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Gnumonic posted:I'm the only person I know who watches all of these loving hearings. Schiff's right that this is really about whether we can keep our democracy, but unfortunately, I don't think we deserve to. Deserve's got nothing to do with it 
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Nov 22, 2019 05:37
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Charlz Guybon posted:Deserve's got nothing to do with it I don't wanna fight over one word repeatedly but it's clear to me that if voters remain willfully ignorant of corruption, incompetence, and malice in their government and choose to believe Russian propaganda instead of... reality?.... then said voters are the ultimate cause of, and are responsible for, the consequences of that willful ignorance. If a doctor tells you that you have gangrene on your dick and you don't take antibiotics for the sole reason that you don't want to believe your dick has gangrene, you only have yourself to blame when your dick falls off. That was my point. The alternative is that they're all being brainwashed, but if that's true then there's no hope anyway since apparently the brainwashing is effective and there's no apparently available means to counter it.
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Nov 22, 2019 05:49
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Gnumonic posted:I don't wanna fight over one word repeatedly but it's clear to me that if voters remain willfully ignorant of corruption, incompetence, and malice in their government and choose to believe Russian propaganda instead of... reality?.... then said voters are the ultimate cause of, and are responsible for, the consequences of that willful ignorance. If a doctor tells you that you have gangrene on your dick and you don't take antibiotics for the sole reason that you don't want to believe your dick has gangrene, you only have yourself to blame when your dick falls off. That was my point. This is kinda problem that gets me thinking we need an amendment that says knowingly and willingly lying is not protected speech in any form. Now it's legal to pass laws punishing people for engaging in willful lying of any sort. Of course, this is absolutely loving impossible to actually enforce. Any system of truth is easily corruptable, and now the truth is not the truth. It's impossible to do. Then again, democracy is also impossible to do, right? It will always fall to something because we as people (you and me included) are dumb and every democracy collapses eventually. So we shouldn't do it. Except we do because we have no better system. If a democracy can be inheritently corrupted, we don't throw the idea of democracy out. We do our best to make it work. Given the insane power of fake news in this era, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a system of truth should be attempted. Sure, it could be corrupted and turn lies into truth. But democracy can be corrupted into any number of terrible tragedies without breaking a single law... Yet we haven't given up on the idea, because we don't have a better one. Short of a system of truth, I can't figure out a better way of combating willful ignorance. It isn't even something that can be addressed via education, because the issue isn't a lack of education. Even if they know what they're saying is not true, it does not matter because the truth does not matter because they will not be punished for lying. So why not ignore the truth, whatever it is, and just devolve into tribalism? There's no penalty for ignoring reality, in fact, it's easier. You get a tribe of people to support you. But engaging with reality bears a high cost. Every tribe will hate you somewhere, sometime, for some reason. That all said...  .There's no way anything like this could ever happen. So we'll need to find some other solution. I'd hope we can find one that avoids punishment for engaging in bullshit, but once you take the stick away.... What's left? There is no carrot to offer here. EDIT: oh wait I'm fuckin derp obviously. We already have this. It's called the Justice system. You can lie any other time... But not when talking to the Justice system. That's probably a bad idea, as someone like Roger Stone can attest to. But it has to... You know... Actually function. Consistently. In reality. Sadly, Barr has the one of the largest institutions in this system corrupted to the point where it's actively working to generate dirt for the Russians, though, so I guess that means we're already in the dystopian hell future. 
Xaiter fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 06:15
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Gnumonic posted:I don't wanna fight over one word repeatedly but it's clear to me that if voters remain willfully ignorant of corruption, incompetence, and malice in their government and choose to believe Russian propaganda instead of... reality?.... then said voters are the ultimate cause of, and are responsible for, the consequences of that willful ignorance. If a doctor tells you that you have gangrene on your dick and you don't take antibiotics for the sole reason that you don't want to believe your dick has gangrene, you only have yourself to blame when your dick falls off. That was my point. Or maybe you actually keep working and have some faith in the sort of folks who keep turning unlikely places blue and gently caress the polls? Maybe gently caress the “we don’t deserve anything nice” and the “nothing matters” bullshit while you’re at it? Sexpot was right, you guys are making GBS threads all over the hard work that tons of people are doing trying to make this a better place. There’s a reason why despair is considered an unforgivable sin in some faiths and it’s harmful here because you aren’t happy to just wallow in your own misery - you have to bring others down with you.
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Nov 22, 2019 06:23
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Companion Cube posted:hello I hear you can get a snazzy I WANT NOTHING gang tag by asking in this thread to commemorate the historic event of the President of the United States being a big wet-brained pissbaby who wants nothing It is my distinct pleasure to inform you that you can’t have any
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Nov 22, 2019 07:00
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:I'm watching Schiff's closing statement. Awesome stuff. That guy's been there the entire time. I think he just looks like that. A resting sad face 
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Nov 22, 2019 07:35
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oxsnard posted:Ok, so after thinking this over, how does that change the political calculus? I think it will be an Option D: GOP makes a sham impeachment trial. Democrats and Media will yell bloody murder but will be unable to do much. They will likely pull in Hunter Biden, the Taco Bell guy, George Soros any whatever other insane conspiracy figure they can in to question. When Democrats rightfully say that none of this has anything to do with what Trump did they will spout out nonsense. The Senate will vote to not convict. In turn that will put a ton of Senators into bad spots as by Summer it will become obvious that it is a noose they tied around their own necks. They will lose somewhere between 7-11 seats in the Senate and another 15-20 seats in the House. Even if Trump wins, which is unlikely, he will cost them all dearly. Since you know he won't be able to stop himself from bringing up how the Senate voted to not remove him EVERY SINGLE DAY of the next 10-11 months. All that will do is draw a massive target on the people who did that. Sadly it is all incredibly easy to see as they aren't good at hiding their intentions. Unless somehow they can convince Trump to resign and Pence to not run which is a huge long shot. All the smart politicians got drummed out of the GOP a decade plus ago so it isn't surprising that they don't realize they are driving the bus off the cliff.
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Nov 22, 2019 07:57
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Didn't get a chance to watch Schiffs closing speech live. But holy poo poo. Looking back on the hearings, every time Nunes was talking, Schiff just sat there, calm as gently caress. Like he was just waiting for this moment to go nuclear on all of them. I actually recommend going back and just watching the Silent line again. All the press in the back just stop what they are doing and turn around in shock.
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Nov 22, 2019 09:12
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E-flat posted:
Why not both?
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Nov 22, 2019 10:20
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Thanks PPJ for the tag.Charlz Guybon posted:Why not both? 
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Nov 22, 2019 11:18
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It straight up baffles me why “nothing matters...” isn’t at least a probation. Anybody posting that poo poo is ether trolling, an idiot, or seriously needs to disconnect for a bit and get some air.
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Nov 22, 2019 12:21
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Idahoant posted:I tried this out with videos of people from Louisiana and with Fiona Hill at faster and slower speeds and it did not sound the same. Not to move the goal post on you, but why did you choose a Cajun accent? Louisiana is infamous for its weirdo French creole. Think more Scarlett O’Hara.
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Nov 22, 2019 12:28
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There are some vestigial similarities between English and American Southern accents but nobody would confuse them today, no matter the region or how fast they were sped up.
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Nov 22, 2019 12:35
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Warmachine posted:As someone who doesn't stick their head into live congressional talks that often, are the posters just there so that the Republican talking points are always visible? “See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.” ― George W. Bush
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Nov 22, 2019 13:22
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CyberPingu posted:Didn't get a chance to watch Schiffs closing speech live. But holy poo poo. which silent line? I tried to find it on youtube by typing schiff silent line hearing but I cant find it
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Nov 22, 2019 13:29
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The GOP will keep insisting we need to hear from the whistle-blower. So so far we've heard from
When it's all done, do you think we'll just find out that the whistle-blower testified...? I mean we can probably scratch Volker, Sondland and Morrison from that speculation, but would it be that surprising if one of the others was the whistle-blower, even if we didn't know who..?
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Nov 22, 2019 13:31
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There is no way Republicans are gonna allow Trump to be questioned in person, is there? Like, that in itself is extremely abnormal.
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Nov 22, 2019 13:31
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ManBoyChef posted:which silent line? I tried to find it on youtube by typing schiff silent line hearing but I cant find it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ssrr2OsQ0&t=73s
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Nov 22, 2019 13:36
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Ghetto SuperCzar posted:There is no way Republicans are gonna allow Trump to be questioned in person, is there? Like, that in itself is extremely abnormal. It'll be glorious if Trump insists on testifying and ends up admitting to all his crimes by accident Letting him or Giuliani anywhere near the stand would be catastrophic for the Republicans
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Nov 22, 2019 13:37
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Gort posted:It'll be glorious if Trump insists on testifying and ends up admitting to all his crimes by accident The last few times Trump testified under oath he knew enough not to lie. Of course that was back before the brainworms moved in apparently. Guiliani on the other hand is both more likely to testify and extremely more likely to drop a nuke or 12 on the proceedings if he suspects he's the fall guy. Oracle fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 13:59
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John Roberts has a plan. A plan that has driven his entire life and career that has culminated with his appointment as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. A 20 to 30 year plan that will outlive Trump and might even outlive this diseased incarnation of the Republican party. That plan is to protect and increase the power of the court. While its true that politics has become tribal, a person can belong to more than one tribe. Roberts has shown signs that his membership in the "Judiciary is the most important branch" tribe is more important than his membership in the Republican tribe.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:02
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WorldsStongestNerd posted:John Roberts has a plan. A plan that has driven his entire life and career that has culminated with his appointment as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. A 20 to 30 year plan that will outlive Trump and might even outlive this diseased incarnation of the Republican party. That plan is to protect and increase the power of the court. While its true that politics has become tribal, a person can belong to more than one tribe. Roberts has shown signs that his membership in the "Judiciary is the most important branch" tribe is more important than his membership in the Republican tribe. Roberts only cares about his own legacy. He will give every minor(ie:forgettable) win he can to the GOP but any big case he decides based on what the history books will say about him.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:18
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Retro42 posted:Roberts only cares about his own legacy. He will give every minor(ie:forgettable) win he can to the GOP but any big case he decides based on what the history books will say about him. Correct and Roberts is smart enough to realize that history will not look fondly upon Donald J Trump
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Nov 22, 2019 15:21
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There’s probably a fair amount of Conservatives pissed off at Trump only because he’s stupid and corrupt instead of regular corrupt who would just rubber stamp and do what they want.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:27
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bobjr posted:There’s probably a fair amount of Conservatives pissed off at Trump only because he’s stupid and corrupt instead of regular corrupt who would just rubber stamp and do what they want. The Republicans allowed Trump to play politics too long and he ripped the mask off of their base and revealed that it's really about racism. Now they can't get rid of him because their low-key racism isn't good enough for the base. If they get rid of Trump the Republican voters will rip them apart. Add to that the fact that a lot of Republican politicians are likely in bed with Russian money and you have a recipe for the shitshow we have now.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:48
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E-flat posted:Not to move the goal post on you, but why did you choose a Cajun accent? Louisiana is infamous for its weirdo French creole. Think more Scarlett O’Hara. Oh, I was listening to people from Shreveport, LA, they're not cajun. But that's the thing, there's a lot of different 'southern' accents and british ones as well. Vivien leigh is a bad example though because she's actually british, I would question her southern accent honesty.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:50
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SchrodingersCat posted:a lot of Republican politicians are likely in bed with Russian money and you have a recipe for the shitshow we have now. I can't wait to see how this dovetails with the NRA meltdown after investigations stopped the flow of Russian money. GOP can't launder Russian money through the NRA anymore? Now they need their own deals through their own super pacs? Have to appeal to Russian desires more directly to keep the flow flowing?
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Nov 22, 2019 15:59
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What it seems to me about the Senate is that while I agree that I don't think that an impeachment trial would end in Trump getting convicted, I also don't think that Mitch McConnell likes Trump or is willing to stick his neck out for him. If public opinion turns out in favor of impeachment, McConnell will throw Trump under the bus. He already the judicial appointments he wanted, and now his big priority is trying to rehabilitate the Republican party and keep the Senate in 2020.
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Nov 22, 2019 16:10
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Excellent closing remarks from Schiff. Did he almost cry right at the end?
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Nov 22, 2019 16:19
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It just utterly baffles me how any Senator could possibly vote to acquit. The evidence is overwhelming and damning. A vote to acquit is admitting the President is utterly above the law.
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Nov 22, 2019 16:23
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Excellent closing remarks from Schiff. Did he almost cry right at the end? No, he's just a good lawyer which involves more performative skill than most people credit
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Nov 22, 2019 16:24
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axeil posted:It just utterly baffles me how any Senator could possibly vote to acquit. The evidence is overwhelming and damning. A vote to acquit is admitting the President is utterly above the law. Party over country, simple as that
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Nov 22, 2019 16:29
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axeil posted:It just utterly baffles me how any Senator could possibly vote to acquit. The evidence is overwhelming and damning. A vote to acquit is admitting the President is utterly above the law. Republicans don't care about truth anymore. They only care about power. And using that power to damage their political enemies. They think what Trump did was clever and are applauding him for it.
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Nov 22, 2019 16:31
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Republicans see the possibility of an autocracy and are taking their best stab at making it a reality.
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Nov 22, 2019 16:37
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my bony fealty posted:Party over country, simple as that When it comes down to it, they're just different tribes. One's a smaller and more understandable tribe contained within the other - easier to circle the wagons.
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Nov 22, 2019 16:38
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axeil posted:It just utterly baffles me how any Senator could possibly vote to acquit. The evidence is overwhelming and damning. A vote to acquit is admitting the President is utterly above the law. Here's one of those senators. https://twitter.com/commondefense/status/1197884538891972608
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Nov 22, 2019 17:01
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Otteration posted:"I don't see how anyone is going to convince Nixon to resign." Nixon resigned because the Senate Majority Leader told him they had to votes to convict him, and if he didn't resign they would remove him. The Senate absolutely should, but absolutely does not have the votes to convict Trump.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:03
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Ehud posted:Here's one of those senators. You can see in Lindsays body language that being a bootlicking piece of poo poo is wearing on him. If only Papa Trump would give him some of those drugs to keep him moving. Seriously though, if a combat vet is talking to you, and they’re being civil, you treat them with respect. Look them in the eye. Talk to them. Don’t loving ignore them like they’re some sort of moron shilling an MLM pitch.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:12
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Retro42 posted:Roberts only cares about his own legacy. He will give every minor(ie:forgettable) win he can to the GOP but any big case he decides based on what the history books will say about him. Yes, which is why i expect supenas to be enfored at the actual trial. At least i hope.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:17
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Rolabi Wizenard posted:I can't wait to see how this dovetails with the NRA meltdown after investigations stopped the flow of Russian money. GOP can't launder Russian money through the NRA anymore? Now they need their own deals through their own super pacs? Have to appeal to Russian desires more directly to keep the flow flowing? That's where guys like Parnas come in. Citizens United is such a sham because it basically allows for unlimited money laundering through political donations and removes the need for groups like the NRA.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:17
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