|
Cup Runneth Over posted:I think people's main concern is that A) the will to put them back up might be more difficult to muster the second time around, now that the momentum has lost wind, and B) the military will be much better prepared and stockpiled the second time around, now that they have been allowed to resupply freely They aren't any better supplied now than they were before the coup started. The kind of military buildup necessary to go out and crush all resistance wouldn't exactly go unnoticed. I get why people are reacting this way, but this kind of fatalism just isn't realistic - and on some levels it's paternalistic to chastise MAS leaders for taking the path of least resistance - and by "resistance" what we're talking about here are the lives of thousands of people. Maybe tens of thousands. And before you go "well what about the death squads?" Just shut up already. We get it. The death squads could roll out at any moment and usher in the thousand year reign of Christ in the Andes. Instead of despairing fruitlessly you need to wait and see. So far this is all just a lot of speculation.
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 08:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 08:42 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/wyattreed13/status/1199319147454308354
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 14:55
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:They aren't any better supplied now than they were before the coup started. The kind of military buildup necessary to go out and crush all resistance wouldn't exactly go unnoticed. I get why people are reacting this way, but this kind of fatalism just isn't realistic - and on some levels it's paternalistic to chastise MAS leaders for taking the path of least resistance - and by "resistance" what we're talking about here are the lives of thousands of people. Maybe tens of thousands. unlike the liberals who tell us not to judge too quickly and wait to see if the coup government ushers in a new age of democracy in Bolivia, we now have ‘leftists’ who... tell us not to judge too quickly and wait to see if the coup government ushers in a new age of democracy in Bolivia. assuming MAS is playing 14 dimension chess in capitulating to the coup is way more paternalistic than seeing it for what it is; pseudo-left governments capitulating the second they see an organized resistance. happened w syriza, happened w podemos, and it’s happening again here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:25
|
|
|
assuming someone you don’t know and have no contact with may know more about their own situation is like the opposite of paternalistic
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:27
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:assuming someone you don’t know and have no contact with may know more about their own situation is like the opposite of paternalistic “that guy just shoved his cock into a beehive, that’s gonna hurt like a motherfucker” “STOP DISCOUNTING HIS LIVED EXPERIENCE!”
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:31
|
|
|
anyone who doesn't successfully implement global stateless communism is a neoliberal shill anyway https://twitter.com/TheAtlantic/status/1199323654808584192
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:32
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:assuming MAS is playing 14 dimension chess in capitulating to the coup is way more paternalistic than seeing it for what it is; pseudo-left governments capitulating the second they see an organized resistance. Wow, gotta say, your post is so bad it makes me want to tweet "friends from all over, please get informed first". I mean, just comparing the situation of the MAS with Syriza and Podemos as remotely similar alone is extremely stupid. It is also deeply hilarious because it echoes 100% what my dad told me about his experience with the european left: You see, my dad, whose mother taught her children Quechua against the strong opposition of their dad (and school teachers and...) so they would not lose that side of their ancestry was in a student union organizing for more indigenous inclusion (or more like, less apartheid) when the Banzer coup happened, and he got rounded up and left for dead in a ditch after a few weeks of "interrogation". He then managed to hide where the current government wants all indigenous people to go for a few months, before escaping to Chile. Just in time, of course, to be caught up again when Allende was toppled by Pinochet. He was lucky again and got an asylum ticket which in their endless generosity and principled stance for democracy the European states were willing to hand out after a few months of coup government. And he only lost hearing in one ear completely and suffered a few brain hemorrhages, one a few years later, from the electroshock treatment he got during the interrogations in Chile! So, he arrives at university in Germany, and finds some principled activists who are talking about imperialism and the need for revolution. Clearly these people would be interested to hear from him and his fellow refugees! Turns out, uninterrupted's dad was at university at the time, too, so they were quickly explained to that their revolutionary failure in south america and their lack of appropriate theoretical groundwork meant that they either were not committed enough to the cause or had been traitors deep down all along.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:49
|
|
|
Nothing left to do then wait and see. If MAS wins the election, this action will be vindicated. If they lose due to voter fraud, or a lackluster campaign with the head liners missing... Very depressing in any case.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 15:56
|
|
|
Spice World War II posted:Turns out, uninterrupted's dad was at university at the time, too, so they were quickly explained to that their revolutionary failure in south america and their lack of appropriate theoretical groundwork meant that they either were not committed enough to the cause or had been traitors deep down all along. yeah my dad was actually in Uruguay fighting fascist but please tell me more about how the MAS politicians signing away the government are the real victims and the protesters running blockades and getting slaughtered in the streets should be lucky to have such principled leaders signing bipartisan legislation selling away their country.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:09
|
|
|
“the kapos had no choice! im sure they feel really bad about all those people that got killed”
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:11
|
|
|
it’s really really easy to say fight when you have no real skin in the game
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:11
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:yeah my dad was actually in Uruguay fighting fascist but please tell me more about how the MAS politicians signing away the government are the real victims and the protesters running blockades and getting slaughtered in the streets should be lucky to have such principled leaders signing bipartisan legislation selling away their country. remember the venezuela thread, and the guy comfortably consigning venezuelans to death from his comfortable seat in sweden, for the sake of advancing his ideology remember what a joke and a monster that guy was never go full fnox
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:23
|
|
|
Cup Runneth Over posted:Hey, we stan a martyr Willem Van Spronsen ----------------
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:35
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:“the kapos had no choice! im sure they feel really bad about all those people that got killed” So who's the kapo in this case, Evo Morales, known neo-liberal shill, who is in exile in Mexico, didn't actually vote for the new elections bill, and continues to denounce that his party members are being forced to agree to things at gun point? Because I mean that is how we got here, by Morales being declared a neo-liberal like Obama? Or is it the MAS leadership that had to hide out out in the Mexican embassy pretty much from the moment the coup started, now with warrants for their arrest out, who also didn't vote? Or the delegates that actually got to vote on the bill (and their second bill of constitutional protections, that still has not been enacted)? Did they literally send their people into the gas chambers or were they maybe trying to prevent more of their supporters from being killed every night, (maybe foolishly) believing that with the arrival of the IACHR mission they would be able to gain some concessions from the coup government? Or does all of this not matter in the end, because the only thing that counts is the ideological score keeping, and therefore we are talking about failures at best, and traitors at worst?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:40
|
|
|
Spice World War II posted:So who's the kapo in this case, Evo Morales, known neo-liberal shill, who is in exile in Mexico, didn't actually vote for the new elections bill, and continues to denounce that his party members are being forced to agree to things at gun point? Because I mean that is how we got here, by Morales being declared a neo-liberal like Obama? im sorry, are you unironically saying you think the coup government is going to respect the “concessions” the MAS has supposedly secured, or that IACHR is going to prevent the loudly advertised genocide? have you not been paying attention to, like, anything?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 16:46
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:im sorry, are you unironically saying you think the coup government is going to respect the “concessions” the MAS has supposedly secured, or that IACHR is going to prevent the loudly advertised genocide? I'm sorry, are you intentionally misreading, like, everything? I mean, I can read your posts as cheering for the bigliest genocide possible to prove you correct, too
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:06
|
|
|
Spice World War II posted:I'm sorry, are you intentionally misreading, like, everything? accurately identifying the failures of MAS and morales isn’t cheerleading for genocide. the fact that you’re so dead set on denying them any agency and repeating pro-coup talking points shows you care more about having a set of martyrs to look up to than identify a route to affect real, sustainable change.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
this is kind of a silly fight to have, as non-Bolivians, in an English-speaking environment with very limited access to firsthand information, and absolutely no ability to affect the decisions made by MAS one way or another. especially when there are plenty of organizing targets much closer to home that are very closely linked to the operations of empire that caused the coup in the first place. why criticize Evo or MAS when right now there are propagandists, analysts, etc. cheerfully going about their day in europe and america without so much as a cloud in the sky
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:24
|
|
|
What would good leftist latin american foreign policy look like for the US? Helping rebuild countries we've spent so much time destroying seems like a no-brainer. What else?
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
tbh just knocking it off with all the loving meddling would be a massive step forwards
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:40
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:accurately identifying the failures of MAS and morales isn’t cheerleading for genocide. the fact that you’re so dead set on denying them any agency and repeating pro-coup talking points shows you care more about having a set of martyrs to look up to than identify a route to affect real, sustainable change. identifying the failures of MAS and effecting real, sustainable change comes from declaring Evo Morales a neo-liberal, and comparing the MAS to kapos, and making poignant analysis like Podemos, Syriza and MAS: peas in a pod
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:tbh just knocking it off with all the loving meddling would be a massive step forwards Yeah but there's definitely reparations (if not phrased as "reparations") that need to be paid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:42
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:What would good leftist latin american foreign policy look like for the US? Helping rebuild countries we've spent so much time destroying seems like a no-brainer. What else? "Helping rebuild" sounds like a lot of bullshit milcon grift would happen. Just cut them some checks if we want to be "helpful", and let them do some socialism on their own.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:43
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:What would good leftist latin american foreign policy look like for the US? Helping rebuild countries we've spent so much time destroying seems like a no-brainer. What else? realistically it means taking a step back or putting as many legislative roadblocks in the way of the security apparatus as possible, forcing the government to jump through hoops before it can send lawyers guns and money to freaks like Mesa and Camacho. closing down things like the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. recognizing labor solidarity in a way that upholds instead of undermining self-determination and national sovereignty. i guess there's arguments you could make either way about international institutions etc., i tend to be a reformist about them and would say that the OAS should be reformed to make the US less powerful. unfortunately even with a left-wing US administration a lot of bad stuff would still happen, it would just get laundered through Israel and Saudi Arabia or something similar.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:51
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:What would good leftist latin american foreign policy look like for the US? Helping rebuild countries we've spent so much time destroying seems like a no-brainer. What else? Reparations, not aid. The US could with a few billion dollars (chump change), completely fund free school/college for all of Central America. (The US already gives aid for educational programs, where the gently caress that money is going who knows). Ending the Drug War with drug legalization at home This one isn't pretty and doesn't sell well, but the US needs to legalize cocaine, meth, and heroin at home to kill the drug trade. Most violence in the most violent countries comes from the drug trade. Forced migration happens because of the drug trade. Ending neoliberalism and austerity and a Green Industrial Revolution Forgiving the Western debt that force austerity all over LA. Creating a mutual green economy that benefits all of the Americas. US providing capital for green factories, LA putting their resources and labor into actually benefiting their own countries. Decriminalizing movement Provide visas for LA tourists and workers in the US. This will actually allow people to return home, knowing that they could go back to the US if they ever needed to. Frijolero has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Nov 26, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:What would good leftist latin american foreign policy look like for the US? Helping rebuild countries we've spent so much time destroying seems like a no-brainer. What else? ceding military sovereignty to the UN, who scrap the current veto system and instead delegate power to newly formed regional power blocks or a one-vote one-voice system so that all achievable action of international law isn't de facto white supremacist policy anymore (or giving power to a new, better council). the us must be recognized as aggressive fascist imperialist power and so be disallowed from meddling any further in foreign affairs; any members of military brass of the old us military and intelligence regime must be barred from public action. possibly disbanding the us armed forces altogether, handing its resources over to international councils reparations for the global south to compensate for 500 years of imperialism, as well as for the greater damage climate change is doing and will continue to do the global south
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:Yeah but there's definitely reparations (if not phrased as "reparations") that need to be paid. these are another form of control, even in a "benevolent" US administration frankly I wouldn't trust them to be implemented in a way that wasn't imperialist. remember that things like the National Endowment for Democracy are the biggest soft power bullshit ways we can interfere with other countries, and it's all crunchy granola good stuff spent to do things like "empowering women" (women like Añez)
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:53
|
|
|
Addamere posted:"Helping rebuild" sounds like a lot of bullshit milcon grift would happen. Just cut them some checks if we want to be "helpful", and let them do some socialism on their own. Speaking of "helping rebuild": someone is on the case!   https://euobserver.com/foreign/146695 quote:Gabriela Keseberg Dávalos is a Bolivian-German journalist and political scientist. She was senior foreign policy advisor to the vice-president for Human Rights and Democracy of the European Parliament (2013-2016) and now lives in Bolivia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:these are another form of control, even in a "benevolent" US administration frankly I wouldn't trust them to be implemented in a way that wasn't imperialist. remember that things like the National Endowment for Democracy are the biggest soft power bullshit ways we can interfere with other countries, and it's all crunchy granola good stuff spent to do things like "empowering women" (women like Añez) ngos and charitable organizations would not be used since those are mostly shell games and vehicles for regime change anyway Rodatose has issued a correction as of 18:00 on Nov 26, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:the question was a good leftist foreign policy, not progressive neoliberal policy. we're entering the far off dreamland of "what if US was capable of doing something good for the world and somehow temporarily stopped being the great satan long enough for self reflection and redistribution" If we're in fantasy dream land, then the obvious answer is global communist revolution spearheaded by the US military forcefully overthrowing every right-wing and neoliberal government not only in Latin America but the world.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:00
|
|
|
the best thing the united states can do with regard to foreign policy is to gently caress off
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
the united states as a nation has to be destroyed, both materially and symbolically. there is no good that can be done under the current flag, constitution, and security state apparatus - not even something hypothetical and well-intentioned in a more realistic and attainable social democracy sense, this means retreating from meddling in other nations and ceding power to the UN, and supporting the reform of the UN into a more effective institution no longer hosted in NYC
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/jornalistacmprj/status/1199346288183037953
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:10
|
|
|
Addamere posted:If we're in fantasy dream land, then the obvious answer is global communist revolution spearheaded by the US military forcefully overthrowing every right-wing and neoliberal government not only in Latin America but the world.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:14
|
|
|
Apologies, I'm well aware of the way that "aid" can be used to further imperialist goals. I mostly mean just paying for things, though I admit how even this can be misused.
unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 18:18 on Nov 26, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:15
|
|
|
Agree that America needs to die, but if you want to help LA in the meantime: - Vote for Bernie - Support drug legalization - Support prison abolition - Move your money to a credit union
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:19
|
|
|
Rodatose posted:to me it just seems wrong for the us military (no matter how well intentioned), after shaping global policy for a century based on incredibly poisoned ideological foundations and making the world worse as a result, to be allowed an additional chance to be the leading voice reshaping the world in its vision yet again. i would not trust the us to be the centralized location of a new world's intellectual leadership; it should be decentralized imo. the people on the ground should be treated as equals with their input for how they want poo poo to be run being respected (esp. w/r/t the rift between communists and anarchists/stateless peoples) look man do you want fantasy dream land or not
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:19
|
|
|
Its useful to talk about fantasy dream land, because behind the protection of cynicism we have to understand that just because something is impossible now, doesn't mean it will always be impossible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
unwantedplatypus posted:Apologies, I'm well aware of the way that "aid" can be used to further imperialist goals. I mostly mean cutting checks i'd say the best kind of reparations would be to build a bunch of tractors n poo poo that are owned by village councils or other forms of capital under neighborhood councils so that the means of production are put in local hands. (or better yet building tractor factories that go under local democratic stewardship). anything given should 1. come with no strings attached 2. be owned directly by the people directly using it through democratic councils/unions 3. be not able to be easily stolen/coopted by undemocratic, reactionary forces the main goal in my mind being to provide enough self-sustainability so that people are insulated enough that they might be able to better hold off imperialists, and also so that they cannot as easily be held hostage by the threat of capital strikes or sanctions
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 08:42 |
|
|
LA socialists have proven that they can do projects and end starvation pretty well. The US mostly needs to cut checks and push the IMF to forgive the debts incurred by the illegitimate neoliberal regimes of the past.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2019 18:28
|
|