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This whole thread seems to be dancing around the fact that there is no "honest vs dishonest, principled vs unprincipled" in that conversation. There is no way to square voting to impeach Clinton and not Trump. Tim Alberta isn't discovering some schism within the Republican party, he's failing to recognize that his assessment of Sanford and Hurd as "intellectual" or "principled" Republicans is actually childishly naive.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:36
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Papercut posted:This whole thread seems to be dancing around the fact that there is no "honest vs dishonest, principled vs unprincipled" in that conversation. There is no way to square voting to impeach Clinton and not Trump. Tim Alberta isn't discovering some schism within the Republican party, he's failing to recognize that his assessment of Sanford and Hurd as "intellectual" or "principled" Republicans is actually childishly naive. agreed. part of me feels like some of these assholes are waiting for the last second and than at the vote stab trump in the back, but probably not.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:41
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Mark Sanford is as bad as the rest of them; he just gets poo poo on by other Republicans because he dares to defy Trump
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Nov 22, 2019 04:43
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mcmagic posted:Good tweet thread. There are no "good" republicans. Goddamn Lindsay Graham sucks. I cannot wrap my head around this at all.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:44
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oxsnard posted:Something like 15% of Trump voters supported Obama. Do you really think there's nothing that can change their minds? This is actually extremely important. There are a decent number of voters who will roll the dice and swingt their votes based not on ideology, but who they think will give them the better deal. Bernie is usually about first, second or third in democratic primary polling, but what's not spoken about often is how he'll devour several percent of Trump's voting base. Republicans run on razor thin margins for wins and if someone is run who seems to give a poo poo, Trump's already thinning coalition falls apart. The margin for victory is normally plus or minus 3% for presidential elections and normally the elections are won by a margin of 3%, or 1.5% in each direction. If even 1% of Trump's base gets absorbed by Bernie that's catastrophic for Trump and the republican party, and he has a lot of disaffected voters to pull from. It's probably going to be more than 1%. If Bernie wins the primary, those of you who work for him, and I know there are a few of you out there, are going to brush across or even work with people who you normally would not like. That's what it means to create a new coalition. You'll be dealing with former Trump voters voting for a socialist and it's going to feel weird. Party allegiance is strong, but remember that not everyone is tribal. A lot of people vote to change their life circumstances and I don't blame them. They voted for Trump because he appealed to them, even if those appeals were all bullshit. They voted for Obama, even if a lot of that hope and change was also bullshit. But they'll keep voting to change their situation because some people can muster the energy to at least vote instead of giving up completely. Zophar posted:Goddamn Lindsay Graham sucks. I cannot wrap my head around this at all. Craven opportunist. What's to know? Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 04:45
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Ice Phisherman posted:This is actually extremely important. There are a decent number of voters who will roll the dice and swingt their votes based not on ideology, but who they think will give them the better deal. Bernie is usually about first, second or third in democratic primary polling, but what's not spoken about often is how he'll devour several percent of Trump's voting base. Republicans run on razor thin margins for wins and if someone is run who seems to give a poo poo, Trump's already thinning coalition falls apart. The margin for victory is normally plus or minus 3% for presidential elections and normally the elections are won by a margin of 3%, or 1.5% in each direction. If even 1% of Trump's base gets absorbed by Bernie that's catastrophic for Trump and the republican party, and he has a lot of disaffected voters to pull from. Both sides
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Nov 22, 2019 04:50
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Zophar posted:Goddamn Lindsay Graham sucks. I cannot wrap my head around this at all. who knows. i think he is a probably just a oppertunistic rear end in a top hat just like Mitch, the difference is graham can cry crocodile tears.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:who knows. i think he is a probably just a oppertunistic rear end in a top hat just like Mitch, the difference is graham can cry crocodile tears. I think what is jarring is how sincere he seems in that video.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:52
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mcmagic posted:I think what is jarring is how sincere he seems in that video. maybe he was sincere at some point. i feel the same way watching that. part of me kinda thinks whatever genuineness/"goodness" he had died with mccain. mccain was apperently his best friend and maybe he mean even more to graham and i assume after that, he just stopped caring. so now he is just this bootlicking rear end in a top hat. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 04:55
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mcmagic posted:I think what is jarring is how sincere he seems in that video. I'm sure he believes that while also believing a bunch of other ridiculous contradictory poo poo. The human capacity for ignoring cognitive dissonance is exemplified in politics in general and in contemporary Republicans in particular.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:56
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Nixon Resigns washingtonpost.com/August 9, 1974 'Declaring that he has never been a quitter, Mr. Nixon said that to leave office before the end of his term " is abhorrent to every instinct in my body."' .... 'While the President acknowledged that some of his judgments "were wrong," he made no confession of the "high crimes and misdemeanors" with which the House Judiciary Committee charged him in its bill of impeachment. Specifically, he did not refer to Judiciary Committee charges that in the cover-up of Watergate crimes he misused government agencies such as the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the Internal Revenue Service.' "Is abhorrent to every instinct in my body." As if the orange fecal smear could be so coherent.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:57
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A county switching from Obama to Trump doesn't mean the same people voted for Obama then voted for Trump. Trump got a smaller share of the vote than Romney did. The idea that a significant portion of Obama voters voted for Trump makes little sense.
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Nov 22, 2019 04:59
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Groovelord Neato posted:A county switching from Obama to Trump doesn't mean the same people voted for Obama then voted for Trump. i know of a few indies who switched but they are all boomer whites who "didnt like what the democrats became and how rude they were".
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Nov 22, 2019 05:07
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Groovelord Neato posted:A county switching from Obama to Trump doesn't mean the same people voted for Obama then voted for Trump. Also comparing Trump to Obama without any juxtaposition is extremely disingenuous and disturbing. Why do leftist purposely normalize Trump?
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Nov 22, 2019 05:07
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Groovelord Neato posted:A county switching from Obama to Trump doesn't mean the same people voted for Obama then voted for Trump. No one said that though???? I pointed out that 15% of Trump voters voted for Obama. That's nearly 10 million votes. Trump got a smaller share and still won because he flipped a few Midwestern states and Hillary being toxic significantly depressed Dem turnout
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Nov 22, 2019 05:08
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pkay posted:Both sides Not really. Some people aren't tied to party affiliation. If Bernie wins it'll probably be with the help of a few percentage points of Trump voters. Let them come, give them the basics on socialism, tell them we give a poo poo about them but that they'll need to leave the racism, sexism, Islamaphobia and the like at the door. I won't turn away someone who will change. If it's socialism or barbarism, you can convince a lot of people that barbarism sort of sucks when they're hit with bread, land and peace. People turn to racism to discharge the tensions created by capitalism, as I posted before. The tension is poverty. Alleviate their poverty and don't treat them like dogshit and many people will be far more amiable to socialism because it directly addresses the root of their problem. And if they're racist or whatever you correct them. Habits take some time to break, but if they're in a leftist culture, they're going to be under pressure of fierce egalitarianism. When I did work on campaigns previously, you'd get people who generally didn't get that they were being shits, especially when I lived in the South. If they're volunteering they're trying and you civilize them day by day. They'll either change or learn to shut the gently caress up about certain topics. If they persist, you tell them to gently caress the gently caress off. To dump the hate in the trash where it belongs. It's a lot easier to do that if there's a culture of people who understand how to civilize people. That said, working only on civilizing people can sour and turns into purity tests and circular firing squads pretty quick if you're not careful. If you're doing political foot soldier poo poo like knocking on doors or doing calls, you can't waste time arguing about what ten books everyone should have on their shelf when you should be working. You hope that people act less like idiots day by day, because becoming civilized is not a quick process. Even the communists when they chose their leaders at the local level would take about six months to instruct them in Marxist doctrine and those were people who were usually holding down a job at the same time. And what they'd tell them, always always, that the very first thing you can do is be the best drat worker you can be. You be the person to be relied on, the person to put in the extra hours, a serious person, basically. Someone who could be transformed from some average Joe or even a lazy shithead into someone who gathers respect. Then when you speak, you are listened to. I'm not particularly interested in both sides bullshit. I want to destroy what constitutes the political gridlock of both sides and reorganize the constituency in a way that distributes resources equitably so people can get care and ratchet down their stress so we can tackle big, nigh existential problems. It means speaking to, caucusing with and occasionally breaking bread with people that you may fundamentally disagree with, but sometimes that's not forever. People can change. People can be civilized. Some things seem so big or old or entrenched that they seem inevitable. Well a thing is inevitable until it isn't and then not for a single second longer.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:10
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pkay posted:Also comparing Trump to Obama without any juxtaposition is extremely disingenuous and disturbing. Why do leftist purposely normalize Trump? It's almost like lots of voters make decisions on arbitrary or irrelevant criteria. Also people can change views over time. Insinuating that every single Trump voter is irredeemable is foolish.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:11
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Zophar posted:Goddamn Lindsay Graham sucks. I cannot wrap my head around this at all. Yeah, ol' LG may be the ultimate "sold his soul" archetype. I don't believe in an afterlife or karma or any sort of justice in this universe but if anything of that sort exists Lindsey is in for a bad time.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:13
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Scrub the pots of all their possibilities tax: https://i.imgur.com/ixnAVtK.mp4
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Nov 22, 2019 05:13
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aparmenideanmonad posted:I'm sure he believes that while also believing a bunch of other ridiculous contradictory poo poo. The human capacity for ignoring cognitive dissonance is exemplified in politics in general and in contemporary Republicans in particular. I mean he's supported policies that deny himself the right to marry and be a first class citizen for years too.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:18
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Ice Phisherman posted:Not really. Some people aren't tied to party affiliation. I thought we debunked this economic anxiety poo poo a couple of years ago...
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Nov 22, 2019 05:22
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And now ladies and gentlemen I present to you a moment of centrist wisdom: https://twitter.com/CosechaMovement/status/1197684624970919936?s=19 edit: apropos of nothing my new AV is deffo one of my top 5 faves. TY to whatever salty centrist bought this one 
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 05:22
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pkay posted:I thought we debunked this economic anxiety poo poo a couple of years ago... Economic anxiety and racism are tied together. Racism is a tool of elites to steal labor from one racial group and cause another to accept, proliferate and participate in it. Racism sabotages class consciousness and creates people who in a system devoid of racism, or at least where it's very weak, who will accept unfairness and cruelty so long as they're not on the bottom. Economic anxiety is a path towards racism, especially if someone feels like their material conditions are deteriorating. They see themselves having to compete with people who they could be racist towards and racism allows them to unfairly compete for resources with the unfairly hated group. The smart move is for both to band together and look at who is stealing from them, but racism makes class consciousness difficult to grasp and protects the capital, status and safety of ruling elites who do the most damage. Prester Jane posted:Biden being poo poo. Don't like Biden? Thinking he's too racist? Well he is. And it's incredibly callous to tell someone at risk of deportation to vote for Trump.  Heh, what're you going to do, vote for Trump? Wait, what're you doing? Get away from that socialist. Get away! Biden forgets it's the primary and is so old that he can't feel the way the wind is blowing. Also, historically, his political instincts loving suck. Peter Principle at work as he sucks as a senator and keeps trying to grab the presidential brass ring. He's failed his presidential primary bid twice. Once in 1988 and once in 2000. Didn't even make it out of the primary. Now he's telling potential voters to eat poo poo as he plans to run right to find voters that don't exist. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 05:29
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double post.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:31
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Ice Phisherman posted:And if they're racist or whatever you correct them. Habits take some time to break, but if they're in a leftist culture, they're going to be under pressure of fierce egalitarianism. When I did work on campaigns previously, you'd get people who generally didn't get that they were being shits, especially when I lived in the South. If they're volunteering they're trying and you civilize them day by day. They'll either change or learn to shut the gently caress up about certain topics. If they persist, you tell them to gently caress the gently caress off. To dump the hate in the trash where it belongs. It's a lot easier to do that if there's a culture of people who understand how to civilize people. If this was true we wouldn't have any more racists because it isn't like our culture has been quiet about racism being lovely. Learning to 'shut up' doesn't make it go away especially in the days of the internet where they can find plenty of open cultures who welcome their racist behavior. Treating it like "oh gosh those poor racists/homophobes/etc just don't know better' is patronizing and ignoring the very real problem that they do know better. They just don't care because they enjoy having someone to hate and degrade. Asking people to constantly put themselves on the line for people who literally would be fine if they were tortured and murdered and in fact vote for their torture and murder every chance they get is unreasonable. Constantly giving, bending and acknowledging people who want you dead involves a *lot* of loving energy and when they turn around and throw it back in your face it takes a lot more energy to try again. This argument always boils down to "You must give everything because those other people are more important than you and it's your fault if you don't bow and whimper and beg and plead to them because they can't be expected to be adults or good people." This is something I see hurting a lot of places I work and volunteer with because people are human and have human limitations and expecting them to be ideal saints when they are degraded and hurt constantly and thrown under the bus by their own allies the moment it seems like it might appeal to the racist shits is ridiculous. There has to be some give and take, and the 'give' can't be bowing to anything the degrades other people. That is how you demoralize the people who are your best allies because you expect them to give everything because since they're already on your side they're not as important as the dude posting on Stormfront about how they all deserve to die.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:34
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Honestly Trump not getting removed will be the stake through his heart and a lot of GOP House and Senate members. The fact that there isn't sirens going off in every GOP member's campaign headquarters, especially after the elections in the last couple of weeks is amazing to me. Any member that votes against impeachment/removal that is in a remotely close race will have that vote around their neck. The attack ads will be never ending and will help fuel what is looking to be a massive blue wave. Lindsey Graham I think read his tea leaves wrong and expected that being close to the President would be good for his reelection chances. He was in danger of being primaried on the right. The problem is he opened himself up perhaps too much on his left flank and that may seriously hurt him. I know that the DNC has considered pouring some manpower there and in Kentucky against Mitch who is going to be dealing with scandal on top of impeachment and being deeply unpopular. Honestly the best choice for the GOP would be to convince Trump to step down, Pence to not run for reelection and get a new candidate. We all know that is not going to happen so it will be interesting to see how especially the Senate tries to worm out of this. None of their options are great and they will be hammered by almost all of them.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:34
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Prester Jane posted:And now ladies and gentlemen I present to you a moment of centrist wisdom: https://twitter.com/CosechaMovement/status/1197684624970919936?s=19 gently caress each and every person in the entire loving world that wants this loving piece of poo poo to be president. Compare that to Bernie saying "I stand with all undocumented immigrants" last night. THEY CAN'T EVEN VOTE FOR HIM AND HE STILL WANTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING. gently caress you joe biden.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:42
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ImpAtom posted:If this was true we wouldn't have any more racists because it isn't like our culture has been quiet about racism being lovely. Learning to 'shut up' doesn't make it go away especially in the days of the internet where they can find plenty of open cultures who welcome their racist behavior. This is a very complex subject, and it's a topic that's incredibly difficult for someone like Ice Phisherman to touch upon because he is himself not subject to the same forces of targeted oppression that minorities are in this country. I think the argument that Ice Phisherman was trying to make here was that when/if rural conservatives join Bernie's campaign as supporters that they shouldn't be thrown out the first time they screw up (and oh God will most of them screw up at least once or twice)- they can be potentially improved/re-socialized by spending time in a leftist activist environment. It won't be the Stormfront crew showing up to support Bernie- it will be people who are marginally on the outside of such groups because those are the social currents they learned to swim in while growing up. By showing enough initiative to show up and actually support a leftist candidates I think that these are the individuals who are worth the extra time and effort (if anyone is). That said if you're a marginalized person you don't owe any jackass the time of day, and you certainly don't owe them the amount of energy that is required in helping someone overcome these kinds of psychological humps.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:56
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No one should be surprised by this. These people view politics as a team sport. If presented with the exact same scenario against Obama or Clinton of course they would vote to impeach. But Trump? No chance. Is it hypocritical and inconsistent? Yes. Do they give a gently caress? No.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:57
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Prester Jane posted:And now ladies and gentlemen I present to you a moment of centrist wisdom: https://twitter.com/CosechaMovement/status/1197684624970919936?s=19 JFC, Biden comes of as impotent AF here. He completely lacks the leadership or conviction necessary to defuse or mollify this unbelievably uncomfortable confrontation at his own campaign event. He can hardly speak, and he clearly can't hear very well either. All of you people that are still supporting this senile loser need to pull your heads out of your asses.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:00
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Brave New World posted:JFC, Biden comes of as impotent AF here. He completely lacks the leadership or conviction necessary to defuse or mollify this unbelievably uncomfortable confrontation at his own campaign event. He can hardly speak, and he clearly can't hear very well either. All of you people that are still supporting this senile loser need to pull your heads out of your asses. He’s like clinton (“what are you going to do about it, vote for Trump?”) and trump (senile, bigoted) smushed together (old, white, rich).
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Nov 22, 2019 06:03
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Prester Jane posted:This is a very complex subject, and it's a topic that's incredibly difficult for someone like Ice Phisherman to touch upon because he is himself not subject to the same forces of targeted oppression that minorities are in this country. I think you are missing ImpAtom's point. Why are you targeting resources to this specific group of people. They don't share any of your goals and are quite frankly very opposed to your stated goals. Also, while actively recruiting and appealing to said individuals you are indirectly demoralizing individuals who share your goals.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:06
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ImpAtom posted:If this was true we wouldn't have any more racists because it isn't like our culture has been quiet about racism being lovely. I’m pretty sure everyone would agree progress is being made, just at a horrifically slow speed.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:10
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pkay posted:I think you are missing ImpAtom's point. Why are you targeting resources to this specific group of people. They don't share any of your goals and are quite frankly very opposed to your stated goals. Also, while actively recruiting and appealing to said individuals you are indirectly demoralizing individuals who share your goals. No one's "targeting resources" though- we are discussing the hypothetical scenario of Bernie winning the primary and then rural conservatives joining his campaign as unpaid volunteers. We're talking about the people who show up to do the work of their own accord- those are the ones who are worth a little bit more effort and patience in my opinion. Flowers for QAnon posted:I’m pretty sure everyone would agree progress is being made, just at a horrifically slow speed. Great strides are being made in the social realm- however the political realm is rather a different story at this particular juncture.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:11
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pkay posted:I think you are missing ImpAtom's point. Why are you targeting resources to this specific group of people. They don't share any of your goals and are quite frankly very opposed to your stated goals. Also, while actively recruiting and appealing to said individuals you are indirectly demoralizing individuals who share your goals. Because you only “turn the tides” by turning the populace?
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Nov 22, 2019 06:12
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:He’s like clinton (“what are you going to do about it, vote for Trump?”) and trump (senile, bigoted) smushed together (old, white, rich). Watching that debate last night I felt genuine despair for your country because it seems like nothing and no one is able to knock the nomination out of Joe Biden's old quivering boomer grip, including Joe Biden himself. And even if Trump is a stroke and dementia-ravaged vegetable that needs to be wheeled around in that beeping box from Star Trek and can only answer questions in the form of violent involuntary farts by the time the 2020 general election rolls around... if he's up against Biden, he's gonna win again. And yeah, that includes if he's impeached.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:15
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:He’s like clinton (“what are you going to do about it, vote for Trump?”) and trump (senile, bigoted) smushed together (old, white, rich). Tbf though "what are you gonna do about, vote for the Republican?" is just a more honest distillation of a school of thought that is very popular in wide swaths of current Democratic leadership/privileged white Democrats. (It's not as though variations on that exact same sentiment don't appear frequently in this forums own discussions.) Basically though this is just the most recent demonstration of the fact that centrists cannot lead*, they can only manage people that they believe have no other options. * because their sheltered existence has prevented them from having the life experience's necessary to appreciate/understand what actual leadership is. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 06:20
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honestly imagine Republicans putting Hunter Biden up and presenting... what? do you think they'll handle this any more competently than they did these hearings. they had zero evidence Hunter Biden did or influenced anything. they had nothing and they will have nothing, because if they had they'd have presented it. and they'll do everything in their power to keep Trump from making a live appearance because if he does, it's over. how loving guilty will he look after he doesn't show? the numbers show people support the trial, and think he did something wrong, if he doesn't show up to defend himself it will look bad.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:23
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nine-gear crow posted:Watching that debate last night I felt genuine despair for your country because it seems like nothing and no one is able to knock the nomination out of Joe Biden's old quivering boomer grip, including Joe Biden himself. And even if Trump is a stroke and dementia-ravaged vegetable that needs to be wheeled around in that beeping box from Star Trek and can only answer questions in the form of violent involuntary farts by the time the 2020 general election rolls around... if he's up against Biden, he's gonna win again. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/471528-poll-biden-and-sanders-tied-nationally-followed-by-warren don't give up hope.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:25
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Prester Jane posted:No one's "targeting resources" though- we are discussing the hypothetical scenario of Bernie winning the primary and then rural conservatives joining his campaign as unpaid volunteers. Rural conservatives aren't going to join his campaign. In fact, rural conservatives are going to fight that poo poo tooth and nail. Why aren't you focusing on urban apathetic cynics who haven't been bombarded by right-wing tropes and bullshit ideology? It's much easier to give the guy who believes in nothing something to believe in.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:28
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