ranks (i.e.Mastery Gunnery Sergeant, Command Chief Master Sergeant, Command Sergeant Major)?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:24
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zoux posted:What are the rules for addressing a person by their rank when their rank is unwieldy? Obviously the gold standard for this seems to be German ranks but I gather making people stop and address you as Obersturmbannführer every time was part of the Nazi's whole thing. But like for an LTC, are there rules or custom governing when are you allowed to address them as "colonel" rather than "lieutenant colonel". Would a general ever be addressed by his full rank? What about the higher NCO ranks (i.e.Mastery Gunnery Sergeant, Command Chief Master Sergeant, Command Sergeant Major)? Depends. In the US military, there's an "official" shortening that is used. Rule of thumb is that for the army and air force, outside of formal situations, they'll just say sergeant for anything above E-5, everything above O-7 is a general, an Air Force E-9 is a Chief and an O-5 is a colonel. More informally, in the Air Force, ranks will be further shortened to differentiate all the different ranks (tech for technical sergeant, senior for senior master sergeant, first sergeant is called the shirt etc.) The Navy does its own thing because they're special and Marines in my experience get grumpy if a non-Marine calls them anything but their actual rank.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:31
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whats unwieldy about master bosun's chief mate 3rd class
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Nov 19, 2019 18:35
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Cessna posted:Ramming was also quite popular in the US Civil War. Did much ramming happen in it?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:35
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USMC practice, from a former NCO's perspective: "Sir" always works for officers. I'd never say "yes Lieutenant Colonel," it sounds - off. Wrong. "Sir, yes sir" if it's more formal. For top-level NCOs, it depends on how well you know them and the circumstances of the encounter. "yes Staffsergeant" (sounds like one word) or "yes Gunny" if you know them, but it is spoken more formally and deliberately if you don't. ("yes, Gunnery Sergeant.") Master/Master Gunnery Sergeants are "yes Top/Master Guns" if you know them and they like you, full titles if you don't know them or if they're yelling. It's "yes First Sergeant" or "yes Sergeant Major" as they're always mad at you. If you're a peer you call them by rank or rank and last name in uniform depending on the formality of the occasion. (Out of uniform it's - well, it depends. Some guys I knew for years without knowing their first name. Others I was on a first name basis with immediately.) If you outrank them you call them by rank and last name if you're chewing them out, last name if you're being friendly. Cessna fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 18:37
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bewbies posted:whats unwieldy about master bosun's chief mate 3rd class How smoked would you get if you started calling all bosuns "boat swains" Pretty much every modern rank was named and invented by either the French or Prussian armies, correct? Or do some go back further? sullat posted:Civilians aren't required to follow the military's unwieldy and arcane rules of address. Well, what put this question in my mind was the hearings today where one of the congressmen addressed Vindman as "Mr. Vindman" and he replied "It's Lt. Colonel Vindman, please". I've always kind of had a curiosity for formal terms of military address and communication (Captain Jones sends his complements and requests at Captain Smith's pleasure to please begin maneuvers to come alongside and etc.) and I was wondering if there was modern etiquette in this regard, and how it's done in current and past militaries. zoux fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 18:37
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zoux posted:What are the rules for addressing a person by their rank when their rank is unwieldy? Obviously the gold standard for this seems to be German ranks but I gather making people stop and address you as Obersturmbannführer every time was part of the Nazi's whole thing. But like for an LTC, are there rules or custom governing when are you allowed to address them as "colonel" rather than "lieutenant colonel". Would a general ever be addressed by his full rank? What about the higher NCO ranks (i.e.Mastery Gunnery Sergeant, Command Chief Master Sergeant, Command Sergeant Major)? Civilians aren't required to follow the military's unwieldy and arcane rules of address.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:37
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Don Gato posted:The Navy does its own thing because they're special and Marines in my experience get grumpy if a non-Marine calls them anything but their actual rank. This entirely depends on how well they know you and like you.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:38
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ChubbyChecker posted:Did much ramming happen in it? The US Civil War? Quite a bit.  
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Nov 19, 2019 18:40
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Also something the air force does is that NCOs are also referred to as sir/ma'am, not just officers. It is a fun culture shock when people from other branches have to deal with junior enlisted for the first time.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:42
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sullat posted:Civilians aren't required to follow the military's unwieldy and arcane rules of address. Then of course you are expected to know the arcane rules of addressing civilians, like if a German has a double doctorate then you better call them as Herr or Frau(lein) Doktor Doktor!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_honorifics
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Nov 19, 2019 18:43
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My Marine perspective. Lower rank, call them by their last name or shortened rank (first class instead of gunners mate first class / gunny instead of gunnery sergeant). Lot of officers do first name when speaking to junior officers. Higher rank, just sir/ma’am if an officer, shortened rank if enlisted and you’re not in a formal situation (probably not good to call the master sergeant “top” at your court martial) Usually junior ranks will just use names amongst each other since they’re so quick to promote (I wouldn’t expect a PFC to say aye aye Lance Corporal every time but I’ll clamp down on Corporals being too buddy buddy with juniors) and generally hang out after work. Gunnery sergeant=gunny Master sergeant=top Master gunnery sergeant= master guns FastestGunAlive fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 18:43
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Nenonen posted:Then of course you are expected to know the arcane rules of addressing civilians, like if a German has a double doctorate then you better call them as Herr or Frau(lein) Doktor Doktor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoe24aSvLtw&t=35s
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Nov 19, 2019 18:44
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ChubbyChecker posted:Did much ramming happen in it? pretty much everything that could be converted into a ram got converted into a ram. they had whole fleets of rams.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:45
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bewbies posted:pretty much everything that could be converted into a ram got converted into a ram. to separate the sheep from the floats?
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Nov 19, 2019 18:55
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"ranking member, it's lt. col. vindman." legend
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Nov 19, 2019 19:29
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zoux posted:What are the rules for addressing a person by their rank when their rank is unwieldy? Obviously the gold standard for this seems to be German ranks but I gather making people stop and address you as Obersturmbannführer every time was part of the Nazi's whole thing. But like for an LTC, are there rules or custom governing when are you allowed to address them as "colonel" rather than "lieutenant colonel". Would a general ever be addressed by his full rank? What about the higher NCO ranks (i.e.Mastery Gunnery Sergeant, Command Chief Master Sergeant, Command Sergeant Major)? To give a German example, while the Captain-equivalent rank in the Bundesmarine is "Kapitänsleutnant", no-one actually says that. You're supposed to call your Captain a "Kaleu".
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Nov 19, 2019 19:58
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Libluini posted:To give a German example, while the Captain-equivalent rank in the Bundesmarine is "Kapitänsleutnant", no-one actually says that. You're supposed to call your Captain a "Kaleu". Is stuff like this in a manual or is it just learned tradition
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Nov 19, 2019 20:23
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Nenonen posted:Then of course you are expected to know the arcane rules of addressing civilians, like if a German has a double doctorate then you better call them as Herr or Frau(lein) Doktor Doktor! I worked for some time for a Finnish company that had bought a German one. The Germans sent instructions to our Service Desk on how to adress which of their employees. Some higher-up in Finland went "screw this, we bought them, they didn't buy us, never mind all this" and instructed the Service Desk just to call everyone by their names. This must have mightily pissed of some German folks.
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Nov 19, 2019 20:38
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The 1888 drawing of Ancona shows a four gun broadside and at least one gun was disabled during the battle so I guess it's possible that they didn't correctly load 2-3 guns. Primary and secondary batteries remember
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Nov 19, 2019 21:22
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feedmegin posted:The Navy of the Austrian Empire, yes, which was not landlocked at the time, since it included for example a chunk of Italy which was rather the point of contention. Hungarians didn't get equal billing til the next year (and promptly started trying to Magyarise all the other nationalities in their part of the Empire). The records got spread around quite a bit, too. I had a friend in grad school who worked on the Austro-Hungarian Navy and he ended up spending a lot of time in Prague. I forget the details, but IIRC it had to do with them spreading ministry offices around due to internal politics with the result that a lot of different countries inherited some pretty oddball records.
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Nov 19, 2019 21:31
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feedmegin posted:Primary and secondary batteries remember edit: nm
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Nov 19, 2019 21:45
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zoux posted:Is stuff like this in a manual or is it just learned tradition I'm fairly sure it's the kind of thing you don't find in manuals, not even in German ones, but your career will be cut very short if you're not a fast learner about stuff like this. Let's go with oral tradition on this one, though with our number of Dienstvorschriften I can't really guarantee that stuff we had to learn the hard way wasn't hidden away in some obscure book. Still, remember the Bundeswehr is (or was, up to 2006 at least when I left the service) traditional enough that we still "updated" our Dienstvorschriften by manually cutting and pasting tiny pieces of paper, using advanced tools like scissors and glue, so tradition is kind of important for us anyway. We do things the old way, and we do things the slow way -and we like it.  Edit: Another thing I just remembered, lower ranks (everything below corporal-equivalent) tend to be shortened. No-one is always saying stuff like "Herr Oberstabsgefreiter, wie geht es Ihnen heute?" constantly, especially if you drop enough stripes until you end up in what I call the reasonable region of enlisted soldiers like Obergefreiter (two stripes, shortened to "OG") or Hauptgefreiter (three stripes, shortened to "HG") Libluini fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 22:02
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Libluini posted:I'm fairly sure it's the kind of thing you don't find in manuals, not even in German ones, but your career will be cut very short if you're not a fast learner about stuff like this. How deep is your dueling scar
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Nov 19, 2019 22:08
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Dienstvorschrift has wiki articles in german, russian, kazakh, and ukrainian only.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Dienstvorschrift Very nice.
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Nov 19, 2019 22:50
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zoux posted:How deep is your dueling scar
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Nov 19, 2019 23:02
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Cyrano4747 posted:The records got spread around quite a bit, too. I had a friend in grad school who worked on the Austro-Hungarian Navy and he ended up spending a lot of time in Prague. I forget the details, but IIRC it had to do with them spreading ministry offices around due to internal politics with the result that a lot of different countries inherited some pretty oddball records. Are those records in Czech? I can imagine trying to study an empire as diverse as the Austrian (and later Austro-Hungarian) to be a huge pain if those records were kept in different languages. I assume German was used De jure?
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Nov 19, 2019 23:19
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So I was randomly reading the wikipedia page on the Yamato today (long chain of events that started with me being recommended a color video of footage of the battleship Nagato) and during an explanation of its sinking this comment was made:quote:...many of the ship's crew who didn't go down with the vessel were killed by strafing aircraft as they swam in the oily water... Again - wikipedia... but how true is this? I didn't think it was a practice of American naval pilots to strafe surviving crew so I figured I'd ask.
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Nov 19, 2019 23:36
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Are those records in Czech? I can imagine trying to study an empire as diverse as the Austrian (and later Austro-Hungarian) to be a huge pain if those records were kept in different languages. I assume German was used De jure? I don't know what his records were in but I THINK that they were in German. The guy was a linguistic prodigy. He spoke German at near-native fluency and was fluent enough in Czech and Russian to speak and write well*, plus he had enough Polish and Romanian to do archival research or have a conversation in a bar. *say, in a formal setting, not drunkenly bullshititng your way through a sentence when you don't know a couple important words in a bar.
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Nov 20, 2019 00:00
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Cessna posted:The US Civil War? Quite a bit. If you're an unarmored steamship and you get jumped by an ironclad, I imagine trying to ram it is your best bet. Either that or running, but a side or paddle wheeler probably wasn't going to outrun anything.
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Nov 20, 2019 00:06
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Ice Fist posted:I didn't think it was a practice of American naval pilots to strafe surviving crew Sorry, no.
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Nov 20, 2019 00:08
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