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Dany burned a woman alive who's crime was that she had killed the leader of a gang of rapists that had repeatedly raped her and burned her village. That should've been a sign that maybe she wasn't all benevolent.
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Nov 30, 2019 10:04
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Alhazred posted:Dany burned a woman alive who's crime was that she had killed the leader of a gang of rapists that had repeatedly raped her and burned her village. That should've been a sign that maybe she wasn't all benevolent. The problem with this and every other instance where Dany did something similar is that the audience was always pushed in the direction of thinking Dany's actions were right, or at least necessary. We weren't encouraged to think about it except in retrospect when King's Landing burned.
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Nov 30, 2019 10:41
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Alhazred posted:Dany burned a woman alive who's crime was that she had killed the leader of a gang of rapists that had repeatedly raped her and burned her village. That should've been a sign that maybe she wasn't all benevolent. the woman also used demon magic to cause Dany to miscarry so I feel like maybe there's more to this
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Nov 30, 2019 16:19
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Tellah posted:the woman also used demon magic to cause Dany to miscarry so I feel like maybe there's more to this And render her barren for the rest of her life and that 'gang of rapists' was still somebody she genuinely cared about. All of the people who defend the 'dany was evil all along' idea are giving the actual events portrayed way too much credit. It's not about whether or not YOU can see how her actions could be framed negatively, it's not your job to do the show's work for them. The SHOW has to be the one to demonstrate that and it literally never did. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Nov 30, 2019 |
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Nov 30, 2019 17:22
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Tellah posted:the woman also used demon magic to cause Dany to miscarry so I feel like maybe there's more to this a baby that was prophesied to grow up to be fantasy genghis khan.
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Nov 30, 2019 17:25
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Also Dany was shown to be a cruel tyrant dishing out punishments to her enemies. This does not lead naturally into firebombing a city of civilians.
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Nov 30, 2019 17:26
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Wafflecopper posted:Better go tell the threads for Twin Peaks, The Wire, The Sopranos, Babylon 5, etc that they have to stop posting too, some of those shows died years ago But those shows didn't poo poo themselves halfway through and poison basically every single storyline people had been following for a decade. Even Twin Peaks at least finished its original mystery properly and had a director with vision and passion, stuff you want to talk about and revisit even decades down the line. I honestly can't wait until people stop talking about GoT and we can never think about it again, though. Other than some of the production work, this show isn't really good for anything except a lesson in what not to do.
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Nov 30, 2019 17:55
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Phenotype posted:But those shows didn't poo poo themselves halfway through and poison basically every single storyline people had been following for a decade. Even Twin Peaks at least finished its original mystery properly and had a director with vision and passion, stuff you want to talk about and revisit even decades down the line. I honestly can't wait until people stop talking about GoT and we can never think about it again, though. Other than some of the production work, this show isn't really good for anything except a lesson in what not to do. Twin Peaks has possibly the single greatest opening season of any TV show ever. I wish the final season had captured more of that magic, but what we got was pretty amazing as well.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:12
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Agent355 posted:All of the people who defend the 'dany was evil all along' idea are giving the actual events portrayed way too much credit. It's not about whether or not YOU can see how her actions could be framed negatively, it's not your job to do the show's work for them. The SHOW has to be the one to demonstrate that and it literally never did. Yeah this is what I wasn't getting about the discussion yesterday. I wasn't arguing I couldn't see that what Dany did was bad (I've always hated the character/storyline and dreaded whenever it cut back to Essos even during the good seasons) but that the show framed it as good and right.
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Nov 30, 2019 18:24
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Dany was evil all along, that's why she became such a huge pop culture icon of female empowerment--with her every malicious action framed as "the bad guy gets theirs", and her fuckups handwaved away as being due to her naivete and idealism--to the point that even Beyonce once claimed she "felt like Khaleesi". It certainly must have been that, and not the two idiots in charge loving up years of character development by suddenly turning her evil out of nowhere.
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Dec 1, 2019 01:14
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Phenotype posted:But those shows didn't poo poo themselves halfway through and poison basically every single storyline people had been following for a decade. Even Twin Peaks at least finished its original mystery properly and had a director with vision and passion, stuff you want to talk about and revisit even decades down the line. I honestly can't wait until people stop talking about GoT and we can never think about it again, though. Other than some of the production work, this show isn't really good for anything except a lesson in what not to do. So because GoT became bad nobody is allowed to discuss it any more? Just unbookmark the thread if you don’t want to participate
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Dec 1, 2019 02:57
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Dany was evil all along, that's why she became such a huge pop culture icon of female empowerment--with her every malicious action framed as "the bad guy gets theirs", and her fuckups handwaved away as being due to her naivete and idealism--to the point that even Beyonce once claimed she "felt like Khaleesi". It certainly must have been that, and not the two idiots in charge loving up years of character development by suddenly turning her evil out of nowhere. It's way more foreshadowed in the books, but I'm pretty sure D&D never bothered reading those and just kinda went off wikipedia summaries so it kind of got dropped along the way.
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Dec 1, 2019 04:20
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Dany was evil all along, that's why she became such a huge pop culture icon of female empowerment--with her every malicious action framed as "the bad guy gets theirs", and her fuckups handwaved away as being due to her naivete and idealism--to the point that even Beyonce once claimed she "felt like Khaleesi". It certainly must have been that, and not the two idiots in charge loving up years of character development by suddenly turning her evil out of nowhere. I mean, Scarface has been idolized for decades now, that doesn't mean he was supposed to be good or empowering. I agree that they hosed up the execution, but it was pretty clear that Dany was always gonna be evil: 
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Dec 1, 2019 11:24
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I should add that I thought the character of Dany was kinda boring, and Emelia Clarke is not very good at the whole acting thing. And I do get a chuckle out of the idea that a bunch of people named their kids "Danerys" or "Khaleesi" and are likely very upset now. So the whole thing was worth it, in that regard. 
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Dec 1, 2019 12:14
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I should add that I thought the character of Dany was kinda boring, and Emelia Clarke is not very good at the whole acting thing. It's a shame, because whenever she is interviewed she's really fun.
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Dec 1, 2019 12:26
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Alhazred posted:It's a shame, because whenever she is interviewed she's really fun. Oh true, she seems like a really lovely person and I'm sure she'd be fun to hang out with.
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Dec 1, 2019 14:47
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Season 8 sucked but I did enjoy how much it upset the pro-war crimes crowd.
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Dec 1, 2019 15:32
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Alhazred posted:I mean, Scarface has been idolized for decades now, that doesn't mean he was supposed to be good or empowering. Scarface doesn't frame it as positive. A lot of the bad stuff Dany does is framed as right. I was going to make the point Sydney did but I knew someone would bring up Scarface.
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Dec 1, 2019 15:39
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Groovelord Neato posted:Scarface doesn't frame it as positive. A lot of the bad stuff Dany does is framed as right. I don't really see it that way. Mirri Maz Duur gives her a speech about how Daenarys had deluded herself into believing she had saved her when really she had contributed to her suffering and in response Dany burns her alive. That is, in my opinion, a big clue as to where Dany was heading.
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Dec 1, 2019 16:02
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This is again something that is wrong but the show frames it as the right thing. Dragons are back! Woo!
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Dec 1, 2019 16:13
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Groovelord Neato posted:Scarface doesn't frame it as positive. A lot of the bad stuff Dany does is framed as right.  I seriously cannot grasp how you can watch this scene and think "That's some triumphant framing. Not at all sinister or unsettling." Tyrion looks like he's about to be sick. Even the music sounds loving queasy and unsettled. She's even dressed in what looks like a fantasy interpretation of a fascist uniform. They weren't being subtle about it. Alhazred posted:I don't really see it that way. Mirri Maz Duur gives her a speech about how Daenarys had deluded herself into believing she had saved her when really she had contributed to her suffering and in response Dany burns her alive. That is, in my opinion, a big clue as to where Dany was heading. When all you have is a dragon, everything looks like a Dracarys. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Dec 1, 2019 |
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Dec 1, 2019 16:16
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Groovelord Neato posted:This is again something that is wrong but the show frames it as the right thing. Dragons are back! Woo! Yeah, because those sections are from Dany's POV. And she's self-righteous as all get out.
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Dec 1, 2019 16:17
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This aint Starship Troopers. All those Khaleesi fans weren't just dummies who didn't get it.
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Dec 1, 2019 16:24
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Groovelord Neato posted:This aint Starship Troopers. All those Khaleesi fans weren't just dummies who didn't get it. It's okay, you'll get over the feeling of betrayal someday. Honestly, I think that D&D didn't know until season 6 or 7. So anything before that was them bungling through what GRRM had set up. But after a point, I think they were clearly setting the stage for The Bells way before season 8. thexerox123 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 1, 2019 |
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Dec 1, 2019 16:26
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thexerox123 posted:It's okay, you'll get over the feeling of betrayal someday. Groovelord Neato posted:(I've always hated the character/storyline and dreaded whenever it cut back to Essos even during the good seasons)
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Dec 1, 2019 16:31
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thexerox123 posted:It's okay, you'll get over the feeling of betrayal someday. Lol
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Dec 1, 2019 16:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:This aint Starship Troopers. All those Khaleesi fans weren't just dummies who didn't get it. She is pretty much dressed like NPH in that movie, in that Tarly scene, though. "They're afraid!!"
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Dec 1, 2019 16:36
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thexerox123 posted:
It’s not that it’s not somewhat unsettling, it’s that it’s no more unsettling than half a dozen other similar scenes that happened at the hands of other protagonists during the series. When Ned Stark cuts a terrified man’s head off it’s a sign of his honorable devotion to duty. When Jon Snow executes his former friends and betrays his oath, it’s unseting but it’s also a sign of his character growth and protagonistic worthiness. But for some reason when the lady executes a traitor, the thing that literally all the other characters are doing, it’s a sign of incipient madness. Weird how that works. Basically the show treats the casual brutality of all of the other characters as a commentary on the brutality of the world; this is a hard land where even “good” rulers must do bloody and authoritarian things. But when Dany, and only Dany, displays casual brutality, it was apparently supposed to be an explicit character flaw. Despite being a Targaryen, Jon Snow’s numerous betrayals, eccentricities, and killings weren’t signs of madness and unfitness to rule, but Dany’s apparently always were. The ending only makes sense if you apply different rules to her than you do to anyone else. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 1, 2019 |
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Dec 1, 2019 17:25
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Burning men alive for not grovelling at your feet is hosed up and was obviously meant to be hosed up.
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Dec 1, 2019 17:32
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The Tarlys even being in that position was bad writing/plotting.
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Dec 1, 2019 17:35
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:But for some reason when the lady executes a traitor, the thing that literally all the other characters are doing, it’s a sign of incipient madness. Weird how that works. I think Stannis is the only one whose casual brutalities based in lust for power were comparable to Dany's, and he's not framed as being good, either. Ultimately you get his satisfying death at Brienne's hands after he's gone full-bore into irredeemable zealotry. You can't just ignore the characters' motivations and expect them to be comparable.
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Dec 1, 2019 17:47
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Keep in mind that half the issue is that they say "well these things were obviously evil" while at the same time we have other, ostensibly "good" characters, doing things that are equally hosed up and yet only Daenerys's actions are framed as indicating her evil nature. Arya murders two people, carves them up, puts them into a pie, then tricks their father into eating them before murdering him and then, shortly after, his entire family. Sansa watches her rapist get mauled by dogs, while D&D said "Daenerys watching her abusive rear end in a top hat of a brother die and feeling nothing is indicating she's going to go mad", while in the books while Dany recognizes that her brother's death was a result of his own actions, she still mourns the brother he was before the stress of being The Future Of House Targaryen caused him to become the rear end in a top hat. Tyrion, several times, makes the exact sort of threats of "I'll kill you all" that Daenerys makes, and yet apparently only hers was foreshadowing her heel turn.
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Dec 1, 2019 17:48
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whats context
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Dec 1, 2019 17:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:The Tarlys even being in that position was bad writing/plotting. "I refuse to follow this foreign queen!" - Notorious Targaryen loyalist Randyll Tarly
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Dec 1, 2019 18:03
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thexerox123 posted:Yeah, because those sections are from Dany's POV. And she's self-righteous as all get out. It's exactly that self-righteousness that makes her actions at the end not make any sense. Burning a city full of random civilians doesn't fit into her self-image as a noble savior liberating the masses from oppression. It's not that Dany is too good to do terrible things. This particular action simply isn't her style. All her other actions had some kind of self-righteous justification, but with the burning of King's Landing, the writers don't even bother having her try to justify herself. It's completely out of character. Edit: Vichan posted:"I refuse to follow this foreign queen!" Dany was born in Westeros and has by far the best claim to the throne of anyone still standing. Him choosing Cersei over her makes no sense. SimonChris fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Dec 1, 2019 |
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Dec 1, 2019 18:04
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dany's defining characteristic is the dissonance between the chaos and death she sows around the entire world and the good she claims to be doing
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Dec 1, 2019 18:07
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Vichan posted:"I refuse to follow this foreign queen!" All the houses should've turned against Cersei after she blew up the sept.
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Dec 1, 2019 18:21
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Burning men alive for not grovelling at your feet is hosed up and was obviously meant to be hosed up. I agree, but 99% of people watching concidered it another in a long line of yaas queen moments. I guess that it doesn't make it bad just cause people interpret it wrong, but I dunno.
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Dec 1, 2019 19:20
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Crimpolioni posted:I agree, but 99% of people watching concidered it another in a long line of yaas queen moments. I guess that it doesn't make it bad just cause people interpret it wrong, but I dunno. Again, I feel like she was pretty much justified in killing the Tarlys. Can't you imagine Robert or Ned beheading a rebel lord who refuses to accept the rule of the King? Jon Snow DID chop Slynt's head off at the Wall for refusing to obey the rightful lord commander, and I'm pretty sure Stannis burned a bunch of people along the same lines. It seems like execution is kind of a legitimate punishment as far as the Westeros court system is concerned, especially for the "rightful queen" in charge of a conquering army. She just didn't do it with a sword like everyone else, she did it with dragonfire, which seems like a pretty quick death aside from the spectacle. (And the reason I want people to stop talking about GoT is because I can't help but read and get dragged in, and there's nothing but sorrow that comes from thinking about this unbelievable disappointment.  )
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Dec 1, 2019 19:38
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:When Ned Stark cuts a terrified man’s head off it’s a sign of his honorable devotion to duty. And the show then later shows that his honorable devotion to duty was really dumb and lead him to his death.
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Dec 1, 2019 19:44
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