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god I hope they depose these scumbags and then lock them up for the rest of their natural lives, including el presidenta temporal
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Nov 24, 2019 01:20
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:That is an extremely odd way to think. I am imagining a detective investigating a killing, and then saying to his partner, "Establishing that it was murder doesn't tell us anything." What the gently caress does that mean? This analogy is actually a good example of why I avoid semantic debates. The definition of murder is contingent on local laws, customs, and religious beliefs. The exact same killing that counts as a murder in one jurisdiction might be a justifiable homicide in another. Defining a killing as a murder is a subjective exercise -- but you don't have to let your feelings about the act depend on whether something meets an arbitrary legal threshold. THS posted:lmao you are so much loving dumber than you think you are if I can't be smart I can at least be right. Cup Runneth Over posted:https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/United-Nations-Presents-a-Peace-Building-Agreement-for-Bolivia-20191123-0003.html that doesn't sound democratic to me at all though? Not sure why you'd think I'd believe that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 24, 2019 04:17
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Squalid posted:This analogy is actually a good example of why I avoid semantic debates. The definition of murder is contingent on local laws, customs, and religious beliefs. The exact same killing that counts as a murder in one jurisdiction might be a justifiable homicide in another. Defining a killing as a murder is a subjective exercise -- but you don't have to let your feelings about the act depend on whether something meets an arbitrary legal threshold. you think this sounds smart?
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Nov 24, 2019 04:18
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woozy pawsies posted:you think this sounds smart? i don't really try to sound smart. for some reason there's a bunch of people who care a lot about the words I use or w/e the gently caress, and keep asking me for explanations, so there it is. yes it's pretty lame but hey this is DnD so. . .
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Nov 24, 2019 04:28
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Doctor Jeep posted:god I hope they depose these scumbags and then lock them up for the rest of their natural lives, including el presidenta temporal It's the only humane and logical path forward and to argue against it is mierda.
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Nov 24, 2019 05:01
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you seem stupid, and also evil
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Nov 24, 2019 05:05
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Squalid posted:This analogy is actually a good example of why I avoid semantic debates. The definition of murder is contingent on local laws, customs, and religious beliefs. The exact same killing that counts as a murder in one jurisdiction might be a justifiable homicide in another. Defining a killing as a murder is a subjective exercise -- but you don't have to let your feelings about the act depend on whether something meets an arbitrary legal threshold.
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Nov 24, 2019 07:12
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Jean Paul-Sartre posted:Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
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Nov 24, 2019 07:36
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Squalid posted:This analogy is actually a good example of why I avoid semantic debates. The definition of murder is contingent on local laws, customs, and religious beliefs. The exact same killing that counts as a murder in one jurisdiction might be a justifiable homicide in another. Defining a killing as a murder is a subjective exercise -- but you don't have to let your feelings about the act depend on whether something meets an arbitrary legal threshold. I really want to map out the psychology of a thought process that could possibly have been used to conclude "this paragraph here will help my case and be helpful to goals such as helping people understand that my positions are, actually, reasonable and worth listening to"
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Nov 24, 2019 08:07
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Kavros posted:I really want to map out the psychology of a thought process that could possibly have been used to conclude "this paragraph here will help my case and be helpful to goals such as helping people understand that my positions are, actually, reasonable and worth listening to"
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Nov 24, 2019 08:26
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Squalid posted:I think you might be confusing me with someone else? I don't know where you are going with this. If it sometimes seems I'm playing coy I do make a point of avoiding arguments over subjective issues or how we should feel about events, since those are discussions that do not interest me. If you must know, I've repeatedly called this a coup including on the last page. I don't know why that would interest you though, establishing it was a coup doesn't tell us anything. You've sort of indicated before that you like debating, and obviously there's a reason you're posting, so instead of adding to the dogpile I'll tell you what I think. Establishing what words we're going to use and what they mean is crucial to having a debate (or more broadly, "talking about a thing"), because otherwise we'd be operating with different words and definitions and then we'd just be wasting time because we'd be talking about different things. It's also useful to learn more or less where everyone stands (roughly, what you think about the thing, or thoughts you've had about it so far) so we can find common ground, examine those ideas and maybe learn something new. Obviously definitions are a point of contention because it frames the debate (this is why people are going "say it's a coup motherfucker" at you). You'll just have to accept that as a natural part of talking about thing. If you refuse to engage at that basic level, people will: - Become annoyed because you're injecting yourself in the conversation while making it almost impossible to communicate with you. - Suspect that you harbor contradictions or horrible opinions (that you know are horrible!) that you're afraid to let others examine; you've decided up front that you're going to keep them. That's why you're not being taken seriously right now. Also, other people are much smarter than you think, and they can smell fear!
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Nov 24, 2019 09:52
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So, as things stand now, the bill calling the new elections has sailed through both chambers. The attempt by MAS to also write a bill to end persecution of their members (including Morales and his VP) was also passed, but the "president" immediately announced that she was not going to enact it and that it was a horrible attempt at granting immunity to terrorists and seditionists. Mainstream media in Bolivia have been constantly going on and on about all the MAS terrorism that is supposedly ongoing currently. I can understand why MAS wanted to support this bill, because it is far easier to root for the protest on the internet than to have your supporters and friends and family arrested or shot at every night, but I think strategically they are in a no-win situation now. The coup government clearly is not going to hold back on their persecution, they already refused to take back the "military immunity" bill, and their media blitz campaign is completely off the rails, not only does truth not matter anymore, but plausibility seems to have gone right out of the window as far as concerns go. Turns out, deeply embedded racism allows you to believe any conspiracy story about the target of your racism, who'd have known. I am sure we will soon see wobbuffet reappear, tearfully celebrating not only the return to full democracy, but also to celebrate the totally not outlandishly stupid trumped up prosecutions of the MAS functionaries. After all, every major newspaper and tv channel says it's true! Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 10:19
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https://twitter.com/douglasavila644/status/1198548607110144001?s=19 Good citizens trying to block access to the oas human rights commission so the indigenous hoodlums can't give testimony.
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Nov 24, 2019 12:11
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Spice World War II posted:https://twitter.com/douglasavila644/status/1198548607110144001?s=19 So has the rationale behind all these wastepeople collaborators been "let's get Evo out, he's the president for the indios, let's take the country back from the indios"? It's so drat depressing.
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Nov 24, 2019 12:28
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Yes and many of them don't even pretend otherwise. I mean, I they immediately denounced the oas report as biased when morales declared that he would consider it binding, and when the report said that there should be new elections but morales should be allowed to finish his constitutional term, they had a coup anyway
Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 12:46
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This whole coup is obviously a white supremacist project and always was.
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Nov 24, 2019 13:02
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https://twitter.com/guardianworld/status/1198589089999544320 https://twitter.com/tomphillipsin/status/1198592590913974272 We'll have the the bigliest, most free, most fantastic elections in Bolivia in January! 
Spice World War II fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 14:33
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Spice World War II posted:https://twitter.com/guardianworld/status/1198589089999544320 given all the liberal buzz about "lock her up" when it was clearly an empty threat, one hopes that this vow gets similar treatment. lol
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Nov 24, 2019 14:35
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V. Illych L. posted:given all the liberal buzz about "lock her up" when it was clearly an empty threat, one hopes that this vow gets similar treatment. The damage to society isn't being done by actually locking him (or her, Americans currently see) up though
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Nov 24, 2019 14:38
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And they are just going to argue with the most straight face "hey, he broke the law, he tried to fraud an election! obviously he cant be allowed to try again, and have to be arrested. he is criminal!". And most mainstream media will reproduce that acritically edit: even if you believe everything against Lula or Evo and the others, the practical reality in LA is that governments are rotten to the core and always being bombarded with foreign interests. So either you play the game, paying the elites to allow you to govern and taking often not very democratic protections against the big brother up in the north, or you wont be able to do anything and will be ejected from power on the first opportunity. But, when you do, they will accuse you of corruption and tyranny and use that as a pretext to bring you down, while the world claps in agreement "democracy as been restored" Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 14:39
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The narrative has long moved way beyond electoral fraud. The "opulent" flat at the central government tower clearly proves he was embezzling tons of money, he has worked with the cuban medical spy mission to subvert democracy the whole time, he is inciting terrorism by calling his supporters to blockade the cities (only white people are allowed to blockade things), and he is of course part of the giant cuban drug empire, taking money from Bolivia and giving it to Cuba. Basically every smear from the last 14 years will be "conclusively proven" in the court of mainstream media before the elections even happen
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Nov 24, 2019 14:44
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https://erbol.com.bo/nacional/pactan-ley-de-garant%C3%ADas-pol%C3%ADticas-y-gobierno-se-abre-modificar-decreto-4078 A longer article describing the negotiations between the coup government and assembly and social organizations. The coup government did agree to give guarantees that every political actor would once again be afforded all their constitutional rights and protections, and they agreed to repeal the military carte blanche act, but got the concession from the other side that the military would be allowed to still be used strictly in the protection of national infrastructure like the gas plant. All in all it reads like the MAS and unions etc got some concessions out of the coup government in return for agreeing to new elections. They did however not get any specific guarantees for Evo Morales or his VP (who currently are still on the most wanted lists in the media) beyond the general commitment that constitutional rights and processes would be followed. However, here's the kicker of course: in the very last paragraph, it says that both the law that sets new elections and the modalities of said elections, as well as the law that guarantees all rights and protections for everyone, were supposed to be enacted at the same time, today at 1700. Both chambers voted for both bills. The "president" then of course unilaterally announced that the election bill would be signed into law at 10 am, and the constitutional guarantees bill would follow "later" 
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Nov 24, 2019 16:20
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Squalid posted:This analogy is actually a good example of why I avoid semantic debates. The definition of murder is contingent on local laws, customs, and religious beliefs. The exact same killing that counts as a murder in one jurisdiction might be a justifiable homicide in another. Defining a killing as a murder is a subjective exercise -- but you don't have to let your feelings about the act depend on whether something meets an arbitrary legal threshold. Are you assuming in my example that the detective in question doesn't know where he is? HE KNOWS WHERE HE IS. HE KNOWS WHAT THE LAWS ARE. YOU KNOW WHERE BOLIVIA IS. YOU KNOW WHAT COUPS ARE. IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL CONCEPT. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 16:42
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Christ, last time I checked Morales was calling for new elections, with some arguable fraud having occured in the prior as per the OAS report. Now they're rounding up MAS leadership without charges? So much for a fair re-vote, ffs.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:25
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Sounds like a real bang-up restoration of democracy that literally respecting constitutional rights is a concession that had to be dragged out of the coup government. Of course they immediately went back on their word, but that just goes to show that you can never trust fascists to negotiate in good faith.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:40
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Rust Martialis posted:Christ, last time I checked Morales was calling for new elections, with some arguable fraud having occured in the prior as per the OAS report. Now they're rounding up MAS leadership without charges? So much for a fair re-vote, ffs. you know, i'm beginning to think the people screaming "DEATH TO THE INFIDELS" at the indigenous population, for voting for morales, may not be operating in good faith when they say this is all about democracy!
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Nov 24, 2019 18:45
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Okay at this point I would really like to see the whole proceedings in full unedited video, because the news are getting stranger every moment. https://telocuentonews.com/site/bolivia-mas-asegura-que-ni-morales-ni-garcia-seran-candidatos/ Interview with the vice president of the chamber of deputies and member of the MAS, relevant quote quote:Por otro lado, explicó que el MAS no presentará candidatos para miembros del Tribunal Supremo Electoral (TSE) de cara al proceso de renovación que está previsto que realice la Asamblea Legislativa. “Les vamos a ganar con el TSE que ellos vayan a elegir y nosotros vamos a elecciones con nuevos candidatos”, dijo. So, in addition to conceding that neither Morales nor his VP (there is not even a chance to construct a constitutional case for the VP not being allowed) are not allowed to run, they also conceded that even though constitutionally the supreme electoral tribunal is selected by parliament, the MAS will not field any candidates for the tribunal at all. Instead they are "going to win the election with whatever tribunal the other parties chose". This feels like they are just conceding their rights completely, and the second bill guaranteeing basic constitutional rights for any of their supporters or members still hasn't been ratified by the "president"
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Nov 24, 2019 19:46
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there is ultimately only one moral response as a citizen of the us and it is to blow the loving heads off of the people who are responsible for this poo poo over here
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Nov 24, 2019 19:47
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loving general strike, bring the country to its knees, blockade the roads and besiege the cities until the junta stands the gently caress down
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Nov 24, 2019 20:35
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Tollymain posted:there is ultimately only one moral response as a citizen of the us and it is to blow the loving heads off of the people who are responsible for this poo poo over here Been waiting since the 1930s, but do take your time lol no rush
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Nov 24, 2019 20:42
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Meanwhile in Uruguay, the right-wing candidate is winning the presidential elections.   It is pretty loving close though, still hoping it turns around. Negostrike fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 25, 2019 |
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Nov 25, 2019 01:57
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Negrostrike posted:Meanwhile in Uruguay, the right-wing candidate is winning the presidential elections. Hey, you've had a left leaning government for a while, you know how the wheel turns, now it's your turn to get a Macri for a couple years and make things poo poo and then it's back to the left again
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Nov 25, 2019 02:15
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Negrostrike posted:Meanwhile in Uruguay, the right-wing candidate is winning the presidential elections.
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Nov 25, 2019 02:38
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Manini Rios (former head of the armed forces, extreme right) this morning sent out a video calling the armed forces not to vote for Martinez, and a military publication also had an editorial about extirpating Marxism from the national horizon next week. In the unlikely event that Martinez ends up winning, you can bet that the Bolivian playbook will be in play.
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Nov 25, 2019 02:39
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Yeah it was pretty tight but that tiny 30k advantage appears insurmountable now. Seems like the FA would've had a minority in both houses anyway. Y'all had a good run. 😔
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Nov 25, 2019 04:24
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It's gonna be pretty tough, going forward, to argue against any remotely leftist head of government purging the officer corps and putting everyone to the right of Cesar Chavez in a forced labor camp, the very instant they have any kind of mandate to do so if not sooner.
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Nov 25, 2019 04:58
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So I just saw bolivia TV announce that the senate mas majority agreed to indefinitely table the bill that would reaffirm that all constitutional protections and rights would be afforded to them. The one that reports initially said would be enacted alongside the election bill. At this point this is more than admitting complete defeat, you get the impression there were snipers in the room the whole time, and just off camera
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Nov 25, 2019 05:12
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:It's gonna be pretty tough, going forward, to argue against any remotely leftist head of government purging the officer corps and putting everyone to the right of Cesar Chavez in a forced labor camp, the very instant they have any kind of mandate to do so if not sooner. eh, i guess i could use the exercise
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Nov 25, 2019 05:32
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:It's gonna be pretty tough, going forward, to argue against any remotely leftist head of government purging the officer corps and putting everyone to the right of Cesar Chavez in a forced labor camp, the very instant they have any kind of mandate to do so if not sooner. I think that, at the very least, this is why you should seize peoples' wealth/assets, and it's definitely fair to outright ban right-wingers from political positions (or high ranking military ones). In a reasonable world, any remotely right-wing ideology would just be treated the same way being an explicit Nazi is in Germany. Most people wouldn't disagree that it's okay to ban Nazis from political office, so there's nothing fundamentally outlandish about simply expanding that category in a way that makes sense. In practice this would likely lead to (at least) the forced labor outcome, since attempts to do this would likely be met with violent defiance.
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Nov 25, 2019 06:53
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GreyjoyBastard posted:eh, i guess i could use the exercise e: ah ha, I misunderstood this post. Good show. Thanks for explaining the joke to me, MSDOS. Majorian fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Nov 25, 2019 |
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Nov 25, 2019 08:58
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