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Bottom Liner posted:I think it complicates an otherwise great design of majority scoring that other games do much better (Startups, Biblios, etc). When teaching the game people always really struggle with the path laying and scoring rules. Again, I still like Arboretum, but I think it’s pretty overrated due to its hype after being out of print so long. I'm with you on Arboretum. The game just makes me want to play a Knizia instead. It's positive reception might be connected to the undeniably beatiful artwork.
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Nov 20, 2019 21:41
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Fellis posted:What do you find condescending about his bio? I mean he does talk about avoiding people who have different tastes from him. quote:I do not play party games and will generally only play family or gateway games under protest. My preference is to simply avoid those games and somewhat even the people who play them He also says how: Players should always make the best plays and he engineers it so their best plays allow him to win. (Which is a logical fallacy since it is in their best interest to win, not him. :gotem:) This is def a tone to the writing that comes from a place of arrogance. He doesn't just write opinion as fact he writes how you are a fool if you do not agree. And it's easy to read that arrogance as condescending. quote:There is no reason to play a game which contains no questions as there's nothing left in that part of the problem-space which isn't understood. ... Why bother having a conversation when everybody already knows what everybody else is going to say?
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Nov 20, 2019 21:54
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Every time clearclaw comes up in this thread I feel obliged to point out that he and his friends taught me to play 18XX, and he comes off exactly the same online as he does in person.
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Nov 20, 2019 21:58
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SoftNum posted:He doesn't just write opinion as fact he writes how you are a fool if you do not agree. Except he's very explicit that he is writing subjective opinions??? My tastes clearly diverge quite a bit from his but whatever, him describing his tastes in detail is no skin off my back.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:02
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SoftNum posted:He also says how: Players should always make the best plays and he engineers it so their best plays allow him to win. (Which is a logical fallacy since it is in their best interest to win, not him. :gotem:) That's a matter of his preference for games that are heavily about partial incentives, not him literally bullying people into only doing things that help him. I can't tell if you're being purposefully obtuse here or not, but that's obviously what he's referring to. And imo he's completely right to make sure that everyone going into a game has similar mindsets regarding the game, not doing so would be a disservice to everyone at the table.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:10
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I had zero opinions about Arboretum before finding a dusty copy of the original after the reprint came out but naw my dudes, it's right alongside Battle Line as a good abstract card game with bonus points because it's multiplayer. Can't say I've had any issues teaching it to various diverse players.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:32
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Straight White Shark posted:Except he's very explicit that he is writing subjective opinions??? I'm not really sure how that applies? Opinion can still be condescending. EDIT: To be clear I guess, "Writing opinion as fact" is a fine persuasive argument technique; but I'm explaining that this doesn't explain his tone (with examples) SoftNum fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 22:39
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He's just a guy who thinks his opinions are defined by his intelligence. TBH he seems like a smart guy but even smart guys can have dumb beliefs or crippling personality flaws that makes them say dumb poo poo. Shouldn't let it get your riled up.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:43
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Chill la Chill posted:There definitely is. I've found myself these past couple years shying away from the complexity of most newer euros even though I've kept a single Lacerda game (Lisboa) due to the theme and stupid desire for a convoluted Concordia. But a lot of these newer euros feature much more complexity for no real benefit. The simple but compelling style of Knizia and company are gone. It doesn't boost kickstarters that look impressive with 50 tracks, worker placement (with a twist!), and dizzying mechanics promising to give you depth of play. I adore Gaia Project and Trajan's subtlety and timing game, but I recognize these are good examples of the types of euros I just scoffed at. I think the complexity of many of Lacerda's designs is overstated. They might have fiddly rules, but a game like The Gallerist basically just has "make numbers go up" at its core. With that in mind, I think it actually does have a very good depth to complexity ratio. quote:It also doesn't help that the heaviness rating is interpreted as both "depth" and "complexity" in different mixtures for people. I really wish it split it into two, but many people won't even bother rating anything but a thumbs up/down, a 10/1. One of those comments compared it to film buffs and I think there's a real connection there. However, I think film buffs look for more depth than complexity. Period dramas and arthouse films don't have the technical complexity as your average Michael Bay or superhero film with 50 jump cuts, eyes wandering to focus everywhere, and pyrotechnics and special effects all over the place. Arguably, the rise in mechanically complex games means BGG viewers want more of the latter. This is an insightful comparison, though I don't know if I agree. The Michael Bay films of board games feels likes it would be Fireball Island or Mouse Trap, where the engineering of the game is very complex but the act of playing it is simple and shallow. Your average over-complicated Euro would be more like a Christopher Nolan movie, where they require a lot of attention to enjoy but they don't have especially challenging themes. al-azad posted:I had zero opinions about Arboretum before finding a dusty copy of the original after the reprint came out but naw my dudes, it's right alongside Battle Line as a good abstract card game with bonus points because it's multiplayer. Hear hear! My only complaint about Arboretum is that it's too short. I think it has a great balance between the fun, expressive part of the game (building the arboretum) and the painful, strategic trade-off part (discarding cards). Having the dual scoring does a great job of emphasizing how well you did at both halves.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:47
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I kinda respect clearclaw for not doing the 'aw shucks, i just like the really complex games because im such a weirdo XD i'm sure that the games you like are fun too!!!' dance. He still seems like he'd be the kind of person who would argue after the game that you only beat him because a third party played suboptimally.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:50
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Rad Valtar posted:I will have to grab it next time I trade or buy something because it always looked interesting and I like Rosenberg designs but that one issue concerned me. Yeah, the issue feels not like an issue at all. During my solo campaign I got like 37-35-39 points and never have the late c buildings been a problem. The ressource and gold engines are much more important. I really like nusfjord and the playtime compared to the complexity feels just right.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:03
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Fellis posted:I’ve only heard that criticism from people who disagree with him, so I still think it is projecting. Being terse and using (defined) jargon is a component of good technical writing. Sure maybe not the most Softnum covered the arrogance bit which is how it comes across. I do agree with his tastes and reasoning but he’s also someone I would never want to play with: ketchup vs catsup posted:Every time clearclaw comes up in this thread I feel obliged to point out that he and his friends taught me to play 18XX, and he comes off exactly the same online as he does in person. Mostly because I’ve tried playing with people like this and yeah no thanks.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:26
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I often agree with clearclaw's tastes and analysis but he definitely savours the bouquet of his own farts
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Nov 21, 2019 00:28
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CommonShore posted:I often agree with clearclaw's tastes and analysis but he definitely savours the bouquet of his own farts Yup
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Nov 21, 2019 00:44
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The fall Tokyo game market is just around the corner. I haven’t been following closely as to what games to look out for, but if anyone knows of any, could you list them? Thanks. Rumble nation and the new Saashi and Saashi game about remembering a trip are the only things I know of.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:09
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Startups is Arboretum but quicker and with less rules overhead. Still has that same core of drawing, playing, and hiding things in your hand that determines end game scoring.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:28
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Hobby discussions will always tend toward depth/complexity. In photography no one cares about a camera unless it costs at least $2,000 and don’t you dare talk about your point and shoot or even worse your smartphone camera. Rose hobbyists care about the latest patented rose, not the common white iceberg rose. Stamp/coin collectors don’t care about common stamps or coins. People come to discuss what no one else is interested in nearly by definition. I think the boardgame hobby does a better job than most to accommodate a multitude of interest levels.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:59
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My opinion is that anyone who disagrees with my opinion is a dumb idiot.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:16
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Gilgameshback posted:What is the deal with Clearclaw? Is he a household name? All I know about him is that he has a condescending 25,000 word bio on his BGG page and that he has very strong opinions about poker chips. He's a very prolific poster on BGG and elsewhere about 18xx and other perfect information games. He's been in the scene for a long time and if you spend any time looking at strategies for 1830 and friends you'll probably run into one of his posts sooner or later. They're really useful and full of insight, but he's got a case of "Board Games are Very Important" syndrome.
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Nov 21, 2019 06:31
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Anytime before he starts talking about how interesting Adolf Hitler would be to talk to* would be a good time to peace out. *Actual thing that happened
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Nov 21, 2019 07:05
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On a purely objective basis of course, like he's doing PhD work on how the brains of reality-distorting narcissists who managed to win a power lottery work, or something. These galaxy brain types never find it even remotely suspicious that there just happens to be a nearly 1:1 overlap of "their personal interests & opinions" and "objective worth and reality" and god forbid they wonder for a moment whether that's maybe a wee bit suspicious and self-serving.
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Nov 21, 2019 07:10
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Is Irish Gauge worth owning if you already have Chex?
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Nov 21, 2019 07:51
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The Eyes Have It posted:Anytime before he starts talking about how interesting Adolf Hitler would be to talk to* would be a good time to peace out. That wasn't him, lol, it was Tresham. I know people don't like him or disagree with him or whatever, and I do on a bunch of things, but you don't have to make things up. taser rates fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 08:41
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Well poo poo, thanks for pointing that out because that's a very serious (and deeply embarrassing) error on my part. Somehow that got mixed up in my head and I deeply regret that, and thanks for the heads up.
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Nov 21, 2019 08:58
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Yeah that was Tresham being interviewed by the Heavy Cardboard guy. His answer to "best dinner party guest" was Adolf, and the interview moved swiftly on. There's probably a BGG thread about it in which Clearclaw probably posted, so we can find out his stance on dinner with Hitler.
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Nov 21, 2019 10:44
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GrandpaPants posted:Is Irish Gauge worth owning if you already have Chex? IG caves out it's own space. Companies not having treasuries makes things a lot simpler, and the random draw for dividends obviously brings new elements to the gameplay. I mean, this is assuming you are getting a lot of Chex played, and want a simpler version. If nobody wants to play games with trains and shares, I wouldn't bother personally.
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Nov 21, 2019 10:49
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Mr. Squishy posted:Yeah that was Tresham being interviewed by the Heavy Cardboard guy. His answer to "best dinner party guest" was Adolf, and the interview moved swiftly on. There's probably a BGG thread about it in which Clearclaw probably posted, so we can find out his stance on dinner with Hitler. "Clearclaw" posted:Why? He was apparently a man of strong opinions, of some learning, thought and observation (and a not entirely terrible watercolourist). The conclusions he came to may have been untoward, but most people with the properties in the first sentence are also interesting people.
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Nov 21, 2019 11:46
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Ah that's ok then, he just wanted to debate Hitler and defeat him with FACTS and LOGIC no doubt. Also lol at Hitler being somewhat untoward. Train games are a route into mental degeneracy. Aramoro fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 11:49
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Ravendas posted:Startups is Arboretum but quicker and with less rules overhead. Still has that same core of drawing, playing, and hiding things in your hand that determines end game scoring. How mean is Startups? I've considered getting Arboretum but I've heard it's super loving mean, and I don't know if my crew would be up for it.
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Nov 21, 2019 11:55
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Magnetic North posted:How mean is Startups? I've considered getting Arboretum but I've heard it's super loving mean, and I don't know if my crew would be up for it. It’s much faster and has cute graphics which removes much of the sting. Both games aren’t that mean considering how you’re all building your tableau regardless of what anyone else is doing. It’s just that the tableau night not be worth as much as you thought. But they’re not destructive games full of aggression, which is what many people tend to understand by “mean games.”
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Nov 21, 2019 13:26
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It never felt mean to me. Mean in the sense of seeing someone building a sandcastle and you go over there and kick it and they can't stop you because you both move one space a turn and you started first. The closest it comes is when you get the anti-monopoly token in one of the large companies and then someone else just starts hoovering up a steady stream of what should be your shares. But I find it hard to imagine someone feeling personally got at by that. Worst thing about it is that at higher player counts it becomes kinda an incoherent luck fest. Like I enjoy it still but I know someone who hates it because their first game was at 6, and they just saw the game as hope you topdeck something useful.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:00
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Magnetic North posted:How mean is Startups? I've considered getting Arboretum but I've heard it's super loving mean, and I don't know if my crew would be up for it. Arboretum feels more mean because you have a hand of seven cards, and you're balancing which ones give you points, and which one deny other players points. Startups has a hand of three cards, and it's less denying others points, and more 'hoping you have more' than others. More bluffing in Startups, less direct screwing than Arboretum. It also helps that 5 cards get burned every game in Startups, so no one can have perfect information. Maybe the set of 5 cards only has 3, so your 2 cards in it is actually a solid majority instead of a possible minority? Arboretum always has 8 of every suit, so you know that if you don't have one of the cards in your preferred suit, it's either in the deck or in an opponents hand. Startups also takes like a third of the time in my experience, so having a bad game isn't so much of a loss. We usually play 3-4 Startups games in a row compared to a single Arboretum game.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:15
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Ravendas posted:
Wait, I think I've played this game like five times and never done this rule. No idea how I missed it, gonna wildly change things. Also Startups, I've found, is much meaner than Arboretum because you'll put out some shares and then someone will just start putting out more than you and there's nothing you can do. At least with Arboretum, the hand size is large enough that all the mean-ness usually comes at the end, when you end up denying people some points, and then the game is done.
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Nov 21, 2019 14:47
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I am going to Pax Unplugged this year. My first time at a board game convention. I'm going with a group of friends so we're good on people to play with. My question is-- should I be bringing my own games to play or is their library usually sufficient?
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Nov 21, 2019 14:58
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Morpheus posted:Wait, I think I've played this game like five times and never done this rule. No idea how I missed it, gonna wildly change things. The backs of the cards themselves have the setup rules. It has something like X5, (hand)3. Burn five, everyone gets three. Just like the $1 tokens have a tiny ten on them. Everyone gets ten. It's neat. Edit: It also has an amazing stop motion animation teach of how to play. Burn 5 cards is around 2:30 in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne3ktIPWoX0 Ravendas fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 15:15
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Megasabin posted:I am going to Pax Unplugged this year. My first time at a board game convention. I'm going with a group of friends so we're good on people to play with. My question is-- should I be bringing my own games to play or is their library usually sufficient? Normally enough people have taken their collection you can probably find a game, but if you really want to play whatever copy and don't mind lugging it around, take a few. Morpheus posted:Wait, I think I've played this game like five times and never done this rule. No idea how I missed it, gonna wildly change things. This is indefensible. All the rules you need are right there on the back of every card!    e:fb setting up my dramatic zoom
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Nov 21, 2019 15:19
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The dramatic zoom helps! I thought it was a really useful thing, to just print the rules on the items themselves. There are so many games we have to keep in our heads, little setup reminders on the components themselves are great.
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Nov 21, 2019 15:37
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Ahhhh poo poo. That's what I get for reading the rules once, and thinking 'yeah okay now I know it all'
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Nov 21, 2019 18:23
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PSA: Chartered: The Golden Age is garbage trash RNG-fest Acquire-for-babies that no-one should ever play.
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Nov 21, 2019 23:06
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I've realised I'm lacking a strong area control element in my collection. We're not the most aggro group but I think it'd be good to branch out a bit; is Kemet still game of choice in this regard or?
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Nov 21, 2019 23:17
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