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Zulily Zoetrope posted:There’s even a joke about this in one of the early desert strips. I can’t be assed to go find it (on mobile), but it was basically: I can be assed! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html
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Nov 20, 2019 17:25
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The real thing to worry about is if some wizard tries inventing fantasy bitcoin and then you've got to work out if there's enough speculators out there who will wind up giving value to a very energy-intensive long list of numbers.IMJack posted:If you want an adventurer economy to make any kind of sense you basically need to divorce it from the common economy completely. There has to be a reason ordinary people can't or won't deal in the kind of wealth monsters hoard and adventurers hunt. I don't see the problem. I thought the implication was that dragon hoards are mostly stolen anyways. They'd probably prefer more secure coinage instead of fiat currency, but it'd be funny to bust open a dragon hoard and find out that they invested heavily in confederate bills before going to sleep for a hundred years. With monster societies, probably somewhere out there some merchants are trading back and forth between nations, giving value to foreign currencies even if there's normally hostility between nations. Also there's plenty of goods that you could take and get some value out of by selling off. ImpAtom posted:So an odd question: I'd like to know if it works with uncut diamonds, like if you've got a big blorb of raw diamond but you don't wanna waste time and money getting a jeweler to make it into something high-value, will magic just appreciate the effort and see the diamond-potential inside and remove that? Will the whole raw diamond get removed? If you made your spellcasting big enough, could you harness the power of diamonds that have yet to be removed from a mountain? Could you destroy a mountain by using its ingredients for spellcasting? Obviously most of this is the DM's discretion, but with how many people out there like constructing elaborate things out of exploiting peculiarities of rule wording, I wonder if there's been a system out there that was purpose-built that kind of play, or writing a magic system that's designed to work with real-world physics so players could manually build bigger spells. Seems like some nerds would enjoy that.
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Nov 20, 2019 18:01
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I see the Jrusteli are trying to breach reality again. How typical. Where's a gift bringer when you need one?
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Nov 20, 2019 18:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:The real thing to worry about is if some wizard tries inventing fantasy bitcoin and then you've got to work out if there's enough speculators out there who will wind up giving value to a very energy-intensive long list of numbers. Lyndon Hardy came up with that in Secret of the Sixth Magic back in 1984. There's a mercantile island nation in that book whose currency is is magically enchanted coins (essentially having Continual Light cast on them). Then some evil mage wrecks the economy by dispelling all the spells, and things go south from there. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 18:12
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Someone should run a campaign with a hidden subplot based on Musa I of Mali; as the party goes through their adventures, the amount of gold and items, etc. they dump into local economies is devastatingly destabilizing. People's savings become worthless because the adventurers generously give out gold as tips and gifts; negotiated contracts and rents are thrown into disarray. They don't realize until they have cause to retrace their path and find economic disaster everywhere they went, and have to figure out how to reverse the problem.
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Nov 20, 2019 18:23
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What about coinage that is itself magical, in a way that's not easy to replicate? You're never going to completely stop counterfeiters, especially not in a world of magic but the goal isn't really to stop them. It's just to make it as difficult as possible. If the only people who can effectively counterfeit your coins are capable of casting fifth level spells, that very much narrows down the list of suspects as well as letting you accurately gauge the force response necessary by reading the CL on the counterfeit coin's enchantment. Edit: "CL 9. Looks like another wizard trying out his new spells by making fake coins. Send in Jones's crew, he just got his first level in that prestige class he's been talking about for months." "And this one is... CL 17. I'll inform the minister, you speak to the judges about getting a warrant for a Vaarsuvius's Greater Scrying." girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 18:27
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PMush Perfect posted:What about coinage that is itself magical, in a way that's not easy to replicate? You're never going to completely stop counterfeiters, especially not in a world of magic but the goal isn't really to stop them. It's just to make it as difficult as possible. If the only people who can effectively counterfeit your coins are capable of casting fifth level spells, that very much narrows down the list of suspects as well as letting you accurately gauge the force response necessary by reading the CL on the counterfeit coin's enchantment. "Arcane Mark of the royal mint" isn't a bad ideas, nor is it fifth level. And I'm already inventing a subplot of anarchists with scrolls of dispel magic for a first level pick a side adventure Edit: aww it's immune to dispel ikanreed fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 18:34
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That's the problem, it needs to be high level. At least high enough that anyone who can cast it has better things to do with their time than making a dozen fake gold coins in a day. What's the maximum spell level for an unlimited use wand? You want it one higher than that.
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Nov 20, 2019 18:40
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In the Ravnica splatbook for D&D, the guilds who coin all the money are the ones that train and employ law-mages who are both the best defense against this kind of legal-magic bullshit and the ones in the best position to abuse it. This fiat currency is backed by the full faith and credit of the ghost of a long dead, insanely powerful oligarch who doesn't know who you are but will happily call in the debt against your soul. I have ideas about law magic in a setting full of shyster lawyers and political intrigue. IMJack fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Nov 20, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 18:47
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Quote is not edit
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Nov 20, 2019 18:49
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PMush Perfect posted:That's the problem, it needs to be high level. At least high enough that anyone who can cast it has better things to do with their time than making a dozen fake gold coins in a day. What's the maximum spell level for an unlimited use wand? You want it one higher than that. I don't like high magic worldbuilding that relies on high level casters
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Nov 20, 2019 20:24
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ikanreed posted:"Arcane Mark of the royal mint" isn't a bad ideas, nor is it fifth level. Technically it's a first level spell that's so deliberately unoptimized and full of inefficiencies that you need a fifth level slot to cast it.
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Nov 21, 2019 00:53
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ikanreed posted:I don't like high magic worldbuilding that relies on high level casters "The Boys" but for wizards.
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Nov 21, 2019 01:01
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A magic anti-forgery system is a neat idea, but the spell would need to approachable enough that the mint could produce it in bulk. If it would take the world's most powerful archmage to produce a dozen gold pieces a day, that applies to the kingdom too. It would be more straightforward to make the spell simple but very easy to detect when someone is using it. You've even got an early adventure idea in having a party then have to enforce upon them.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:20
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Hm, if you can't put it in a wand, you might need some expensive and specialized equipment to mint the coins at any kind of reasonable speed. Shame there's no precedent for governments using anything like that to make money...
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Nov 21, 2019 02:23
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Pft, primitive and backwards money technology. Gimmie modern polymers.
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Nov 21, 2019 03:33
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MikeJF posted:Pft, primitive and backwards money technology. Gimmie modern polymers. Seriously those untearable Australian notes are neat as heck.
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Nov 21, 2019 03:49
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Pope Guilty posted:Seriously those untearable Australian notes are neat as heck. Working in UK retail our polymer notes are the bane of my existence they just don't lie flat
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Nov 21, 2019 12:40
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IMJack posted:In the Ravnica splatbook for D&D, the guilds who coin all the money are the ones that train and employ law-mages who are both the best defense against this kind of legal-magic bullshit and the ones in the best position to abuse it. This fiat currency is backed by the full faith and credit of the ghost of a long dead, insanely powerful oligarch who doesn't know who you are but will happily call in the debt against your soul. Let me bring your attention to the Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone. If you haven’t read it, it’s about law/Econ wizards using dead gods as collateral on loans.
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Nov 21, 2019 15:24
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navyjack posted:Let me bring your attention to the Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone. If you haven’t read it, it’s about law/Econ wizards using dead gods as collateral on loans. Sometimes the line between high concept and high functioning isn't so clear
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Nov 21, 2019 15:37
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:There’s even a joke about this in one of the early desert strips. I can’t be assed to go find it (on mobile), but it was basically: So what this just made occur to me is that maybe the value of stuff is all actually just centered around how much of it you need to cast a spell. 500 GP of rubies is always 500 GP of rubies because GP itself is defined by that quantity of rubies. You can in theory sell 500 GP of rubies for 400 GP but it is still 500 GP of rubies. Or maybe I just need some loving sleep.
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Nov 23, 2019 04:10
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Makes sense, kind of like how a barrel of oil varies in price but there's still the same amount of energy in that volume of crude.
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Nov 23, 2019 04:35
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wiegieman posted:Makes sense, kind of like how a barrel of oil varies in price but there's still the same amount of energy in that volume of crude. So, bearing in mind I know literally nothing about physics or economics, does that mean that the existence of divine spells ensures monetary value is a universal constant? I assume that has some pretty fascinating implications for D&Donomics, but damned if I know what they are.
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Nov 23, 2019 04:44
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Thaddius the Large posted:So, bearing in mind I know literally nothing about physics or economics, does that mean that the existence of divine spells ensures monetary value is a universal constant? I assume that has some pretty fascinating implications for D&Donomics, but damned if I know what they are. I would say that the value of things like diamonds has been inflated due to the ease of exchanging them on the Interplanar Market, as they are already pegged to the Resurrection Standard. Indirectly, the GP is related to the Resurrection Standard via the value of Diamonds, but were the need for resurrections to increase without a commensurate increase in diamond supply, what is officially valued as 5000 GP of diamonds may end up costing considerably more as price controls collapse. wiegieman fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Nov 23, 2019 |
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Nov 23, 2019 04:51
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Basically, don't use the same units for weight and currency. I'm looking at you, pounds, lira, livre, and marks. It's easy shorthand for when players wanna stock up on components and DMs don't wanna deal with commodity price calculations and haggling I guess. Although if you're tracking components all that much and don't wanna deal with minutia, I don't know what's going on.
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Nov 23, 2019 04:53
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wiegieman posted:I would say that the value of things like diamonds has been inflated due to the ease of exchanging them on the Interplanar Market, as they are already pegged to the Resurrection Standard. Indirectly, the GP is related to the Resurrection Standard via the value of Diamonds, but were the need for resurrections to increase without a commensurate increase in diamond supply, what is officially valued as 5000 GP of diamonds may end up costing considerably more as price controls collapse. where's the post about the wish economy? the idea is that any society controlled by wizards over a certain level would use the casting of wish, and therefore experience cost, as the fundamental unit of currency and anything unobtainable with a wish was to be considered at fractional value based on the max gold one casting could give you
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Nov 23, 2019 05:06
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Mister Olympus posted:and anything unobtainable with a wish was to be considered at fractional value based on the max gold one casting could give you So since you can't wish for more wishes, what's the value of a wish? 
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Nov 23, 2019 13:31
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:So since you can't wish for more wishes, what's the value of a wish? Natural male enhancement
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Nov 23, 2019 13:36
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:So since you can't wish for more wishes, what's the value of a wish?
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Nov 23, 2019 14:37
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There used to be a really neat blog series about the intersection of economics and D&Disms like 5000 GP worth of diamonds. Eventually it got into stranger topics, like how the real money isn't in wizardry but in supplying sheep for spellbooks. But it throws a database entry error at me now so it seems to be lost to the ages. Too bad, I really enjoyed the posts about tranches and moral hazards. Imagine an investment that goes to the last surviving member of the initial group of investors.
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Nov 23, 2019 20:45
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habituallyred posted:There used to be a really neat blog series about the intersection of economics and D&Disms like 5000 GP worth of diamonds. Eventually it got into stranger topics, like how the real money isn't in wizardry but in supplying sheep for spellbooks. But it throws a database entry error at me now so it seems to be lost to the ages. You are looking for Dungeonomics.
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Nov 23, 2019 20:50
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Ars Magica, which is about wizards in almost-historical middle ages Europe, has a sidebar about how the major wizard order that by default all player wizards belong to has laws about how much magically created silver and gold is allowed to be introduced to local economies, because the wizards figured out that inflation is a problem.
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Nov 23, 2019 21:04
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wiegieman posted:You are looking for Dungeonomics. Thanks, that is the right one. Don't know what I found before.
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Nov 23, 2019 21:50
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habituallyred posted:Too bad, I really enjoyed the posts about tranches and moral hazards. Imagine an investment that goes to the last surviving member of the initial group of investors. Isn't that just a tontine?
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Nov 23, 2019 22:58
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Yes.
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Nov 23, 2019 22:59
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You can get a surprising amount of flavor out of a D&D-style game if you deliberately scale back the economy to a more medieval arrangement, where an average peasant farmer would get excited over a handful of silver and has probably never seen an actual gold piece, let alone possessed one. I feel that's one of the weird things that got kinda lost in the transition to 3.0, where people toss around four- and five-digit sums of GP like it's not a big deal.
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Nov 23, 2019 23:13
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Wanderer posted:You can get a surprising amount of flavor out of a D&D-style game if you deliberately scale back the economy to a more medieval arrangement, where an average peasant farmer would get excited over a handful of silver and has probably never seen an actual gold piece, let alone possessed one.
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Nov 23, 2019 23:37
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Wanderer posted:You can get a surprising amount of flavor out of a D&D-style game if you deliberately scale back the economy to a more medieval arrangement, where an average peasant farmer would get excited over a handful of silver and has probably never seen an actual gold piece, let alone possessed one. Thats a byproduct of money being a form of secondary advancement in 3/4e. Older editions and to some extent 5e don't really know what they want PCs to spend money on, so it just becomes a score counter.
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Nov 24, 2019 00:31
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1e, weirdly, it's the one that got this best, you need absolute shitloads of money to level with a bonkers arbitrary dm multiplier based on 'how well you played your class'. We just ignored those rules when we played tho.
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Nov 24, 2019 01:05
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sebmojo posted:1e, weirdly, it's the one that got this best, you need absolute shitloads of money to level with a bonkers arbitrary dm multiplier based on 'how well you played your class'. We just ignored those rules when we played tho. Not only that, characters had expenses? Something like 100gp per lvl per month? Yeah, pretty much everyone ignored that.
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Nov 24, 2019 01:10
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