|
HOT INDUSTRY NEWS: Cubicle 7 just announced that they're ending their licence with Sophisticated Games to do The One Ring/Adventures In Middle-Earth; their second edition of TOR is cancelled. Based on the e-mail I just got as a preorder customer it sounds like something went really seriously wrong. They were apparently quite far along in the process of making the 2nd edition - work which they'll now see no return on. The specific details of the "why"s are pretty vague: "Contractual differences arose recently which we have been unable to resolve, and so we have decided to end our licensing agreement with Sophisticated Games. It is with regret that we have made this very tough decision to withdraw." I can only conclude that whatever the differences were, they were really loving serious, since I can't believe Cubicle 7 would walk away from such a major product line unless the requirements of sticking with it were too onerous for them to bear. Hopefully Sophisticated will be able to find a new home for the game, and C7's Warhammer schedule will perk up what with all the hands suddenly freed up.
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 13:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
I can't imagine that's anything other than "Sophisticated Games and/or the Tolkien estate asked for too much money or the full rights to the game. " Shame because it means TOR will go out of print; it's not a game that particularly needed a second edition in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 13:27
|
|
|
C7 also has WHFRP, Wrath and Glory, and the AoS RPG on their plate and a relatively recent staff shakeup. This could just be reorganizing priorities.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 13:31
|
|
|
moths posted:C7 also has WHFRP, Wrath and Glory, and the AoS RPG on their plate and a relatively recent staff shakeup. This could just be reorganizing priorities. My hunch is that the Tolkien licence, whilst valuable, isn't quite as all-conqueringly supervaluable as you might expect in the tabletop RPG market, and the Warhammer licences are probably more valuable on that front. I can imagine a situation where Sophisticated Games might set requirements which would seem perfectly reasonable from their POV taken in isolation, but would have threatened the Games Workshop licence and forced C7 to choose Warhams over Middle-Earth. (Perhaps there was some sort of clash due to GW still producing their LotR wargame?)
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 14:50
|
|
|
This is a real shame. I really enjoyed the first edition of TOR, but I definitely was wondering what they were going to do other than redo all the existing books or just change the games setting entirely to the time period of the books. They were already going that way, but at the end of the day LOTR is a very limited setting they had no control over. I do hope this means good things for WHRP and the upcoming AoS game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 15:19
|
|
|
Lord_Hambrose posted:This is a real shame. I really enjoyed the first edition of TOR, but I definitely was wondering what they were going to do other than redo all the existing books or just change the games setting entirely to the time period of the books. They were already going that way, but at the end of the day LOTR is a very limited setting they had no control over. The only thing I think the 1st edition line is badly missing is some sort of "capstone" supplement - something to help you satisfyingly close out your characters' stories as the War of the Ring breaks out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 15:52
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:I can't imagine that's anything other than "Sophisticated Games and/or the Tolkien estate asked for too much money or the full rights to the game. " The Tolkien estate is not involved with TOR, it's based on the Zaentz Company license for the Hobbit and LOTR, same as the movies etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 16:07
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:The Tolkien estate is not involved with TOR, it's based on the Zaentz Company license for the Hobbit and LOTR, same as the movies etc. If it's the Zaentz Company then my thoughts about a potential conflict with Games Workshop seems all the more likely - the split of the gaming licence between the wargame and boardgames/RPGs seems awkward, after all.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 16:32
|
|
|
My main regret is not getting a chance to play as a Dunlending guy who is an agent of Saruman. Oh well, at least that book exists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 16:38
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Ah, I thought it was based off the literary licence given the total lack of use of any of the assets from the movies, but you're right. Yeah, the have the rights from the same source as the movies, but not the rights to the movies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 16:39
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Ah, I thought it was based off the literary licence given the total lack of use of any of the assets from the movies, but you're right. Or they have insane cash from Amazon now and have a highly inflated sense of the relative value of the license.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 18:05
|
|
|
Dreqqus posted:Yeah because loving yikes Can you clarify a bit on this one?
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 19:07
|
|
|
I'm going to be fair here and say that in my haste/anger I may have misunderstood the quoted line. I read it as an argument against age of consent laws in general, and with more time to react I believe it was actually a reference to the fact that consent laws are sometimes drastically different in some countries. E: if your question is about Tamsyn Muir, Anne Leckie's blog post was in response to some controversy regarding fanfic that sexualized under age characters that Tamsyn allegedly wrote before being published. This all took place over twitter with several authors I follow but was unable to find the primary source because twitter, so grain of salt and all that EE: searching for it on Twitter led to some pretty frank discussions about several topics that some may find triggering. It's all tagged that I saw but I'd feel bad if I caused anyone in similar headspace to myself any discomfort. Dreqqus fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Nov 27, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 19:34
|
|
|
Got a link, or anything? I'd like to know because I've recently snagged the Gideon the Ninth audiobook and I can swap it for something else still.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 19:38
|
|
|
It's called and I shall be dumped where the weed decays and I've now read it. My overall assessment is that it's certainly an uncomfortable read, but that's because it depicts something horrible in a frank manner: it's not a story that wants you to think children are sexy, it's a story that wants you to think adult/child relationships are wrong and, in fact, deserving of a gun to the face.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
Warthur posted:Ah, I thought it was based off the literary licence given the total lack of use of any of the assets from the movies, but you're right. Off the top of my head, albeit knowing more than most about C7's problems in the past: A) Artwork in the new 2nd edition being different to the original, because of Jon leaving the company could have been a concern for look and feel (and yes licensors do reject artwork at times) B) Similarly Jon was the line developer for TOR as well as overall art direction for C7, so him leaving could have frayed that relationship C) C7's been struggling to get books out for years now (Moria was meant to be out in 2018, and is still only 60% written), and with Warhammer, Age of Sigmar and 40k, they're going to be even more pushed. As such they simply might not have been meeting required sales figures/royalties or wanted to drop the number of releases. I doubt it has anything to do with GW in that sense, other than C7 struggling to keep up in general. Notably as well, the Warhammer line developer, and 2 other staff working on Warhammer all quit a couple of months ago, so C7's definitely not doing great right now. PST fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Nov 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 01:31
|
|
|
I don't think owning both GW and Tolkien licenses causes any inherent conflict - FFG managed to hold both until they lost GW. (Presumably by trying to fill the hole WHFB left in our hearts with a forgettable rank & flank...)
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 01:50
|
|
|
moths posted:I don't think owning both GW and Tolkien licenses causes any inherent conflict - FFG managed to hold both until they lost GW. (Presumably by trying to fill the hole WHFB left in our hearts with a forgettable rank & flank...) FFG lost GW because of X-wing taking off so much, GW saw it, and FFG's plans to go into more miniature gaming as being a direct competitor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 01:51
|
|
|
IIRC, they had a specific no-compete clause with GW with regard to miniatures wargames. X-Wing was still technically a board game, but Battlewhatever crossed the line.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 05:18
|
|
|
I'd say Star Wars Legion was much more of a threat, in case they caught wind of that before the general public.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 05:32
|
|
|
I know the Rune whatever game is basically dead in the water, but how is Legion doing?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 07:50
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:It's called and I shall be dumped where the weed decays and I've now read it. My overall assessment is that it's certainly an uncomfortable read, but that's because it depicts something horrible in a frank manner: it's not a story that wants you to think children are sexy, it's a story that wants you to think adult/child relationships are wrong and, in fact, deserving of a gun to the face. See, that? That could be a good use of those themes in a literary sense, much like how Lolita is about how sexual obsession with a child destroys the protagonist's life and the lives of several others in his orbit. Unfortunately defending that sort of literary use wasn't what Leckie did, she just swung for the fences and started blocking people when they pointed out her bad take.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 08:04
|
|
|
They canceled the line because I told them they would have to name it the two ring. And that conflicted with TTR, which we all know is ticket to ride.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 09:13
|
|
|
PST posted:Notably as well, the Warhammer line developer, and 2 other staff working on Warhammer all quit a couple of months ago, so C7's definitely not doing great right now. It's certainly looking like they've tried to expand to a size they weren't really ready/able to handle and are now suffering the consequences of that decision and my hunch is that we're going to see them largely concentrate on consistently getting Warhammer stuff out to keep GW happy until the ship rights itself. I agree that if GW is an issue, the most likely problem is that C7 have commitments to GW in terms of product output and Sophisticated Games wanted things tightened up on the TOR/AiME end, and C7 realised that they were in a position to either please GW or please Sophisticated but couldn't please both, and they opted for GW because losing that licence would have been the bigger hurt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 11:37
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:See, that? That could be a good use of those themes in a literary sense, much like how Lolita is about how sexual obsession with a child destroys the protagonist's life and the lives of several others in his orbit. I think Leckie's post being about Muir's fanfic and the backlash Muir faced contextualizes what the blog post. Defending this sort of literary use is literally what Leckie is doing, because she's responding to people who are attacking that sort of literary use. She talks about a wider context but I think the backlash Muir has faced shows there is something to that wider context: people are reading Muir's story and concluding that because Muir depicts something, she approves of it. That's exactly the kind of thing Leckie talks about with the difference between 'good' and 'bad' portrayals being hard to make: the sudden controversy over Muir is because people aren't able or willing to make this distinction - and it fosters a community that's going to be very vulnerable to abuse. (And in these days I don't think you can fault anyone for blocking people these days: online engagement can be extremely stressful and reducing your exposure to sources of stress is often a necessary self-care response.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 15:25
|
|
|
Golden Bee posted:They canceled the line because I told them they would have to name it the two ring. And that conflicted with TTR, which we all know is ticket to ride. Now that they no longer have the license for TOR, I got to preview their new system 'The No Ring', but it's just not the same. I can't recommend it, 2/10.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 19:27
|
|
|
So how hard would it be to release the second edition of TOR but with the explicit Tolkien serial numbers filed off?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
8one6 posted:So how hard would it be to release the second edition of TOR but with the explicit Tolkien serial numbers filed off? Pretty hard. The whole selling point of the game was that it really *got* Tolkien fantasy, instead of the other games that have just been D&D with some names swapped out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
DalaranJ posted:Now that they no longer have the license for TOR, I got to preview their new system 'The No Ring', but it's just not the same. I can't recommend it, 2/10.  NOOOOOOOOOOOO RINGS!!! EHEEEHEEEHEEEHEEEHEEHEE
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 19:57
|
|
|
Where does Ringy fit into God's plan for us?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 20:47
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Where does Ringy fit into God's plan for us? Ringy is proof of the maling influence of The Devil/Mr. B Natural.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 20:59
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Where does Ringy fit into God's plan for us?  "You'd better not cast the ring into the flames of Mount Doom..." "Or you'll be the first to die!"
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 21:04
|
|
|
8one6 posted:So how hard would it be to release the second edition of TOR but with the explicit Tolkien serial numbers filed off?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Where does Ringy fit into God's plan for us? Well done.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2019 23:37
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:I think Leckie's post being about Muir's fanfic and the backlash Muir faced contextualizes what the blog post. Defending this sort of literary use is literally what Leckie is doing, because she's responding to people who are attacking that sort of literary use. She talks about a wider context but I think the backlash Muir has faced shows there is something to that wider context: people are reading Muir's story and concluding that because Muir depicts something, she approves of it. That's exactly the kind of thing Leckie talks about with the difference between 'good' and 'bad' portrayals being hard to make: the sudden controversy over Muir is because people aren't able or willing to make this distinction - and it fosters a community that's going to be very vulnerable to abuse. (And in these days I don't think you can fault anyone for blocking people these days: online engagement can be extremely stressful and reducing your exposure to sources of stress is often a necessary self-care response.) Yeah, not really how it read to me. That whole thing is being upset with people calling out those making content they disapprove of, and she specifically leans heavily on terms like 'anti-shipper' that came to prominence on Tumblr as a label for people who objected to content sexualizing child characters or fetishizing incest. It's a tone argument about how it's bad to criticize authors instead of their works in a vacuum, as if they sprung fully-fleged onto paper from nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 00:10
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Yeah, not really how it read to me. That whole thing is being upset with people calling out those making content they disapprove of, and she specifically leans heavily on terms like 'anti-shipper' that came to prominence on Tumblr as a label for people who objected to content sexualizing child characters or fetishizing incest. It's a tone argument about how it's bad to criticize authors instead of their works in a vacuum, as if they sprung fully-fleged onto paper from nowhere. 'anti-shipping' stretches back to the OG X-Files fandom and encompasses more than just that. Broadly it's any instance of objection to any ship for any reason, thought as used on Tumblr it's typically for objections on moral grounds - which can often be as tenuous as "drawing attention away from a different ship involving none of the characters" or "promoting incest by shipping two characters who met as adults and aren't related" - and anti-shipping is heavily associated with attacks and harassment. Leckie acknowledges that sometimes there's very nasty stuff and nasty people in fanfiction, but a lot of what she's addressing are how people are caught in the wake or harmed as a consequence of the way in which some people try to go after the nasty content and the nasty people. Again, keep in mind that the context for this is Tamsyn Muir writing about how sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl is horrible and deserves being killed for - and having her name dragged through the mud online for "promoting pedophilia". That's the kind of thing, the kind of tendency, that Leckie says should stop. And honestly I don't think she's wrong to say that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 01:15
|
|
|
Hel posted:I don't know if that's who they are talking about but Ann Leckie, author of Ancillary Justice wrote this post as well as making so tweets that are pretty much saying that you aren't allowed to complain about people writing and publishing pedophilic stories because you don't know their background. I think she's going at it from the "nothing should be off limit to writers" angle but it's still a lovely viewpoint IMO. Ao3 was founded in the wake of Fanfiction.net purging a bunch of adult-oriented content without warning. Their entire organizational structure, archival techniques, and funding model is based around preventing anyone from being able to remove works on moralistic grounds.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 01:57
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:'anti-shipping' stretches back to the OG X-Files fandom and encompasses more than just that. Broadly it's any instance of objection to any ship for any reason, thought as used on Tumblr it's typically for objections on moral grounds - which can often be as tenuous as "drawing attention away from a different ship involving none of the characters" or "promoting incest by shipping two characters who met as adults and aren't related" - and anti-shipping is heavily associated with attacks and harassment. I'm definitely not into fanfiction and don't know how the term may have originally been used, but I do spend some time on Tumblr occasionally, and I've never seen the "anti" term used that way—I've only seen it used the way Liquid Communism described, to label people who object to incest and sexualization of children. Nor have I seen it associated with attacks and harassment, except insofar as people trying to defend their own child sexualization characterize any objections to what they're doing as harassment. Maybe the term was used more broadly once upon a time, and maybe it still is in some corners, but at least in my experience Liquid Communism's description of the term as it's generally currently used is completely accurate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 02:13
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Well done. It's one of my favorite episodes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 02:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
Jerik posted:I'm definitely not into fanfiction and don't know how the term may have originally been used, but I do spend some time on Tumblr occasionally, and I've never seen the "anti" term used that way—I've only seen it used the way Liquid Communism described, to label people who object to incest and sexualization of children. Nor have I seen it associated with attacks and harassment, except insofar as people trying to defend their own child sexualization characterize any objections to what they're doing as harassment. Maybe the term was used more broadly once upon a time, and maybe it still is in some corners, but at least in my experience Liquid Communism's description of the term as it's generally currently used is completely accurate. No, LatwPIAT is absolutely correct, and the definition you're using is one that's generally used to sweep some pretty horrible behaviour under the rug. "Antis just object to sexualization of children" is some ethics in games journalism bullshit. Source: I, who have done none of the things mentioned, have first-hand experience with these people. I've had very close friends get RL stalked, too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2019 02:19
|
|
