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JT Smiley posted:Well yeah that's because racism no longer exists in their minds so anyone stepping up and pointing it out is just playing the race card you see. But in the cause of WWE they've got such a stories history of this kind of poo poo that the people claiming it doesn't exist probably are a bit racist themselves. telling kids that freeing the slaves ended systemic institutional racism was one of the greatest silent crimes of public schooling.
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Nov 22, 2019 20:52
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Did Dave call the comments racist in the newsletter? He didn't say that in the radio segment
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Nov 22, 2019 20:54
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Pinche Rudo posted:Did Dave call the comments racist in the newsletter? He didn't say that in the radio segment
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Nov 22, 2019 21:01
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Everyone who is mad that he's saying Cornette being hated played a part in this needs to think. Cornette being hated definitely played a role in it and it's naďve to think otherwise. Like I said, I got DMs about it and people @ing me the video to signal boost and help cancel Cornette. The fucker's name trended in the US off of a youtube wrestling show, with people posting old clips of him saying the joke 30 years ago. People had receipts ready for when he hosed up again, and it was a loving great night of posting. Cornette got what was coming to him. If he'd been less of an rear end in a top hat overall no one would have batted an eye because racism in wrestling commentary usually doesn't generate a furor. I am not pleased with Dave's comment in the ACH blurb and will be writing Bryan and Dave about it, but Cornette attacking fans definitely played a role in his undoing. It's good as hell.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:04
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Cornette definitely got a receipt. And it was good.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:07
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MassRafTer posted:Everyone who is mad that he's saying Cornette being hated played a part in this needs to think. Cornette being hated definitely played a role in it and it's naïve to think otherwise. Like I said, I got DMs about it and people @ing me the video to signal boost and help cancel Cornette. The fucker's name trended in the US off of a youtube wrestling show, with people posting old clips of him saying the joke 30 years ago. People had receipts ready for when he hosed up again, and it was a loving great night of posting. The problem is that he's dismissing this incident as being something caused by Cornette having enemies looking and waiting for him to screw up with an off color comment, not that this is backlash to something he said that was capital R racist. The former dismisses the whole issue without actually addressing that Cornette did something wrong. Just that people were offended by it.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:22
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When people are more concerned with the well-being of the perpetrators of racism than the victims, they are telling you who they are.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:34
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CascadeBeta posted:The problem is that he's dismissing this incident as being something caused by Cornette having enemies looking and waiting for him to screw up with an off color comment, not that this is backlash to something he said that was capital R racist. The former dismisses the whole issue without actually addressing that Cornette did something wrong. Just that people were offended by it. It's reporting on an actual part of the story. I don't think his piece reflected what Cornette has done properly, but he tried to cover it as an actual story the way the mainstream media does. Which means never using the word racism and both sidesing it. That much worse gets said by people like Orton and Lawler (and Lawler having done much, much worse and still having a national TV job!) and nothing happens is part of the story. Why Cornette got this reaction is part of the story. But for the past couple years, until the last like, 3 weeks Dave has been much better than the mainstream media in acknowledging this business is really lovely to its workers and racist. And even when he's tried to minimize it he's had moments where he then recounts how racist WWE had been and corrects himself. So it is disappointing to see this kind of coverage when he'd done better, and really disappointing to see the line in the ACH story. It's something that should be in there but should be with the context: he deserved it rather than just Dave saying he brought it on himself. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 22, 2019 |
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Nov 22, 2019 21:43
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yeah the ACH line is infuriating.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:46
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The irony here is Dave is the one who reported HHH was the one that ADR wouldn't name making racist jokes backstage and I have an inkling HHH is Dave's source on the WWE side of the ACH story and that's why his reporting has the same tone as some others.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:49
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:Who even are you? What the gently caress are you even talking about. He's alaois He's my friend and one day we will play Buriki-One together
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Nov 22, 2019 21:49
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MassRafTer posted:The irony here is Dave is the one who reported HHH was the one that ADR wouldn't name making racist jokes backstage and I have an inkling HHH is Dave's source on the WWE side of the ACH story and that's why his reporting has the same tone as some others. If the source was Road Dogg, there would've been a line in the Observer about how the shirt should've been gray. But yeah, if you're unhappy with Dave's coverage of this, you should probably write him and tell him so.
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Nov 22, 2019 21:59
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coconono posted:telling kids that freeing the slaves ended systemic institutional racism was one of the greatest silent crimes of public schooling. People talking about a "post-racial society" following Obama's election is an all-time freezing cold take
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Nov 22, 2019 22:03
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what's buriki-one
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Nov 22, 2019 22:14
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Yeah, I'm going to write a Dave letter because I'm honestly confused as to how he got to that take and would love to see him compound on it. He hasn't been shy about talking about racism within WWE so I don't understand how he ended up with something so dismissive of ACH's experiences.
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Nov 22, 2019 22:48
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mactheknife posted:In my experience, making it clear you can do racist poo poo without being consciously, knowingly racist helps I try to offer up my own poo poo and make it "there's stuff I have to work on too, none of us are perfect". That's assuming its a loved one who said something ignorant and we're not talking about like politicians pushing racist as gently caress politics and ideas. Then I just call them racist as gently caress. WSAENOTSOCK posted:These days, not even that. Literal Nazis are back and calling themselves Nazis, but when you talk about it, white people clutch their pearls and tell you "we need to be very careful about that language." But yeah. When you call a literal Nazi a "Nazi" and people roll their eyes its a uphill climb at best. Easily googable information and images help.
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Nov 22, 2019 22:56
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MJeff posted:But yeah, if you're unhappy with Dave's coverage of this, you should probably write him and tell him so. Absolutely, as subscribers we should make a point of letting the guy know we think he hosed up and why. I'd like to think he'd take it onboard, at the very least he needs to hear (aside from idiots on Twitter who try to shittalk literally every single thing he writes) that he's done himself and his readers a disservice whether it was intended or not.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:03
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Yeah the ACH take is what set me off and I'll probably write him on that
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Nov 22, 2019 23:19
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Super No Vacancy posted:what's buriki-one A weird-rear end SNK fighting game that showed up on their DOA attempt at a 3D-capable arcade board, and nowhere else. Re-release Buriki-One, cowards SNK
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Nov 22, 2019 23:24
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Dave was on WOL saying how he’s happy to apologise and rectify mistakes when he makes them so hopefully this is one of those occasions. I’ll probably write him too.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:24
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No man is ever truly good. No man is ever truly evil.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:30
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Dave sitting in his darkened room, waiting for someone, anyone, to pick a fight with him and well, https://twitter.com/bryanalvarez/status/1189378867699412992
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Nov 22, 2019 23:37
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NuclearPotato posted:A weird-rear end SNK fighting game that showed up on their DOA attempt at a 3D-capable arcade board, and nowhere else. it was SNK doing an MMA fighting game in 1999 where you move by pressing buttons and attack by moving the stick, it rules
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Nov 22, 2019 23:51
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MassRafTer posted:Cornette got what was coming to him. If he'd been less of an rear end in a top hat overall no one would have batted an eye because racism in wrestling commentary usually doesn't generate a furor. This makes me wonder, if more people had seen early PWG shows would there be a calls for AEW to drop Excalibur? Because some of the poo poo he said on there with Disco Machine could be pretty close to the bone even if it was clear they were kidding around in a way you might have done in 2003 that you wouldn't do today.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:53
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I know I had problems with PWG commentary back then and got into fights with some folks around here over it, but I think the fundamental difference is Excalibur stopped and if that stuff came up now I expect he'd apologize for it. Like Scorpio Sky is a good example of that just owning your poo poo and apologizing can lead to forgiveness and second chances. Cornette has a much longer pattern, continues to do it, and refuses to apologize.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:56
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Yeah, I think it comes down to the reaction and the apology. I feel like that's the big thing when people get all up in arms about "cancel culture". No one really gets thrown to the wolves if they make a mistake or say something terrible but then apologize and show actual growth. It's only when people double down, gently caress up the apology, and dig their heels in that people truely get upset. Also cancel culture is a dumb concept because no one is entitled to an audience and if you can't get people to like you and support you than you suck at your job as a performer and should find a new job.
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Nov 22, 2019 23:59
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Yeah, find me someone who got "cancelled" for real who gave a solid, no excuses, no equivocation apology for what they did. The people who complain about "cancel culture" are the ones offering no apology at all and saying they did nothing wrong.
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Nov 23, 2019 00:01
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People don't get "cancelled," they just get lucrative Netflix deals
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Nov 23, 2019 00:01
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Benne posted:People don't get "cancelled," they just get lucrative Netflix deals Ordinary people get cancelled, famous people get richer.
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Nov 23, 2019 00:19
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STAC Goat posted:I know I had problems with PWG commentary back then and got into fights with some folks around here over it, but I think the fundamental difference is Excalibur stopped and if that stuff came up now I expect he'd apologize for it. Yeah, that's a fair difference, Excalibur is no longer doing it and would almost certainly show contrition
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Nov 23, 2019 00:20
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https://twitter.com/dril/status/1196361836183994369
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Nov 23, 2019 00:34
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Not a good week for Big Dave. Whitmer calling him out https://twitter.com/BJ_Whitmer/status/1197665033754464256?s=19
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Nov 23, 2019 00:57
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Pinche Rudo posted:Not a good week for Big Dave. Whitmer calling him out please do not bespoil our forums with banned users
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Nov 23, 2019 01:26
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The tweet embedded the entire thread 
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Nov 23, 2019 01:27
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either way, Dave has been letting Gabe and Delirious misreport their houses for years. Dave is turning into Walter Cronkite.
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Nov 23, 2019 01:33
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Every left-leaning wrestling fan is like Patton on a battlefield after the fact, except instead of torn soil, wrecked vehicles, and dead bodies it’s sexism, racism, and shortened lifespans muttering “God help me, I do love it so.”
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Nov 23, 2019 01:51
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Hahaha only Corny.
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Nov 23, 2019 01:58
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if I'm patton the first thing I do is burn that big american flag
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Nov 23, 2019 02:00
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There's a lot here to catch up on/address and I'm not gonna go back and quote all of it, but: I wouldn't be shocked if Dave apologized to people over how he framed the ACH thing, but my default right now is that he won't. The Twitter troll gimmick that, at least for a while, was admittedly him internetting it up, is now something he's internalized. Case in point: When he tweeted that thing a couple months ago about me and Satin in response to someone who mentioned us while halfway baiting him, I sent him an email. The gist was basically this: Based on this and other stuff he'd said (the thing about me making up lies about Bryan) in the last however long he'd been completely hostile to me, I was getting a feeling that someone—maybe Bryan, maybe BOARD trolls, maybe both—was feeding him BS. So I said that I wanted to clear the air; I asked that if there was anything I had said that he took personally/felt has crossed a line, to let me know and I'd apologize. I did add, though, that if he was taking legitimate professional criticisms that way, he shouldn't expect me to change anything. That it was no different from when Maggie Haberman or Chris Cilizza or Jesse Singal or Jake Tapper or whoever screws up. (I think I also said something about understanding how it could be a Raw nerve because of the endless cycle of Russo/Bischoff/Prichard fan poo poo on Twitter, too.) Oh, and also that I didn't appreciate him ad homining my actual work—that he was free to like me, but that given his following in legacy media, it was kind of lovely to do for purely personal reasons. He responded with a rant accusing me and Ryan Satin of wishing he'd/trying to disappear him from wrestling journalism without addressing a single think I actually said. When I tried to follow up on that and asked again what about my actual reporting he was taking issue with, it didn't go anywhere. I take no pleasure in this. I really don't. There absolutely are people who go in on him to stupid degrees, but that doesn't make him above criticism and he acts like it does. As for the specific substance of some of the other stuff here, about both Dave and Cornette: I cut Dave some slack on on the attendance numbers thing, because so much of that is estimates, although he's never really specified attendance vs. direct numbers outside of making it obvious when he got the latter because nothing was rounded and he had the gate info. But there are absolutely times he relies too much on the promoters for them. This is OK when he's provided real documentation like he was during the Monday Night War. Not so much, though, with reporting MLW's NYC attendance as more than twice what that configuration of what that Melrose Ballroom holds. (And about 1/3rd more than GCW drew selling out a the biggest possible wrestling configuration, which I've seen proof of.) Re: the ACH thing, there are two important bits to add that I don't think I saw here: 1. Dave seems to think that the shirt design was a terrible coincidence with no chance of being intentional, which, while bad, at least charts a course towards the "cry racism" line. (That Road Dogg seemingly tried to push them away from a black shirt suggests someone was acting intentionally, as does, arguably, the Triple H "teethier" line.) 2. What makes the "a contract is a contract thing" extra bad and weird and confusing is that he HAS very specifically talked about how most of the WWE contract moves (freezing, not being able to quit, misclassification, etc.) is bullshit, a pure calculation based on knowing most talent can't afford to fight it in court. As for Cornette... Something that's largely gone unsaid, which in some circles is due to unfamiliarity, is that even if one might think that Corny legitimately has no malevolent intent when he says racist poo poo in 2019, not only is that an excuse, but he clearly had such intent with some of the awful poo poo he said in the mid-'90s. (And I don't want to belabor the Dave stuff, but that Dave largely avoided covering most of the worst stuff Jim said, mainly involving the guys at the Torch and their families, plays a role in this on multiple levels.) Jim still holds those grudges today, too, and isn't shy about it which is...interesting given the longtime whispers that at least some of the answering machine messages were archived permanently. (And that's even before you get into the fact that Wade, Bruce, and even Madden were completely, 100% in the right.) He admits that he has severe anger issues and they may have been at their worst in the mid-'90s—he's apologized for taking a bat to K.C. O'Connor's car and basically said that it was a larger stress/anger think that he doesn't put on his dispute with K.C.—but doesn't throw his issues with the Torch in there. (That K.C. and Bruce are longtime buddies just complicates everything.) All of this is to say that, even if you want to be charitable to Cornette, he has a history that is pretty far in the direction of "doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt" when it comes to saying racist poo poo, especially about black people. Hell, and I say this as, when push comes to shove, who, even as lovely as all of this stuff is, doesn't think he's consciously malevolent to...well, most of the groups he's said bigoted things about. He honestly does seem genuine with his support for, say, Black Lives Matter and frustration with violent overpolicing in black communities. Those are, at least in my experience, not the issues that people denouncing racism for show go for. And I've been privy to at least one of the conversations he and Brian have had (mentioned on the new JCE) about how Jim sees anti-Semitism as being egregiously stupid to the point of confusing him. But there's internalized poo poo there as a byproduct of being a boomer from the south who's spent his entire adult life in the wrestling business, being so technology-averse that he's not going to be educated about deeper modern sociopolitical issues, even by osmosis, his severe anger issues, and his desire to go for the most hurt barb in arguments. Maybe I'm naive for thinking that the 2019 Jim Cornette he doesn't consciously think that, say, black people are lesser or different in any way that they've been stereotyped to be. I'm willing to own that. But I'm also realistic enough to know that it has no bearing on the situation at hand because of all of the poo poo he's said, both in his more active days in the business and in the last six months or so. JFC, that was too long. I'm sorry.
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Nov 23, 2019 07:07
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Bix, friend, not trying to hate but that's like... really hard to parse at points.
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Nov 23, 2019 07:14
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