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Last Chance posted:Um, so anyway. When’s the next ep, following Sunday? Dec 8th
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Nov 29, 2019 05:36
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You know, even knowing that the person who made this genuinely hates heist movies I don't feel like the episode conveys a "heists are bad" message so much as it conveys a "Rick is a douche bag who will ruin your dreams and suck the joy from your life for entirely selfish reasons" message. Heists may be dumb, but they're also fun. They make people happy. They inspire people like Morty to create new things. They bring people to together to do cool stuff, I mean that heist convention certainly had a lot of rad looking exhibits. Heists, as they are depicted in the episode, are something that brings lots of positive things to the world. Rick, meanwhile, spends the whole episode destroying things and intentionally making others miserable. His constant mockery of heists is a negative thing that does damage to the world: he causes Morty to give up on his dreams, he gets Mr. Poopybutthole fired, he nearly destroys the world, and he gets a guy killed (I know he thinks he shouldn't be blamed for that one but, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and blame him). He's an unrepentant jerk and he does all of it to prevent his grandson from achieving success. So, yeah, the moral here is: if enjoying heists make you happy and inspire you that's a good thing, and the people who try to tell you not to like them are assholes.
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Nov 29, 2019 05:42
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Dang, this episode was really bad.
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Nov 29, 2019 14:36
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Heists is a crimes - Chappie
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Nov 29, 2019 15:23
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Heists may be dumb, but they're also fun. They make people happy. I liked the episode but I'm never really very impressed by people explaining how something is "dumb" because it follows a formula. Most genre narratives follow some sort of basic formula. It's how you dress it up that matters. It's like if a food critic went to a great restaurant, ordered pasta and it was fantastic but then felt the need to complain "Aha! In the end, this is basically noodles with variations of sauce and other additives". That's not a useful observation or criticism. Unless you find a formula being used in something like a Jodoworsky film, "discovering" them is never really that interesting or even the point.
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Nov 29, 2019 15:29
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Phobophilia posted:The problem is that when the show criticizes Rick, it's usually mere subtext. Musk being on the show and doing half-hearted jabs at himself for being an egotist isn't even that. It's loving nothing. um, i don't know if you saw last season, but it's been very just the text of late
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Nov 29, 2019 16:51
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I feel the real punchline was after all the pointless and tedious twists and flashbacks that devolved into a childish one-upmanship game the very beginning was an actual twist that changes everything for the most ridiculous reason.
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Nov 29, 2019 16:55
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:So, yeah, the moral here is: if enjoying [Blank] make you happy and inspire you that's a good thing, and the people who try to tell you not to like them are assholes. I'd say in 98% of circumstances, if there's an rear end in a top hat about, it's Rick. Which is kinda the point, you can tell Harmon in particular is irritated by the folks that cling on to Rick as some sort of role model xD But then again, the same thing happened to Tyler Durden. Basically, if you write effective, powerful, and proactive antagonists, a subset of folks is gonna cling on to them with one hand (whilst the other strokes cheeto crumbs into/out of their hairy jowls)
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Nov 29, 2019 17:03
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel the real punchline was after all the pointless and tedious twists and flashbacks that devolved into a childish one-upmanship game the very beginning was an actual twist that changes everything for the most ridiculous reason. that mr poopybutthole can apparently drink a beer 2/3 his size?
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Nov 29, 2019 17:07
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Has Mr. Poopybutthole always been a professor teaching about Maya Angelou because that caught me off guard in a grand way.
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Nov 29, 2019 20:30
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What did you think he was doing for a living? Just spending the last two season gaps loving around?
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Nov 29, 2019 21:08
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BrotherJayne posted:But then again, the same thing happened to Tyler Durden. Basically, if you write effective, powerful, and proactive antagonists, a subset of folks is gonna cling on to them with one hand (whilst the other strokes cheeto crumbs into/out of their hairy jowls) People who idolize Tyler Durden are like angry vegans, in that I've never met a single one in my entire life but I have encountered thousands of obnoxious mediocre dudes who rant and rave about them online and make the exact same unfunny jokes about them and pat themselves on the back for how clever they are for it. At least it doesn't have the weird racism of dudes who thought that black people liking Scarface in the 00s was because they were too stupid to "get it" I guess.
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Nov 29, 2019 23:33
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Nevermind Tyler Durden, people who didn't want Walter White dead halfway through season 1 are not to be trusted.
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Nov 30, 2019 00:20
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mutata posted:Nevermind Tyler Durden, people who didn't want Walter White dead halfway through season 1 are not to be trusted. gently caress that was a great series. Watching that butterfly crawl from its cocoon was a journey
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Nov 30, 2019 00:26
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mutata posted:Nevermind Tyler Durden, people who didn't want Walter White dead halfway through season 1 are not to be trusted. Why would you want this.
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Nov 30, 2019 01:03
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CelticPredator posted:Why would you want this. He sucked, OP.
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Nov 30, 2019 01:15
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Did you want the show to end midway through season 1 or what?
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Nov 30, 2019 01:46
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CelticPredator posted:Did you want the show to end midway through season 1 or what? Wouldn't bother me any.
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Nov 30, 2019 01:57
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CelticPredator posted:Did you want the show to end midway through season 1 or what? At the risk of trying to contain the Pandora's box a bit, the original point was people idolizing villains. :P
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Nov 30, 2019 02:19
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I feel like it is possible to both enjoy The Sopranos, an entertaining TV show, and dislike Tony Soprano, a very bad person.  Although, part of the fun of people who idolize villains is that their ~heroes~ would despise them. Lionize Walter White all you want, he would literally hate all of us if he were real. 
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Nov 30, 2019 02:32
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Lastdancer posted:Heists is a crimes At least Blomkamp's crimes revolve around not hiring an actual writer, unlike his countryman Musk. quote:*takes deep breath* This is correct.
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Nov 30, 2019 03:03
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Sleeveless posted:People who idolize Tyler Durden are like angry vegans, in that I've never met a single one in my entire life but I have encountered thousands of obnoxious mediocre dudes who rant and rave about them online and make the exact same unfunny jokes about them and pat themselves on the back for how clever they are for it. At least it doesn't have the weird racism of dudes who thought that black people liking Scarface in the 00s was because they were too stupid to "get it" I guess. Especially since it's arguable that the latter people are the ones who don't actually understand the movie or why people like the character in that case. But then, people don't really understand the idea of a tragic hero or villainous protagonist anymore. I've gotten into some impressive circular arguments about the definition of 'protagonist' on these very forums. (Not sure if CineD is cheating mind)
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Nov 30, 2019 04:14
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People love to cheer for the right sort of villain, and don't nerd to consider a character a good and healthy person to like them as a character. E: leavin dat typo
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Nov 30, 2019 07:32
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Okay, sure, but considering how many of the shittiest people on Earth right now watch these things and think the bad guy is the good guy, maybe we could stop telling stories about geniuses being cruel because it makes every cruel person think they're a genius.
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Nov 30, 2019 08:16
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BrotherJayne posted:I'd say in 98% of circumstances, if there's an rear end in a top hat about, it's Rick. Harmon clearly doesn't want Rick to be considered a role model or a good person, but the show also tries to get us to empathize with Rick while also showing and talking about him being right about things. The first season's finale left us with an attempt at humanizing someone that seems to be an absolute monster, and it keeps waffling on whether we're supposed to understand or identify with the man or find everything about him abhorrent. The episode which had a B-plot meant to get us inside his head and understand how he pushes people away and feel bad as he realizes what a poo poo he's been, was directly followed by one where he committed omnicide to crush his grandson's dreams so that he wouldn't be without a partner and felt no guilt or discomfort at doing so. Rick's not depicted in a Tyler Durden, Ed Norton in American History X way. It's that the show cannot decide if we're following the adventures of a wounded man with relatable qualities who has trouble relating to others or a sociopath demigod, and how it is we're supposed to view him in either context.
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Nov 30, 2019 08:16
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The thing is that while Harmon may not want Rick to be a role model, he's also the focus of the show and the show has to be entertaining, so that means he gets to do tons of cool stuff. Whether Harmon wants to or not, that creates an inadvertent mixed message. At the end of the day you just need to not be a moron and have a decent enough sense of moral compass that you can get that, but definitely a non-zero number of very toxic people are attracted to Rick & Morty for all the wrong reasons. (see: aforementioned morons) Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I feel like it is possible to both enjoy The Sopranos, an entertaining TV show, and dislike Tony Soprano, a very bad person.  on both counts
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Nov 30, 2019 08:28
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Ironslave posted:Harmon clearly doesn't want Rick to be considered a role model or a good person, but the show also tries to get us to empathize with Rick while also showing and talking about him being right about things. The first season's finale left us with an attempt at humanizing someone that seems to be an absolute monster, and it keeps waffling on whether we're supposed to understand or identify with the man or find everything about him abhorrent. The episode which had a B-plot meant to get us inside his head and understand how he pushes people away and feel bad as he realizes what a poo poo he's been, was directly followed by one where he committed omnicide to crush his grandson's dreams so that he wouldn't be without a partner and felt no guilt or discomfort at doing so. I know that personally, a lot of the humor comes from the upsetting of expectations. To over simplify things: I think being kind is good, and when Rick says it's bad and is proven right, that's funny to me personally because that's not what I believe. Harmon seems like a generally compassionate thoughtful person, so I can imagine there's something of that there- Rick is transgressive, and that's why he's funny. A whole planet got destroyed, incidentally, in Rick's plan to emotionally manipulate Morty. That's not being presented as a good thing, and is in fact kind of a joke about how horrible Rick is. But I don't know if that's the essence of the show. A lot of it just is straightforwardly Rick being a smart cool dude. An alien culture might have been genocided, but Rick's horrible plan came together so perfectly it's funny. Like, the contrast between the petty goal and the horrific cost is so disproportionate that it's more likely to make you laugh than be upset. When there are actually real cracks in Rick's correct and cool facade as there have been, that's an emotional detour from Rick's usual state of being. I think I might be agreeing with you- Rick clearly isn't supposed to be the villain or anything like that, even if he kind of obviously is if you think about it at all. If you take the jokes seriously. This last episode, more so than most, hit me hard with how wrong Rick was for everything he did. And I was prepared to appreciate it on that level. But Harmon said that the episode was about his hatred of heist movies. Rick's position. I kind of don't get this show at all anymore. My dearest hope is that the comment that "there's a storm coming" at the end of this episode is the beginning of an arc, and there will be repercussions for the horrible poo poo we've seen. Maybe Harmon is self-loathing enough that he can have Rick say things he believes and then unambiguously condemn him. Or maybe he'll keep having fun space adventures, even if he's a monster, and that will continue to be the joke. For whatever it's worth.
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Nov 30, 2019 11:29
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I got the impression the joke was that Rick puts an absurd amount of effort into demonstrating his hatred of heist movies that makes it seem like he's watched way too many of them. Given the whole premise of the episode it comes across as taking it to the extent of self-parody. There's kind of a theme in this season especially of Rick being incredibly pathetic for all his power, and utterly trapped by his own neuroses and pettiness. He's worse than Rusty Venture!
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Nov 30, 2019 18:21
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I think we are agreeing. I'd just like it to pick a tone and stick with it. Trying to repeatedly flip the switch between "Dr. Who but the Doctor is an rear end in a top hat and that's funny" and "Dr. Who but the Doctor is an rear end in a top hat and that's sad" makes it difficult to enjoy either element and results in a lot of dissonance if you think about the show and its characters as a whole rather than as a single episode. And I'd normally say to take each episode as it comes, as its self-contained story with its own tones and appreciate what the episode is going for, except we just got off an entire season about people trying to grow from episode to episode. I don't know what the show is trying to be anymore, and it feels, to me, like it's pulling itself in wildly different directions for an inability to choose.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:30
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Rick loves heist movies. Its why he knows the genre inside and out. The whole thing is an act to enact this plan to crush Mortys dream, because Rick is a bored sociopath whose unlimited power means he never has to confront himself or deal maturely with his family.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:33
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You say that like it can't be sad and funny. I mean goddamn, how else do you function?
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Nov 30, 2019 18:41
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You say that like it can't be sad and funny. I mean goddamn, how else do you function? Well that was weirdly personal. I'm saying the show wants us to feel bad for Rick when we learn his catchphrase is a call for help, or when he realizes his toxic behavior pushes away the people that would love him (we even got a minute dedicated to a suicide attempt out of it), or when he realizes he wasted the time he could've used to make a real friend plotting petty revenge. It wants us to see the good in him when he sacrifices his own life instead of Morty's, and when he lies about Purgium to protect his grandson's emotional well-being and faith in people. And then it wants us to laugh and have no attachment to his nature or feelings when he murders an entire planet for the petty goal of crushing his grandson, or recreates SAW for a team of superheroes. When it does this, it just wants us enjoy how bombastically and monstrously over-the-top the entire thing is. These are difficult and confusing to swap between if you want the audience to understand or identify with your characters, which I have to presume is something that is desired since season 3 occurred.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:57
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It wasn't about heist movies, it was about Rick and Morty. Rick likes watching Rick and Morty even though he realizes that it has gotten a bit cliche and lovely. It's a guilty pleasure of his. He hates the fans of Rick and Morty because they really suck and he's embarrassed to be associated with them.. He doesn't care what they think because he's seen their fan theories and "cool ideas for what would happen" and it all sucks and they suck.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:58
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Ironslave posted:I think we are agreeing. I'd just like it to pick a tone and stick with it. Trying to repeatedly flip the switch between "Dr. Who but the Doctor is an rear end in a top hat and that's funny" and "Dr. Who but the Doctor is an rear end in a top hat and that's sad" makes it difficult to enjoy either element and results in a lot of dissonance if you think about the show and its characters as a whole rather than as a single episode. And I'd normally say to take each episode as it comes, as its self-contained story with its own tones and appreciate what the episode is going for, except we just got off an entire season about people trying to grow from episode to episode. I disagree. If every episode followed the same tone then all the nuance is gone. Rick is always a good guy/bad guy forever doesn’t work because then he’s ‘perfect’ and has no room for growth.
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Nov 30, 2019 19:07
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"This isn't a war, it's a murder!" *click* " This isn't a war.. it's a murder "
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Nov 30, 2019 19:09
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:"This isn't a war, it's a murder!" It's moider
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Nov 30, 2019 19:14
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Cojawfee posted:It's moider no I'm doesn't
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Nov 30, 2019 19:32
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Bust Rodd posted:I disagree. If every episode followed the same tone then all the nuance is gone. Rick is always a good guy/bad guy forever doesn’t work because then he’s ‘perfect’ and has no room for growth. That's a disingenuous read of what I was saying and wanting. Rick doesn't grow. Rick's own characterization is inconsistent and becomes what is needed for a specific episode. The Rick that was willing to lie to protect his grandson's hopes and feelings is now willing to commit omnicide to crush them. The Rick that gave a speech about how chaotic and uncontrollable the universe is is hunting down a man to kill him for violating Rick's own sense of control. The Rick that was willing to sacrifice his own life to save his grandson is willing to leave that grandson stranded in an apocalyptic world where he'll surely die. I would like the show a lot more if it committed to the kind of continuity and consistent characterization needed for Rick to grow. I'd like the show more if the things established about him stuck and were further explored in other episodes. But they aren't; we finished up a season about his failure to mold his family into the shape he wants it for his own nihilistic sense of gratification, and one of the episodes in the new season is him doing exactly that with Morty. I'd like for it to commit to the thing it periodically pretends at. It's done this well (and even arguably subtly) with Morty. Everyone else less so. I'd like for it figure out how to unify its twin desires to make people laugh at subverting high-concept speculative fiction and also using it as a means to explore and grow characters--the promise of that in the first season is what made the series grab me. I don't feel it's doing that. The recent episode is hilarious on its own. It's an amusing critique of the formula of heist movies done in a silly way with some great line deliveries (Rick's surprise at his rival being torn apart killed me). But viewed in the context of the whole series, taken with the belief we're supposed to care about who these characters are, what they do, and their relationships to each other and the world around them? It's the most horrible and horrifying thing we've ever seen Rick do, not just because of the omnicide (he did that with the miniverse), but because it was engineered to emotionally destroy the grandson he supposedly loves for petty and selfish reasons. Maybe I'm wrong and that will come back. But it seems like we were just supposed to laugh at it all for how ridiculous and stupid it was and not consider it in these contexts. Gravitas Shortfall posted:"This isn't a war, it's a murder!" Yeah pretty much.
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Nov 30, 2019 19:41
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Considering the stinger for this episode outright invokes "a storm is coming", I get the feeling that the finale is going to be either Morty finally making a stand for himself against Rick (at the worst possible time, of course), or one of the loose ends from earlier seasons (Evil Morty or Tammy and Phoenixperson, just off the top of my head).
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Nov 30, 2019 20:02
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Regalingualius posted:Considering the stinger for this episode outright invokes "a storm is coming", I get the feeling that the finale is going to be either Morty finally making a stand for himself against Rick (at the worst possible time, of course), or one of the loose ends from earlier seasons (Evil Morty or Tammy and Phoenixperson, just off the top of my head). why not both
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Nov 30, 2019 20:43
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