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Counteroffers really depend on the company and their culture. I work with people who's bosses couldn't get them more money from HR or the promotion without going the counter offer route. I think we call all agree that situation is pretty hosed up, but it worked out for them in the end. They got the money they wanted, and they're happy. They've stuck around for years and the working relationship didn't suffer at all. Their boss actually told them, "I can't get you what you want right now, go get another offer and I'll be able to counter though". Dysfunctional? Yes, but that's the reality of the Austin software engineering market and our HR dept. The issue I have with accepting counter offers, is it's a 1 time thing. You can't keep going back to that well every couple of years, but if you're a valuable team member, and otherwise happy, sometimes it can work out in everyone's favor. You've got to decide if the reasons you went looking for another job were just about money, or really about other things as well. While I do not agree with the sentiment that if you accept the offer you're on borrowed time and they'll look for a way to get rid of you when it's convenient for them, you should always be prepared fiscally to be out of work for at least 3 (preferably 6) months no matter what. That way if they do get rid of you, you're prepared.
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Nov 19, 2019 18:39
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skipdogg posted:Counteroffers really depend on the company and their culture. Good stuff. I managed to get a counter offer, slightly more than the new company, but backdated to my review date was was back in August, so I should get a raise and a chunk of back pay. I didn’t get the vibe that I’d be on borrowed time, in fact my boss seemed super desperate to keep me and didn’t hesitate to make me a verbal offer right away. Looks like I’m sticking around my current place for at least a while.
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Nov 19, 2019 23:39
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As I mentioned previously, I got into a tough-nosed negotiation about a project I'd successfully completed for our department and lobbied for a stipend to be made a permanent part of my total compensation going forward. Unfortunately, my department head decided she wouldn't be making that decision. Instead, I improved my BATNA to a nearby job that is offering me a 25% pay raise.
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Nov 21, 2019 17:32
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:As I mentioned previously, I got into a tough-nosed negotiation about a project I'd successfully completed for our department and lobbied for a stipend to be made a permanent part of my total compensation going forward. Unfortunately, my department head decided she wouldn't be making that decision. Instead, I improved my BATNA to a nearby job that is offering me a 25% pay raise. Congrats! Did they act "surprised" when you gave your notice?
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Nov 21, 2019 19:50
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There are few greater satisfactions than dropping that sort of bomb on an employer that stubbornly refuses to give adequate raises/promotions/market adjustments/whatever. Especially if they cited their own "market research" about salary data as justification. "Yeah, well, my market research says I'm 25% underpaid so bye"
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Nov 21, 2019 20:01
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Just had a friend go through some negotiation with his job. I think his situation was pretty unique and probably doesn't apply to most of us but I thought I'd include it here anyways. Basically he's the CTO (they don't actually have a CTO) equivalent at a small/mid sized started up, was employee number 3. His comp was around 200k in the Bay area plus I'm not sure how much equity. He owns about ~1% of the company. He wasn't happy with the direction the CEO was taking the company and also thought there was a non 0% chance he would be fired from his current position/forced into an individual contributor role. He ended up quitting and then came back to the company after they gave into pretty much all of his demands: 20% increase in base salary 50% increase in the equity that he will receive annually as part of his comp The CEO agreed to work on being a better CEO, apparently multiple people have had some complaints He keeps his current role as SVP The company will hire a CTO He gets 3 months severance if they fire him His goal now is to hangout for at least another several years and get them to a billion dollar valuation and then maybe make his exit. I'm not really familiar with the startup/tech industry. Any glaring red flags in what went down? It sounds to me he did pretty well for himself overall.
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Nov 21, 2019 20:50
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bamhand posted:Just had a friend go through some negotiation with his job. I think his situation was pretty unique and probably doesn't apply to most of us but I thought I'd include it here anyways.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:19
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Yeah like I said I don't know much about the industry. They're currently at ~170m so they need to grow 6x from where they are now. I think they went from 3 people to their current level in around 5-6 years. He says their CEO is a smart dude but can be stubborn at times. And I guess he's acknowledged that and working on being better.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:27
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bamhand posted:....get them to a billion dollar valuation.... Yes, that's the glaring red flag. At least he's getting his for now (salary), but it's important to not get into the sunk cost fallacy poo poo.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:36
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bamhand posted:Yeah like I said I don't know much about the industry. They're currently at ~170m so they need to grow 6x from where they are now. I think they went from 3 people to their current level in around 5-6 years. He says their CEO is a smart dude but can be stubborn at times. And I guess he's acknowledged that and working on being better. That's not really how valuations work in the valley.
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Nov 21, 2019 21:39
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All right, so I'm kind of confused. I was supposed to hear back from the recruiter at the local company, but he never pushed forward the next round of phone interviews. Now the original overall company recruiter got in touch saying he's been kept posted about the process and wondering whether I was still open to looking at other subsidiaries on the West Coast. Seems like a kind of a weird way to tell me that they're not moving forward locally after all, unless I'm reading too much into it.
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Nov 22, 2019 03:37
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Recruiters will promise you the moon and hand you a pet rock Treat them like they'll lie or exaggerate to keep you interested, because that's what's often going on.
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Nov 22, 2019 07:01
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The ways and frequencies that things go wrong working with recruiters is greater than the ways and frequencies that things go right. At best you will get a job that is equivalent to a job you would have gotten only working with principals. Don't work with loving recruiters.
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Nov 22, 2019 14:41
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:The ways and frequencies that things go wrong working with recruiters is greater than the ways and frequencies that things go right. In this case it wasn't really up to me, the recruiter got in touch with me, not vice versa.
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Nov 22, 2019 14:44
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In this case it wasn't really up to me, the recruiter got in touch with me, not vice versa. Do you also send your bank account details to every Nigerian prince who emails you?
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Nov 22, 2019 14:45
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Do you also send your bank account details to every Nigerian prince who emails you? I'm going to reiterate how the process worked: I emailed back and forth with overall company recruiter (who has an email with that company), had a phone interview, seemed to go well. He then moved me over to the talent acquisition lead for the local company (who has an email for that company). We talked, he told me more about the company culture, and corrected me about where the company moved (which would suggest he at least knows that much about it), and then told me the next step is talking to two of the people working in the specialty I'd be expected to enter into. I hear nothing back for a couple of weeks, he emails me apologizing for the delay and saying they'll get in touch with me the next week, then nothing, then I get this email from the overall company recruiter which implies the local process stalled or failed. Are there red flags here I missed?
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Nov 22, 2019 15:05
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm going to reiterate how the process worked: I emailed back and forth with overall company recruiter (who has an email with that company), had a phone interview, seemed to go well. He then moved me over to the talent acquisition lead for the local company (who has an email for that company). We talked, he told me more about the company culture, and corrected me about where the company moved (which would suggest he at least knows that much about it), and then told me the next step is talking to two of the people working in the specialty I'd be expected to enter into. I hear nothing back for a couple of weeks, he emails me apologizing for the delay and saying they'll get in touch with me the next week, then nothing, then I get this email from the overall company recruiter which implies the local process stalled or failed. Are there red flags here I missed? Nope, we use internal recruiters all the time. Some suck but you have to deal with them to get to me for jobs. The random people on LinkedIn are usually worthless. Although I would guess in my industry right now they actually could get you a job since we have a huge shortage of engineers.
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Nov 22, 2019 15:19
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I am working through a tenuous situation caused by my decision to work with recruiter. I was able to secure a well-paid position in a growing company doing interesting work, and I'll probably come out ok (and I have enough of a personal buffer to just plain bail if it comes to that), but Dwight is right - if I'd just worked with principals I'd be in a much better spot. It's caused me more headaches than I care to count, and I'm not out of the woods until the company deigns to extend me a formal offer past the contract period (which, surprise surprise, they have been dragging their heels on despite assurances from literally everyone with any modicum of control over my continued employment). If you have to work with a recruiter, limit yourself to internal recruiters or at least make sure they answer "is this a direct-hire position" in the affirmative.
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Nov 22, 2019 22:12
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Just remember, retained search (or executive search) is a different animal altogether from your typical recruiter. I have worked with several proper search consultants, and the level of access and insight and influence can be good. Many times they help the company figure out what they really need (not what they think they want). Likely outside the scope of most situations here, but worth calling out.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:33
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I just finished a good second round interview and they pressed for a number on the spot, which was weird. I gave them something (I know) and they gave a pretty lowball number. This is a pretty entry level job and I don't have some amazing lockdown skills here, so I don't know how to negotiate when/if they send an official offer.
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Dec 4, 2019 22:52
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Not a success story quite yet but I had a phone screen for a job today and didn't name a number when they asked about wage even though the guy made it really uncomfortable and the bottom of their range is $1/hr higher than the highest number I would have said.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:03
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Recap and update on my situation from earlier: I applied for a job with my former boss, who told me that the midpoint for the position is 110k. I interviewed, thought it went well, and received an email from the recruiter a few days letter asking for a) references and b) my salary expectation. I dodged the salary question but saying "I'm willing to accept what $company considers fair market value for the position". The recruiter pressed again for a number, and I was tempted to just give the 110k number, but held fast and repeated my previous line. Recruiter came back with a $118k offer plus 10k sign-on bonus. So the moral of the story, as this thread has made very clear, is never say a number jfc which got me an extra $8k base plus the sign-on.Eskaton posted:I just finished a good second round interview and they pressed for a number on the spot, which was weird. I gave them something (I know) and they gave a pretty lowball number. This is a pretty entry level job and I don't have some amazing lockdown skills here, so I don't know how to negotiate when/if they send an official offer. I think if it's an entry level job, and you don't have a unique skill set (not sure what you do), then you don't have much leverage when it comes to negotiation which is where I was at when I first started my current job. What has worked for me in the past is to point out where I exceed the expectations of the job description and ask for a little more. In my case, I was being offered ~$X/hr for work requiring a BS and 1 year experience, but I had a BS and 3 years experience, so I asked for a couple $/hr on top which they gave to me. You might just have to suck it up and accept what they give you and keep applying/interviewing to places (which is what we should always be doing anyway).
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Dec 5, 2019 07:26
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Muscular Typist posted:I think if it's an entry level job, and you don't have a unique skill set (not sure what you do), then you don't have much leverage when it comes to negotiation which is where I was at when I first started my current job. What has worked for me in the past is to point out where I exceed the expectations of the job description and ask for a little more. In my case, I was being offered ~$X/hr for work requiring a BS and 1 year experience, but I had a BS and 3 years experience, so I asked for a couple $/hr on top which they gave to me. You might just have to suck it up and accept what they give you and keep applying/interviewing to places (which is what we should always be doing anyway).
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Dec 6, 2019 08:19
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Told my department chair I wouldn't feel valued if they rolled back my administrative stipend after I saved them literal millions. This prompted an ugly discussion where I was called "mean" for having the "audacity" to ask for salary. Relations deteriorated with the realization that my BATNA was serious. I made the decision to walk. Signed my new contract yesterday, got a nice little signing bonus as a perk. Never don't negotiate.
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Dec 6, 2019 15:16
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Told my department chair I wouldn't feel valued if they rolled back my administrative stipend after I saved them literal millions. This prompted an ugly discussion where I was called "mean" for having the "audacity" to ask for salary. Relations deteriorated with the realization that my BATNA was serious. I made the decision to walk. Signed my new contract yesterday, got a nice little signing bonus as a perk.
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Dec 6, 2019 15:21
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Did you work out the non compete issue?
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Dec 6, 2019 15:42
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bamhand posted:Did you work out the non compete issue? Yeah, my new job is exactly 55 miles from my current one. They offered to let me buy out my non-compete but it ended up that this was the best offer on the timeline I was looking. It's a substantial raise even for my 12 month partner buy in and then the money gets really crazy.
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Dec 6, 2019 16:00
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Yeah, my new job is exactly 55 miles from my current one. They offered to let me buy out my non-compete but it ended up that this was the best offer on the timeline I was looking.
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Dec 6, 2019 16:03
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Hoodwinker posted:Listen, you have got to take the time to lay out the discussion that was had. Your summarizing has only whet my appetite. I have a ravenous hunger for the justice that was laid out like a Thanksgiving spread. Bring some holiday cheer to this thread with this gift you can give us. OK - I was hired roughly 2/2016 for a 7/16 start date. I negotiated to have my academic time reserved for an MBA for which they paid roughly half. I finished this degree 6/18. 8/17 I was asked to take over the preoperative clinic for a renewable stipend approximately 6% of my base salary. The clinic was costing our department roughly $750k annually. I realized that another service could run the clinic and would be able to generate billable hours for doing it, which would earn the health system $1.5M annually. Over the next 2 years I worked on this project as the medical director. It goes live 1/1/20. In 2017, I received a promotion to clinical assistant professor with a small raise but in 2018 our hospital financials were so bad that there was no change in pay for any faculty. In 2019, I applied for and received another directorship (roughly 2% in pay) and another 1.6% COLA. Things get really good in October of this year. Without a discussion, my department chair had planned to revoke this 6% administrative base stipend effective January 1. They initially claimed that this money was being forwarded to them by the hospital but when confronted with the receipts acknowledged that it was pay under their discretion. I found out about the plan to cut my stipend only because my friend in the CMO office told me the department hadn't forwarded my paperwork for next fiscal year's stipend. I talked to our business lead who confessed that they'd planned to take this money away without saying anything about it. I was a little annoyed, and I started making phone calls to make sure I had another job if this whole mess blew up. In October my negotiating position was "this money is necessary to keep me happily employed in this position. If you want to attach other responsibilities to it, I'm happy to negotiate those but a setback would be untenable for me staying here." The chair was gone for the first half of the month so I sent this to the department administrator who reports directly to the boss. The chair tried to schedule me for a meeting in the middle of November (4 weeks later) and I said this wasn't going to be good enough and asked for it to be sooner. At the end of October I sat down with our chair to negotiate for this salary. Early in the conversation I proposed a couple of new ideas for projects I could pursue or responsibilities I could take on to help with the departmental missions she has emphasized. "Let me keep this money," I asked, "I have unique skills that nobody else in the department possesses." Despite a teaching award, an exemplary record of safe and high quality care, numerous departmental responsibilities including directorship of the workroom and leadership of this transition project, the chair told me - for the very first time - that "she'd heard I wasn't pulling my weight." Instead of declining my request or negotiating some half-measure to appease me, she took the unusual tact of insulting me and then seeing whether I would stay. In the setting of this meeting she professed all kinds of things I knew to be untrue - "that she couldn't directly intervene on my salary" and the like. Department heads at my institution have unbelievable power over compensation, and I knew she had ridden the back of my achievements to a significant personal pay raise herself. I also didn't appreciate the lie that the stipend in my salary had been paid from the hospital. Obviously, in this setting, I could not continue to justify the markedly below market salary a life in academics commands, and I interviewed for two jobs outside of my non-compete and another job within the zone of my non-compete. I received two offers from the jobs outside of my zone while the third job had hired up by the time I was cleared (by the medical school - not the chair) to buy out my non-compete contract. My chair had scheduled a meeting for the end of December to "check back in" about our conversation. Instead, I moved the meeting ahead to the end of business the Monday before Thanksgiving, thanked her for all of the opportunities, listed my reasons and submitted my resignation to her directly on November 22 effective April 1. I ended the meeting by asking how to make the transition for people following me in these roles as easy as possible. Yesterday I signed my contract for an immediate ~25% pay raise for my first year and roughly a 100% pay raise for following years for a job 45 minutes away by interstate.
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Dec 6, 2019 16:45
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I say god drat.
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Dec 6, 2019 16:54
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nice very nice are super long notice periods common in medicine?
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Dec 6, 2019 16:57
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:nice I thought I was required to give 3 months, but in reality was only required to give 60 days. However, because of my administrative responsibilities and the desire not to put out my colleagues with call/scheduling I made it easy by giving them 4 months. (I also have a vacation scheduled to Australia at the beginning of March I didn't want to have to burn new job vacation time on).
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Dec 6, 2019 17:23
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:OK - Right in the veins... Did she try to walk any of it back when you gave your resignation? That's always my favorite part.
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Dec 6, 2019 18:54
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Chaotic Flame posted:Right in the veins... She told me she was "confused and saddened" as to "how we had gotten here" and that "she really wished I'd reconsider and stay." One other lick-spittle who she just promoted to be her main lieutenant also told me (seriously) that "I negotiated too hard," and "came across as mean" but still asked "whether there wasn't anything they could do to keep me?" I think the relationship with her might have been repairable, and I don't have any hesitation about seeking out a reference from her or working for her again if I decide to come back to academics (lol) but ultimately there are three people in positions of leadership in whom I've lost all faith, and between the three of them I was not going to be valued fairly here despite any mealy-mouthed apologies on my way out. Ultimately, the problem is one of results versus process. I'm a results oriented person, I've delivered outsize results and expect to be valued fairly for that. It was an easy decision to go through with it once I realized that incompatibility in perspective.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:03
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:She told me she was "confused and saddened" as to "how we had gotten here" and that "she really wished I'd reconsider and stay." I got this exact same sob story when I left my last job. To be fair about a month after I left almost all the other guys in my position got raises and promotions so that may have been the knock in the head they needed.
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Dec 6, 2019 23:09
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:She told me she was "confused and saddened" as to "how we had gotten here" and that "she really wished I'd reconsider and stay." Sounds to me like you told them exactly what they could have done, but they refused. Love the "confusion" about it.
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Dec 6, 2019 23:30
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Hnnnggg yes that story was incredible. Congrats on making a great career jump!
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Dec 7, 2019 02:43
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Don't work with loving recruiters. I'm an attorney. I got my current job via a specialist recruiter who reached out to me directly. The opening was unlisted (just one of her several relationships; she did not reach out to me for this specific job originally). As it turns out she knows the industry and my tiny speciality really well. I make a multiple of what I made before. Hearing people out can be worthwhile. Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Dec 7, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2019 04:09
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Vox Nihili posted:I'm an attorney. I got my current job via a specialist recruiter who reached out to me directly. The opening was unlisted (just one of her several relationships; she did not reach out to me for this specific job originally). As it turns out she knows the industry and my tiny speciality really well. I make a multiple of what I made before. Hearing people out can be worthwhile. Oh, I think I never did bring this up: after I talked about it here I sent a pretty anodyne email about how I'm happy to look at any other relevant positions he has, and he responded by linking me to the various local companies that might have openings, saying he'll put me first in the door or whatever. I didn't respond, and I had to go to work, so I figured I'd think it over the weekend. This guy then calls me at around noon, when I'm at work, where other people can hear. I immediately told him it was not a good time and he said something about keeping in touch by email before hanging up. Thankfully my colleague thought it was a spam call, but I was livid, and this guy is burned for me. I told him that I can only talk before and after work, and did not indicate that my current job knew I was looking, so he could easily have put me in a very unpleasant situation, which he should have loving considered. So, yeah, I guess Ike's right about how useless most recruiters are.
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Dec 7, 2019 04:42
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Vox Nihili posted:I'm an attorney. I got my current job via a specialist recruiter who reached out to me directly. The opening was unlisted (just one of her several relationships; she did not reach out to me for this specific job originally). As it turns out she knows the industry and my tiny speciality really well. I make a multiple of what I made before. Hearing people out can be worthwhile.
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Dec 7, 2019 06:09
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