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Apparently the whole "Well actually police need to be trained to shoot only to kill, there's no other option" is bullshit because a ton of european police forces actually train to shoot to wound/disable. Aim for the legs to stop the person with he knife charging at you, and the lower angled shots also have a much lower chance of hitting bystanders too.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:14
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The guy was still moving when the second volley was fired. He was moving away from the officers but I can't tell if he was making any motion to possibly swing that machete back. What I can tell is that the entire time the police were firing the closest officer was within swinging distance of that machete and no shots were fired after the guy with the machete hit the ground. It loving sucks that this happened in the first place but TBH this looks a lot more like 'the officer shot the person with the machete because he didn't want to get killed by the person with the machete' than 'cops out for blood'.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:17
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vincentpricesboner posted:The man deciding to rob a store with a machete set this all in motion. He put the staff in incredible risk and then himself and the public when he left the store. isn't it convenient that people spontaneously decide to do crimes with no measurable influence from their mental health or classism EvilJoven posted:TBH this looks a lot more like 'the officer shot the person with the machete because he didn't want to get killed by the person with the machete' than 'cops out for blood'. hot take: ain't no difference
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Nov 22, 2019 17:18
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DariusLikewise posted:I didn't realized armed robbery carries a sentence of death If he had killed the cop close to him by slashing his throat, he still would not have committed a crime that carry a death sentence in Canada so I guess at that point to you would expect them to still be in de-escalate mode.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:37
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The fact that there are many European countries in which this poo poo literally never happens because police are taught and expected to learn de-escalation and non-lethal takedowns is more than enough evidence that North American policing is not based in what is necessary, but what is easy and appeals to conservative psychopaths who like to see people get murdered for being poor or a minority. There is legitimately no defense for this kind of thing. It's going to keep happening with increasing frequency as Manitoba keeps falling apart, and I sincerely doubt that anyone is going to do anything to ameliorate the situation, as there seems to be no opposition whatsoever to the conservatives that run the province. I guess if anyone wants a glimpse into what the future of most of this country will look like if Sanders isn't president in 2021, you can look no further than Manitoba 
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Nov 22, 2019 17:43
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Nov 22, 2019 17:46
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supersnowman posted:If he had killed the cop close to him by slashing his throat, he still would not have committed a crime that carry a death sentence in Canada so I guess at that point to you would expect them to still be in de-escalate mode. Yes, the only two options were pump 9 bullets into a guy with a machete or a cop dies, there was no in between or any other options available to anyone in that situation.
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Nov 22, 2019 17:53
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EvilJoven posted:The guy was still moving when the second volley was fired. He was moving away from the officers but I can't tell if he was making any motion to possibly swing that machete back. What I can tell is that the entire time the police were firing the closest officer was within swinging distance of that machete and no shots were fired after the guy with the machete hit the ground. I don't know specifically if it was "cops out for blood" or more just that the WPS approached the situation guns drawns, ready to shot and it happened. I don't know if you remember the story from like 2 or 3 years ago about the guy who was in one of the Winnipeg skyways and he had attached a knife to a pole, created a spear and the cops took every situation de-escalation avenue they have available to them in that situation before they finally shot the guy in the leg once. Why was this any different than that?
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Nov 22, 2019 17:55
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why were the cops that close to him
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Nov 22, 2019 18:03
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WPS Update: The 16-year old suspect remains in critical condition in hospital
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Nov 22, 2019 18:05
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prom candy posted:why were the cops that close to him Because they have guns and they can just shoot him, they don't care about de-escalating or trying to prevent his death.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:05
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reminds me of tamir rice. "alright we have a report of a dangerous suspect with a deadly weapon so we're just gonna roll up on him steve irwin style and then scare ourselves into killing him"
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Nov 22, 2019 18:09
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https://twitter.com/nicholas_falvo/status/1197631617340043264 So like the only progressive policy Trudeau did is good? (I mean, the rest of what he did is pretty poo poo.)
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Nov 22, 2019 18:15
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DariusLikewise posted:Yes, the only two options were pump 9 bullets into a guy with a machete or a cop dies, there was no in between or any other options available to anyone in that situation. I'm not trying to say it was either or, I'm trying to say that the fact that armed robbery does not carry a death sentence is irrelevant. That situation should have gotten de-escalated instead of 9 bullet being fired but no matter what crime you committed to begin with is irrelevant if during your encounter with the cops. I think this was escalated to firearms discharge was too fast and the cop should face procedure for what he did but it's a 2 way street. If you get told to stop and drop a bladed weapon and you instead advance on the officer with the weapon drawn, you're not helping in de-escalating the situation.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:17
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DariusLikewise posted:I don't know specifically if it was "cops out for blood" or more just that the WPS approached the situation guns drawns, ready to shot and it happened. I don't know if you remember the story from like 2 or 3 years ago about the guy who was in one of the Winnipeg skyways and he had attached a knife to a pole, created a spear and the cops took every situation de-escalation avenue they have available to them in that situation before they finally shot the guy in the leg once. Why was this any different than that? It could have been any number of things that made it different. I'm fully on board with de escalation. I've cried foul against what I thought was inappropriate use of force by police before, but in this case I'm not about to condemn a man at first glance for shooting someone who was closing in on him with a machete.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:36
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supersnowman posted:I'm not trying to say it was either or, I'm trying to say that the fact that armed robbery does not carry a death sentence is irrelevant. That situation should have gotten de-escalated instead of 9 bullet being fired but no matter what crime you committed to begin with is irrelevant if during your encounter with the cops. I think this was escalated to firearms discharge was too fast and the cop should face procedure for what he did but it's a 2 way street. If you get told to stop and drop a bladed weapon and you instead advance on the officer with the weapon drawn, you're not helping in de-escalating the situation. Sorry that part was more an emotional response to some conversations I was in this morning that amounted to "Cops have the discretion to shot an gun in any situation and should be firing to kill". I also live in somewhat rural Manitoba so YMMV. I think we are on the same page as this. The police should be the rational actors in any situation. You never know what the person you are approaching is going through, if they are intoxicated or going through a mental break. The thing that can be controlled in every confrontation is how the police react. I wanted to avoid making assumptions but generally if someone is on a drug like meth, having a psychotic break or even just cornered, like being surrounded by people pointing gun at you and yelling at you 9 times out of 10 that's going to trigger a fight or flight response.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:41
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Vintersorg posted:That's when you die. But are you familiar with the Mexican Sacatripe, used for gutting sheep and other warm-blooded animals?
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Nov 22, 2019 18:42
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vincentpricesboner posted:Of course there should be serious consequences for killing people. We both agree on that. There is going to be in investigation into this shooting and if police are responsible they should be punished severely. I don't think this is that case but we will see. I mean if you want to go back further, most of the escalating violence in Manitoba can be traced back to the provincial government's negligence in deal with the meth crisis. It's been 3 years and all we've gotten is 2 clinics that are open 4 hours a day. This would be a broader discussion, but we should consider our government's role in response to crisis and whether or not a non-response should be considered criminal at a certain point.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:46
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Baronjutter posted:Apparently the whole "Well actually police need to be trained to shoot only to kill, there's no other option" is bullshit because a ton of european police forces actually train to shoot to wound/disable. Do you have a source for this? Because I've been assured many times by Very Serious Gun People in my life that this is foolish and impossible to ask from police.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:51
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In an ideal world the police would be trained only to shoot to thrill
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Nov 22, 2019 18:53
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shooting to injure is loving stupid. They call it "deadly force" for a reason. It is absolutely your LAST option, the option when all other non or less-lethal options have been expended. Only to be used (in theory) when your own life is in imminent danger If you're at point-blank range, you're not trying to aim at a particular body part, you are within arm's reach of someone and attempting to stop someone (theoretically, again) who is actively attempting to kill you. If you are not at point blank range, pistols (especially police types) are not incredibly accurate. Especially with your blood pumping, adrenaline going, etc. You are aiming for center of mass, which gives you better chance of hitting your target. Again, police using a firearm is the very last step on the escalation of force ladder. Unfortunately some police forces jump several rungs to the very top far too often.
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Nov 22, 2019 18:58
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Falstaff posted:Do you have a source for this? Because I've been assured many times by Very Serious Gun People in my life that this is foolish and impossible to ask from police. it may be that Very Serious Gun People are also Very Biased or also Very Turned On By Gun Violence
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Nov 22, 2019 19:02
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MA-Horus posted:Unfortunately some police forces jump several rungs to the very top far too often. Being really close from the very beginning of the altercation like this shooting is also something that should not happen. The cop essentially voided all options he could have had if he was further away. "I have a report of an armed robbery so I'm gonna go close quarter with the suspect as soon as he exits the store" WTF????
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Nov 22, 2019 19:03
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Falstaff posted:Do you have a source for this? Because I've been assured many times by Very Serious Gun People in my life that this is foolish and impossible to ask from police. https://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/shooting-center-mass-im-told-we-kill-everyone-z02sv5zP5OCCcKZt/ It's more that they see firearms as being a viable option in less-lethal situations, whereas here a firearm is considered a lethal force option and is used accordingly.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:10
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supersnowman posted:Being really close from the very beginning of the altercation like this shooting is also something that should not happen. The cop essentially voided all options he could have had if he was further away. There's one angle video where the cop who fired first was standing closer in front of the door at first and walks into the path of the guy with the machete as he's walking off to his left
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Nov 22, 2019 19:15
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Coxswain Balls posted:https://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/shooting-center-mass-im-told-we-kill-everyone-z02sv5zP5OCCcKZt/ That is a really weird and interesting perspective. It goes against everything that western policing teaches about use of deadly force, but it seems to work for the Czechs I guess.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:16
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MA-Horus posted:That is a really weird and interesting perspective. It goes against everything that western policing teaches about use of deadly force, but it seems to work for the Czechs I guess. Truly shocking that gun nuts are super horny for murder and purposely force the idea that it's the only way to enforce the law in North America
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Nov 22, 2019 19:19
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Fundamentally I don't really disagree with the ideal of "guns are for deadly force only" but that's clearly not going where we want it to go, so perhaps we should reconsider things even if we still want to cling to it as an ideal. I mean, changing this one thing isn't going to suddenly stop police from murdering people, it's almost never one single isolated factor. But it being used as a shield against criticism is loving garbage.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:24
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DariusLikewise posted:There's one angle video where the cop who fired first was standing closer in front of the door at first and walks into the path of the guy with the machete as he's walking off to his left The only angle I saw had one officer pretty close to the suspect but I can't tell who shot first. I still think it was a bad move to be this close to begin with. They will obviously need to get close at some point for the arrest but give yourself a margin to start with in case he tries something stupid so you don't only have 1 option to end the event.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:24
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bunnyofdoom posted:https://twitter.com/nicholas_falvo/status/1197631617340043264 Don't forget weed. But yeah, thats about it. He's batting about .002
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Nov 22, 2019 19:26
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I always think of the cop that took down the toronto van incel when I hear people saying WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO https://globalnews.ca/video/4162715/videos-purportedly-capture-police-takedown-of-toronto-van-attack-suspect Assess the situation, keep your distance, don't piss your pants
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Nov 22, 2019 19:32
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prom candy posted:I always think of the cop that took down the toronto van incel when I hear people saying WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO That guy did a legitimately good job handling that. I remember being very surprised at the time.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:34
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vincentpricesboner posted:Don't forget weed. .003, did the federal trans rights bill too
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Nov 22, 2019 19:38
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infernal machines posted:That guy did a legitimately good job handling that. I remember being very surprised at the time. Ditto. I was shocked with how well he handled it. It's how a police officer should handle a situation like that.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:38
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supersnowman posted:I'm not trying to say it was either or, I'm trying to say that the fact that armed robbery does not carry a death sentence is irrelevant. That situation should have gotten de-escalated instead of 9 bullet being fired but no matter what crime you committed to begin with is irrelevant if during your encounter with the cops. I think this was escalated to firearms discharge was too fast and the cop should face procedure for what he did but it's a 2 way street. If you get told to stop and drop a bladed weapon and you instead advance on the officer with the weapon drawn, you're not helping in de-escalating the situation. How do you de-escalate 'a man with a machete is advancing on you while winding up for a swing?' I've always found this video interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai_gZsxTi_4 TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 19:47
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TheCenturion posted:How do you de-escalate 'a man with a machete is advancing on you while winding up for a swing?' I think the idea is the de-escalation should have happened before the guy was winding up the swing.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:49
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TheCenturion posted:How do you de-escalate 'a man with a machete is advancing on you while winding up for a swing?' I get closer to him so I have an excuse to feel in danger. No wait, I wait until they turn around and shoot them in the back out of fear for my own safety.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:51
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Using the situation that resulted in use of deadly force as a priori justification that use of deadly force was required is essentially why we cannot ever expect better from law enforcement. Even in the Yatim/Foricllo case, he was found to have been justified in killing Yatim. Never mind that Yatim was completely alone on an enclosed streetcar that the police had complete control of.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:51
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if you wanna shoot someone in the rear end it's entirely possible. everything else is sophistry.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:58
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I think the idea is the de-escalation should have happened before the guy was winding up the swing. Ok, how do you deescalate a man with a machete committing armed robbery? Hope he doesn't do anything bad to the people inside the store while you, what, exactly? It's really easy to Internet-quarterback when you're not there. Cops absolutely need to be accountable, and absolutely need to have independent oversight with the authority and balls to make poo poo stick, when poo poo is warranted, but sometimes, just sometimes, a bad actor puts themselves into a situation where response in force is not only justified, but moral.
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Nov 22, 2019 19:59
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