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MassRafTer posted:I posted the clip in the indies thread but the full Effy interview is up on We The Independent. I started listening to this on my way into work this AM and I’ll take Effy’s perspective on wrestling as an entertainment product over anyone else’s any day. I especially liked the “wrestling in the 80s and 90s were meant to emulate a fight, now you have a generation that’s trying to emulate pro wrestling because that’s what they watched.”
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Nov 22, 2019 17:09
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So they thanked Tom for all his years in MLW as a precursor to announcing... more years in MLW? That said I did love Bryan asking him what leaving his gear in the ring meant and Tom replying,"I need new gear."
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Nov 22, 2019 17:10
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This week's Observer felt very light compared to usual. Not enough scooping for my liking, and an irritatingly long and daft Cornette story.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:15
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Dropped another episode of the Rudocast. Scotty and I talk AEW Dynamite, the ProWrrestling Revolution (my local lucha indie) show this past Sat with LA Park, and a gift guide for that very special rudo in your life. https://rudospodcast.co/episode-18-aew-pwr-and-rudo-gifts/
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Nov 22, 2019 17:17
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Jerusalem posted:So they thanked Tom for all his years in MLW as a precursor to announcing... more years in MLW? What a swerve
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Nov 22, 2019 17:27
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STAC Goat posted:There's nothing baffling about it. Lots of (white) people hesitate to call racism "racism" because for a white person the worst thing you can be called is "racist." So you've got a big spectrum from people who think nothing is "racist" unless there's a white robe and burning cross to people who totally think its racist but just avoid using that word because they think they might have more success making their point using another word because they know some people will shut down and get defensive the second they hear "racism/racist." It's honestly like 90% this I'm sure. Like, if ACH had said that the shirt was dumb and that he was frustrated with creative or people being two-faced, Dave would probably have gone 'he's got every right to be mad and want out' but because he used the scary word, he's making a mountain out of a molehill and is unstable. If people had pointed out that Cornette's comment was offensive but not used the term racist, he'd probably be a lot less worried about 'what about Orton' (again, the Orton thing IS a fair point but yes, the context is somewhat important as Orton did that on his own Twitch stream as an individual, not as part of a WWE broadcast with the tacit approval of the company). It's also why a lot of people get very uptight about sexual assault and misconduct because calling out rapists by using that word is similarly seen as The Most Bad Word You Can Use so unless it's like a caricature of dragging a woman into an alley like in a Frank Miller Batman comic, then you get 'well, is it REALLY' thinkpieces and discussions. The Cornette stuff I could've written off as Dave being conflicted about a friend and someone he respected loving up and letting his true colours show so he didn't want to go too hard, but the 'he had enemies' stuff was already tingling my spidey-sense. That ACH line is absolutely insane and please tell me he's at least getting raked over Twitter for it (...I know he's probably getting the opposite)
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Nov 22, 2019 17:40
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gently caress off, Dave "apologize to the people who were offended.". https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1197924371139944451?s=19
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Nov 22, 2019 18:09
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Racist and racism are loaded words, and when people who present themselves as reporters of truth and facts refuse to say them, it just gives those words more power. Not using them precisely (as they should have been used here) leads to more abstract and incorrect usages of them, which it seems is what Dave is trying to avoid (but he’s totally in the wrong here). I will defer to people who have to deal with it more than me, but it often feels like it were less bad to be considered racist—if it was like some bacterial infection you just had to take an antiobiotic for—it would be easier to have honest conversations about it. Instead there’s a weird psychological thing in our society that happens where victimhood makes people protagonists and so many people are desperate to be righteous heroes in their lives that they’ll take any route possible to be there—including willfully mishearing “hey, don’t say that racist thing” (which is what I usually hear most affected people say) and turning it into “you are, from birth until death, a bad person no matter what.” Being ostracized is one of the things human beings really loving hate, and it’s really hostile to do it to others (when you are angry with someone, your brain fires neurons to view them as “other” almost immediately—and often when we’re angry with someone close to us it’s because we view them as trying to damage the “us” circle), and it seems like Dave is trying to avoid that. I respect that, but he’s wrong—you have to call racism racism, and you have to give respect to people who are brave enough to publicly defy racist cultures. Dave seems like he is responding to this really heightened (and, imho, immature) need for ostracization of racists and sexists. And it’s like—yeah, those people loving suck. But I would like it if the filter was more those people loving suck right now. There’s no point in holding the moral high ground if you don’t use it to build ramps and stairs. that’s not a job for minorities unless they want it, though. gently caress anybody who says minorities have to teach other people how to respect them
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Nov 22, 2019 18:09
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This whole situation is just really disappointing I feel. I kind of am thinking of letting my subscription lapse. Half because of this, half because I haven't actually watched a wrestling show in like 4 years :/
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Nov 22, 2019 18:49
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Every time I say a person has problematic views vis a vis racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc., people reflexively "Whoaaahhhh hold up" at me. Dave, like most people, is more concerned about people calling things racist than people being racist. ACH gave everybody his lived experience of dealing with racism and rather than believe him, people here literally- LITERALLY said he was going insane. God forbid we listen to a black man telling us what it's like.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:53
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Person. Like one person said that and he's banned from posting. The most other people said was echoed by ACH himself: He does have some mental health struggles, but that doesn't make his concerns about WWE's racist treatment invalid.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:55
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Yeah, it hurts my brain that people are buying ACH is this absolute menace running around. If he was having a severe mental health moment, he'd be dead, arrested or on TMZ. At no point did any of the statements released by ACH indicate he was under duress, coercion or in pain. Now some people can bring up anecdotal stuff or whatever, but the simpelst story is often the truth: WWE treated ACH noticably different and he didn't like it. ACH wanted out, WWE waffled so ACH took it public. gently caress Dave Meltzer for sabotaging ACH's return to the indies. Go wear your Kenny Omega t shirt in the bathtub and cry, BITCH.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:06
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i'm disappointed but also not surprised by dave's comments. a lot of industry vets are always seen as an old boys club and will be revered by some of the longest watchers despite their problematic histories. though it is definitely funny that cornette is this brilliant talker then here he is recycling lovely old lines from the 1980s
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Nov 22, 2019 19:09
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Lawler's the same, they have a bunch of these (often racist and/or sexist) one-liners memorised and just spit them out as needed.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:10
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As a long time listener and reader, I think Dave's comment was from a place of saying that other people might now try to exploit ACH's situation for their own gain and was not meant as an attack on ACH. Of course, in Dave fashion, it was done extremely poorly and came off very very very bad. I could be wrong, but that's my take on it. The Cornette thing, Dave should know better by now.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:11
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And no one's even touching Austin Idol's date rape cocktail.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:11
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sportsgenius86 posted:As a long time listener and reader, I think Dave's comment was from a place of saying that other people might now try to exploit ACH's situation for their own gain and was not meant as an attack on ACH. Of course, in Dave fashion, it was done extremely poorly and came off very very very bad. In isolation I might agree, but his previous responses to ACH and also this Cornette thing is a pattern.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:12
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I didn't like Dave's comments on WOR but didn't really think it should fall on him to have to comment on the whole situation in the first place. To me it felt kind of lovely that people were already waiting to jump on him before he even said anything. But with the way he doubled down on it in the observer, talking about how Cornette only got in trouble because he had enemies etc and the way he doubled down on his terrible comments on the ACH situation it's really hard to write off as Dave just being a bad communicator at this point, so I'm going to cancel my subscription and write them an email explaining why I think its unacceptable. I hope anyone else who is a subscriber considers emailing them and telling them what you think, even if you're not going to cancel as well.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:14
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:Every time I say a person has problematic views vis a vis racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc., people reflexively "Whoaaahhhh hold up" at me. Please stop making everything about you
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Nov 22, 2019 19:19
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White people don't like calling other white people racist because it's saying "I'm not on the same team as you". Saying oh you can't say that is the equivalent of "Hey, we got to be nice to the other team" but calling someone out as racist firmly plants you as on the other side and as an adversary.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:20
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Alaois posted:Please stop making everything about you nah its pretty common for people on the other side of the white picket fence.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:20
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It's also really telling that Biff Busick is also trying to quit WWE in a similar way to ACH but without the claims of racism so no one is calling him crazy. So if you try to quit with aggressive social media posts because you're just unhappy that's fine and normal but if you try to do it because of racism you're mentally unwell.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:23
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Gumball Gumption posted:White people don't like calling other white people racist because it's saying "I'm not on the same team as you". Saying oh you can't say that is the equivalent of "Hey, we got to be nice to the other team" but calling someone out as racist firmly plants you as on the other side and as an adversary. There was a pretty good YouTube video about this, where it pointed out that you need to focus on the ACTION being racist/sexist/homophobic, because if you attack the person they'll shut down because no-one thinks of themselves as a bigot. They'll just go 'inside I'm not a bad person' which is an argument you can't win because you can't provide evidence that they're racist in their own head. But if you focus on 'thing you said was racist and bad' then that's something you can show.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:25
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's also really telling that Biff Busick is also trying to quit WWE in a similar way to ACH but without the claims of racism so no one is calling him crazy. So if you try to quit with aggressive social media posts because you're just unhappy that's fine and normal but if you try to do it because of racism you're mentally unwell. Especially noticeable because Biff is yelling all the time on Twitter. (I usually like the gimmick but honestly, he should type normally if he wants to make his legit concerns heard because I see the ALL CAPS and tune out)
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Nov 22, 2019 19:26
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The Full Gear review episode from Cornette has become pretty funny in retrospect. "I'm a racist" and "I haven't been banned from anything this week" are two verbatim quotes.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:31
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Gaz-L posted:Especially noticeable because Biff is yelling all the time on Twitter. (I usually like the gimmick but honestly, he should type normally if he wants to make his legit concerns heard because I see the ALL CAPS and tune out) His twitter gimmick is just the cherry on top.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:32
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Dave is a professional who should do better work but I think the ACH coverage has been influenced by only one side of the story talking to him. The Lethal stuff might have even been a two-fer with Dave getting shook by "Uncle Tom" and having spent years uncritically printing the ROH office side as news. Again, it is nobody else's fault that Dave lacks of a voice in his circle who would respond critically to whatever NXT stooge claims "It was just a bad shirt! We really like him and want to push him!" But there is more to bad coverage than the internal biases of a 60 year old white guy.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:35
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Alaois posted:Please stop making everything about you
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Nov 22, 2019 19:36
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:Dave is a professional who should do better work but I think the ACH coverage has been influenced by only one side of the story talking to him. The Lethal stuff might have even been a two-fer with Dave getting shook by "Uncle Tom" and having spent years uncritically printing the ROH office side as news. ACH's side is right there. He's not hiding it.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:38
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Gumball Gumption posted:White people don't like calling other white people racist because it's saying "I'm not on the same team as you". Saying oh you can't say that is the equivalent of "Hey, we got to be nice to the other team" but calling someone out as racist firmly plants you as on the other side and as an adversary.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:39
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Wezlar posted:I hope anyone else who is a subscriber considers emailing them and telling them what you think, even if you're not going to cancel as well. This is the best course of action. Send Dave a nicely worded, perhaps passionate message explaining how what he said was wrong and as he has before, there's a decent enough chance that Dave will apologize. Of course there's like an 85% chance he won't stick the landing on the apology and dig himself deeper but he'll try and then you can move on, or write Dave off knowing that you tried and he's never going to get it.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:41
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Gaz-L posted:There was a pretty good YouTube video about this, where it pointed out that you need to focus on the ACTION being racist/sexist/homophobic, because if you attack the person they'll shut down because no-one thinks of themselves as a bigot. They'll just go 'inside I'm not a bad person' which is an argument you can't win because you can't provide evidence that they're racist in their own head. But if you focus on 'thing you said was racist and bad' then that's something you can show. I've honest to God called people out on racist poo poo they've said and had them retort, "I can't be racist I have a black nephew". In some people's mind you can't be racist unless you're a full fledged member of the KKK.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:50
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JT Smiley posted:I've honest to God called people out on racist poo poo they've said and had them retort, "I can't be racist I have a black nephew". In some people's mind you can't be racist unless you're a full fledged member of the KKK. In my experience, making it clear you can do racist poo poo without being consciously, knowingly racist helps
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Nov 22, 2019 19:57
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JT Smiley posted:I've honest to God called people out on racist poo poo they've said and had them retort, "I can't be racist I have a black nephew". In some people's mind you can't be racist unless you're a full fledged member of the KKK.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:00
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:These days, not even that. Literal Nazis are back and calling themselves Nazis, but when you talk about it, white people clutch their pearls and tell you "we need to be very careful about that language." The Marketplace of Ideas thrives on decorum.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:12
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gently caress decorum. lets wrestle
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Nov 22, 2019 20:15
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I just sent Dave a two page letter about how I think he's done a disservice with his ACH & Jim Cornette coverage. I hope he's receptive to it, because I'm pretty disappointed in what he put in this week's issue.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:16
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Punch McLightning posted:I just sent Dave a two page letter about how I think he's done a disservice with his ACH & Jim Cornette coverage. I hope he's receptive to it, because I'm pretty disappointed in what he put in this week's issue. You should have included a screenshot of your twitter account with 0 followers to make sure he reads it
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Nov 22, 2019 20:19
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I somehow have 27 followers on my wrestling alt account I don’t use very often and I wasn’t expecting it to be that high.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:35
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:These days, not even that. Literal Nazis are back and calling themselves Nazis, but when you talk about it, white people clutch their pearls and tell you "we need to be very careful about that language." Well yeah that's because racism no longer exists in their minds so anyone stepping up and pointing it out is just playing the race card you see. But in the cause of WWE they've got such a stories history of this kind of poo poo that the people claiming it doesn't exist probably are a bit racist themselves.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:48
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