Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

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TyrsHTML: May 13, 2004

The worst thing they did to inexperienced players was put the drat sprawl number there. I also agree that i wish they would stop bolting on new poo poo and fix the old poo poo. I cant drag myself to play that long beyond the initial expansion phase, since you just steamroll the AI.

TyrsHTML fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Dec 1, 2019

# ? Dec 1, 2019 15:56

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# ? May 25, 2024 18:42

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

And Tyler Too! posted:

Your sprawl is always going to be higher than your admin capacity but once you have enough planets settled it hardly matters. Stellaris is a game of snowballing (assuming you suffer no disasters or anomalies backfiring).

doesn't mean you can't try to catch up with repeatable tech :colbert:

# ? Dec 1, 2019 16:00

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

The bad move was tying research to empire size to start with. They should just steal Distant Worlds model pretty much outright, which is to say for the uninitiated that raw production of research suffers MASSIVE dropoff beyond a certain point and the biggest gains to your research come from flat% gains from research stations on (rare) anomalies.

I've never ever liked the 4x convention of producing science in a factory.

TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 1, 2019

# ? Dec 1, 2019 19:56

Entorwellian: Jun 30, 2006; ~~Northern Flicker~~
Anna's Hummingbird

Sorry, but the people have spoken.

I�m holding high hopes for distant worlds 2 being the ultimate 4x game. The developers said it�s going to be a �bigger and better distant worlds 1 on a new engine�

# ? Dec 1, 2019 20:30

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Been looking at the vanilla habitat AI again and it's just so baffling. The entire energy district logic is

code:

	ai_weight = {
		weight = 0
		
		modifier = {
			weight = 20000
			OR = {
				owner = { 
					has_monthly_income = {
						resource = energy
						value < 200
					}
				}
				planet = { has_district = district_hab_energy }
			}
			NOT = { planet = { has_district = district_hab_science } }
		}
	}

Especially given what we now know about unfilled jobs destroying performance this is just so crazy.

# ? Dec 1, 2019 23:44

Bofast: Feb 21, 2011; Grimey Drawer

Splicer posted:

Been looking at the vanilla habitat AI again and it's just so baffling. The entire energy district logic is
code:
	ai_weight = {
		weight = 0
		
		modifier = {
			weight = 20000
			OR = {
				owner = { 
					has_monthly_income = {
						resource = energy
						value < 200
					}
				}
				planet = { has_district = district_hab_energy }
			}
			NOT = { planet = { has_district = district_hab_science } }
		}
	}
Especially given what we now know about unfilled jobs destroying performance this is just so crazy.

So, if the AI's energy income dips below 200/month and the habitat does not have science districts it builds more energy districts, regardless of whether or not it has pops to work those jobs?

# ? Dec 1, 2019 23:56

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Bofast posted:

So, if the AI's energy income dips below 200/month and the habitat does not have science districts it builds more energy districts, regardless of whether or not it has pops to work those jobs?

If the AI's energy income dips below 200/month and the habitat does not have science districts it builds AN energy district, regardless of whether or not it has pops to work those jobs.

If the habitat already has an energy district it skips the check current energy step and just continues hurling out additional energy districts, still not checking for workers.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 00:32

Serephina: Nov 8, 2005; 恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

The worker check might happen elsewhere; this is just a weighting thing.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 00:36

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

The mining district logic is identical.

Now you may be thinking that by identical I mean "Identical, but with the word energy swapped out for minerals"

No. No I do not.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 00:37

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Serephina posted:

The worker check might happen elsewhere; this is just a weighting thing.

That would make sense, except the planetary energy district logic looks like this:

code:

	ai_weight = {
		weight = 0
		modifier = {
			weight = 3
			OR = {
				free_jobs < 2
				AND = {
					districts_good_energy = yes
					free_jobs < 5
				}
				any_owned_pop = {
					is_unemployed = yes
					NOT = { has_citizenship_type = { type = citizenship_organic_trophy } }
					NOR = {
						is_pop_category = specialist
						is_pop_category = ruler
					}
				}
			}
			owner = {
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = energy
					value < 150
				}
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = minerals
					value > 50
				}
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			weight = 1200
			years_passed > 4
			OR = {
				free_jobs < 3
				any_owned_pop = {
					is_unemployed = yes
					NOT = { has_citizenship_type = { type = citizenship_organic_trophy } }
					NOR = {
						is_pop_category = specialist
						is_pop_category = ruler
					}
				}
			}
			OR = {
				owner = {
					has_monthly_income = {
						resource = food
						value > 0
					}
				}
				num_free_districts = { type = district_farming value = 0 }
			}
			OR = {
				owner = {
					has_monthly_income = {
						resource = energy
						value < -10
					}
				}
				owner = {
					has_monthly_income = {
						resource = minerals
						value > 50
					}
				}
				num_free_districts = { type = district_mining value = 0 }
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			weight = 3
			free_jobs < 2
			num_free_districts = { type = district_mining value = 0 }
			owner = {
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = energy
					value < 250
				}
			}
		}#Above 300 the AI will scrap energy districts.
	}

So either the habitat AI is borked or the planet AI is running needless pop job checks.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 00:44

Clarste: Apr 15, 2013; Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

Splicer posted:

The mining district logic is identical.

Now you may be thinking that by identical I mean "Identical, but with the word energy swapped out for minerals"

No. No I do not.

That seems like a problem.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 00:46

Bofast: Feb 21, 2011; Grimey Drawer

Which file can this logic be found in, btw? I'm kind of wanting to look at it myself now.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 05:29

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Splicer posted:

The mining district logic is identical.

Now you may be thinking that by identical I mean "Identical, but with the word energy swapped out for minerals"

No. No I do not.

lol

# ? Dec 2, 2019 06:31

Vavrek: Mar 2, 2013; I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Bofast posted:

Which file can this logic be found in, btw? I'm kind of wanting to look at it myself now.

Stellaris directory \ Common \ districts \ 03_habitat_districts.txt

Can confirm that the mining district checks for empire's energy income. :stare:

Here's the weighting for building science districts on a habitat:

code:

ai_weight = {
		weight = 0
		modifier = {
			weight = 9000
			planet = {
				NOT = { has_district = district_hab_energy }
			}
			owner = {
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = minerals
					value > 80
				}
			}
		}
	}

"Is this a power station hab?" "No." "Do we have, you know, some minerals?" "Yes." "Slam down a research district."

# ? Dec 2, 2019 07:04

HiKaizer: Feb 2, 2012; Yes!
I finally understand everything there is to know about axes!

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I've never ever liked the 4x convention of producing science in a factory.

This is probably because everything else in the game is produced in a factory effectively, so you can reuse code without adding weird extra complexity. It's a difference between code design and gameplay design.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 08:06

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Vavrek posted:

Stellaris directory \ Common \ districts \ 03_habitat_districts.txt

Can confirm that the mining district checks for empire's energy income. Here's the weighting for building science districts on a habitat:
code:
ai_weight = {
		weight = 0
		modifier = {
			weight = 9000
			planet = {
				NOT = { has_district = district_hab_energy }
			}
			owner = {
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = minerals
					value > 80
				}
			}
		}
	}
"Is this a power station hab?" "No." "Do we have, you know, some minerals?" "Yes." "Slam down a research district."

"How's our consumer goods outpu-"
"I SAID SLAM IT DOWN"

# ? Dec 2, 2019 09:19

Bloodly: Nov 3, 2008; Not as strong as you'd expect.

Does anything in the AI bother checking for Consumer Goods, out of interest?

# ? Dec 2, 2019 09:35

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Bloodly posted:

Does anything in the AI bother checking for Consumer Goods, out of interest?

I'm away from my PC now but IIRC the entertainment district does and the clerk district checks to see if the AI is /low/ on consumer goods. Please correct me if I'm wrong Vavrek. I think the intent is that if the AI is low on energy/minerals it will spam the appropriate hab districts where it can, otherwise it will build clerk districts if low on CG or research/entertainment districts whichever is available.

In general the other building AI is more along the lines of the planetary energy district I put up there, checking the number of free jobs, resource levels etc. but I've only been looking hard at habitat AI. I made a megastructures mod a while back and the AI I replaced vanilla with is too build happy.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 10:11

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

looking forward to the new patch where an AI with the Voidborne origin builds dozens of habitats stuffed with generators, only for all their people to be too starving to actually run them.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 13:09

Vavrek: Mar 2, 2013; I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Splicer posted:

I'm away from my PC now but IIRC the entertainment district does and the clerk district checks to see if the AI is /low/ on consumer goods. Please correct me if I'm wrong Vavrek.

You are not wrong.

code:

ai_weight = {
	weight = 0
	modifier = {
		weight = 9000
		OR = {
			has_district = district_hab_commercial
			owner = {
				has_monthly_income = {
					resource = consumer_goods
					value < 6
				}
			}
		}
	}
}

Weight for the commercial district is based on either having one already built, or having CG income under 6. The culture district weighting is ... strange.

code:

ai_weight = {
	weight = 0
	modifier = {
		weight = 1000
		owner = { has_valid_civic = civic_machine_servitor }
		NOT = { planet = { has_district = district_hab_cultural } }
	}
}

I wonder how much these things look bonkers to us because we're not seeing just how abstracted the AI's economy is. I could see some rules making sense from that perspective, and just leaving terribly designed planets as traps for players when they've been conquered. For instance, the district_hab_commercial section has this:

code:

ai_resource_production = {
	consumer_goods = 1
	trigger = {
		always = yes
	}
}

Do commercial districts give consumer goods to AI? Maybe that's why they build them?

To be clear for others: I'm only looking at the habitat districts file right now. The rules for proper planets are more complex, so it's harder to see what's happening at a glance.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 13:14

Relevant Tangent: Nov 18, 2016; Tangentially Relevant

Aethernet posted:

looking forward to the new patch where an AI with the Voidborne origin builds dozens of habitats stuffed with generators, only for all their people to be too starving to actually run them.

needs to be a food Megastructure :weed:

# ? Dec 2, 2019 13:33

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Vavrek posted:

Do commercial districts give consumer goods to AI? Maybe that's why they build them?

To be clear for others: I'm only looking at the habitat districts file right now. The rules for proper planets are more complex, so it's harder to see what's happening at a glance.

This came up a few dozen pages ago, that code does nothing. At some point unworked buildings might have given the AI passive bonuses, or they were meant to, but as it stands that's weird vestigial nonsense that doesn't actually do anything according to a bunch of people's testing (which I checked also)

e: I also don't know why the habitat district weighting is in the tens of thousands but the regular district weighting is things like "3"

Splicer fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Dec 2, 2019

# ? Dec 2, 2019 14:10

Natural 20: Sep 17, 2007; Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.

Bofast posted:

Since trade collection seems to go through gateways, if you place gateways well enough you should eventually be able to have a single starbase collecting from the entire empire.

In addition you can set up a single bastion to give massive trade protection to all your trade lanes.

I'm getting back into this. I'm still building tall because I find generating an early tech advantage with no chance of anyone wardeccing me allows me to expand later much faster.

Is the admin cap ascension perk still strictly better than the research perk?

Ditto expansion over discovery for the same reasons.

Edit: Also has Arcology been nerfed yet or is it still the go to to instantly win the game?

# ? Dec 2, 2019 15:00

Yami Fenrir: Jan 25, 2015; Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Natural 20 posted:

In addition you can set up a single bastion to give massive trade protection to all your trade lanes.

I'm getting back into this. I'm still building tall because I find generating an early tech advantage with no chance of anyone wardeccing me allows me to expand later much faster.

Is the admin cap ascension perk still strictly better than the research perk?

Ditto expansion over discovery for the same reasons.

Edit: Also has Arcology been nerfed yet or is it still the go to to instantly win the game?

Honestly i think its the other way around. Tech over admin imo. Expansion first will forever be a no brainer the way its set up

# ? Dec 2, 2019 15:19

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

If you're planning on staying small or you've already stacked a bunch if admin then the admin is better. If you've already blown past your admin then tech.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 15:35

pseudanonymous: Aug 30, 2008; When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Should I buy all the missing DLC now or wait for the Christmas sale? Seems like they are all 50% off for the "autumn" sale.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 16:29

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Relevant Tangent posted:

needs to be a food Megastructure

MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT PLANET!!!

# ? Dec 2, 2019 16:37

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

pseudanonymous posted:

Should I buy all the missing DLC now or wait for the Christmas sale? Seems like they are all 50% off for the "autumn" sale.

If you're buying stuff here's a bundle with a little bit extra off
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/6186/Stellaris_Ascension_Pack/

# ? Dec 2, 2019 16:47

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Captain Invictus posted:

MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT PLANET!!!

If you're a Lithovore, every planet is a Meat Planet!

# ? Dec 2, 2019 16:49

pseudanonymous: Aug 30, 2008; When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Splicer posted:

If you're buying stuff here's a bundle with a little bit extra off
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/6186/Stellaris_Ascension_Pack/

Thanks for linking that. I'm unsure because I wasn't going to buy the humanoids pack, just the ones that offer more gameplay. I already have Leviathans and Utopia, so I think despite the discount that bundle ends up costing me more than buying the pieces separate if I don't buy humanoids. Oh, I wasn't going to buy Plantoids either.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 17:12

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

pseudanonymous posted:

Thanks for linking that. I'm unsure because I wasn't going to buy the humanoids pack, just the ones that offer more gameplay. I already have Leviathans and Utopia, so I think despite the discount that bundle ends up costing me more than buying the pieces separate if I don't buy humanoids. Oh, I wasn't going to buy Plantoids either.

It's a catchup bundle, it takes out the things you have automatically. If you weren't planning on getting the species packs though then yeah and extra 4%/8% isn't going to cut it :v:

E: if you're skipping the pack then buy from the paradox store. Same deals, you get a steam key, paradox gets a bigger cut.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Dec 2, 2019

# ? Dec 2, 2019 17:19

Relevant Tangent: Nov 18, 2016; Tangentially Relevant

Captain Invictus posted:

MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT PLANET!!!

Ranching the Tiyanki and husbanding all the other minor space species. Give me a way to fill my space with pacified mining drones, breed uncommandable crystal monsters, and fog my space with Void Clouds. Have them attack anyone who hasn't researched the pacification tech and otherwise completely ignore all fleets. Make invading fanatic xenophiles feel weird, like it's the same universe but their philosophy is so incompatible with the xenophobes' that it's like spiritualists vs a fully 'borged technocracy.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 17:24

Horace Kinch: Aug 15, 2007

Captain Invictus posted:

MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT. PLANET. MEAT PLANET!!!

If you're playing as a Gestalt Consciousness you can terraform planets into hive worlds, which is kind of like a meat planet.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 17:46

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

And Tyler Too! posted:

If you're playing as a Gestalt Consciousness you can terraform planets into hive worlds, which is kind of like a meat planet.

More of a team planet

# ? Dec 2, 2019 17:50

Aethernet: Jan 28, 2009; This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!; Grimey Drawer

Relevant Tangent posted:

Ranching the Tiyanki and husbanding all the other minor space species. Give me a way to fill my space with pacified mining drones, breed uncommandable crystal monsters, and fog my space with Void Clouds. Have them attack anyone who hasn't researched the pacification tech and otherwise completely ignore all fleets. Make invading fanatic xenophiles feel weird, like it's the same universe but their philosophy is so incompatible with the xenophobes' that it's like spiritualists vs a fully 'borged technocracy.

I would be almost unbearably happy with a Space Farmville DLC.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 18:39

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

That reminds me, do lithoids have any special interactions with space crystals?

# ? Dec 2, 2019 19:33

pseudanonymous: Aug 30, 2008; When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Splicer posted:

It's a catchup bundle, it takes out the things you have automatically. If you weren't planning on getting the species packs though then yeah and extra 4%/8% isn't going to cut it

E: if you're skipping the pack then buy from the paradox store. Same deals, you get a steam key, paradox gets a bigger cut.

I wish they would make it easier like.. you know steam does. I go to the Stellaris part of the paradox store and the cover of every dlc/expansion looks basically the same and the size of the text and color makes it unreadable. Like their storefront is just loving awful. Whereas steam makes it easy to tell what I have, or at least easier, as well as what's in the DLC, and I can go through and add them to my wishlist one by one then purchase them all.

If often wonder if Paradox ever has anyone test their UI in any way shape or form that isn't a dev. Their website sucks, their storefront sucks, their forum used to suck, the UI in their games is tyipcally so cryptic you have to read a guide to play a game. If there was any competition whatsoever in their space I'm sure they'd go out of business.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 20:43

pseudanonymous: Aug 30, 2008; When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Splicer posted:

E: if you're skipping the pack then buy from the paradox store. Same deals, you get a steam key, paradox gets a bigger cut.

And also no it's not the same deals, my steam cart with the same items is exactly half as much as my paradox cart.

Sorry for the double post.

# ? Dec 2, 2019 20:49

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

pseudanonymous posted:

And also no it's not the same deals, my steam cart with the same items is exactly half as much as my paradox cart.

Sorry for the double post.

OK it WAS the same deals, they obviously ended their deals early just to make me look stupid

# ? Dec 2, 2019 22:22

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# ? May 25, 2024 18:42

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

Modders taking aim at the pop growth issue with a stab at realism: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1922397818

quote:

No need for that population controls edict, pops will simply stop procreating when they come to the cruel realization that high rents and low job prospects mean their offspring would have little to hope for.

Perhaps too real...

# ? Dec 3, 2019 00:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

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