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forkboy84 posted:It's a good & striking symbol. It's easy to draw even for people with less than no artistic talent such as myself. Personally I've not really attachment to it but it is far more widely recognised than the black & red ancom flag for example. Plus it's just more BANG than a flag with 1 or 2 colours on it. You know, swastika is also a striking symbol, widely recognized, easy to draw, and has more BANG than whatever. Which isn't to say that hammer and sickle and swastika are equally bad, but that you described lazy and simplistic thinking. The lack of original symbols also betrays the lack of original ideas. I spoke a couple of times with various young leftists who use communist symbols and was expecting some sort of reinvention or upgrade, like "I may use old communist symbols but this is how I really envision a good political or economic system..." But no.  ThisIsJohnWayne posted:It's almost like western leftists would be better off to invent new icons for themeslves instead of reusing old ones from oppressive regimes. Basically this, but it goes for eastern leftists too. I'm currently in Serbia and there's a hammer and sickle graffiti in my street, with a call for worker solidarity or something.
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Dec 5, 2019 08:05
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I agree with the "new symbols" thing, but I'd report a different experience: my hanging out with Spanish commies always struck me, they seemed very very aware of many things the ussr did wrong and wanted to avoid them. Hell, some dudes dressed as Stalin-era soldiers once and were kicked out of the party.
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Dec 5, 2019 09:17
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Ardennes posted:(You probably could find a similar opinion about the US flag (for example) in Latin America in terms of mixed opinion.) This is probably more damning than intended 
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Dec 5, 2019 11:20
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Just use the goddamn rose
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Dec 5, 2019 11:27
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Dawncloack posted:I agree with the "new symbols" thing, but I'd report a different experience: my hanging out with Spanish commies always struck me, they seemed very very aware of many things the ussr did wrong and wanted to avoid them. And how many votes does the Spanish Communist party get?
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Dec 5, 2019 11:28
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Speaking of the left, Polish member of parlament from SLD has opened friendly fire and is on record saying that his earnings of 2100eur + 600eur for flat rental is insufficient to get by in Warsaw. Median wage in Poland is 700eur
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Dec 5, 2019 11:34
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Doctor Malaver posted:You know, swastika is also a striking symbol, widely recognized, easy to draw, and has more BANG than whatever. Which isn't to say that hammer and sickle and swastika are equally bad, but that you described lazy and simplistic thinking. The lack of original symbols also betrays the lack of original ideas. While I could understand someone who grew up behind the Iron Curtain having those connotations and am sympathetic to it, it just doesn't automatically equate to Stalinism here. Honestly, an awful lot of the people who use it are basically just social democrats wrapped in more radical imagery. It just means "far left" to a lot of people. The problem with new iconography is less of originality and more just nobody really fancies the investment of time and effort to popularise it when we could be fighting much more important battles against inequality and poverty, at least to me. 
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Dec 5, 2019 11:35
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steinrokkan posted:Just use the goddamn rose I can't draw a loving plant, I'm a hack.
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Dec 5, 2019 11:36
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forkboy84 posted:The problem with new iconography is less of originality and more just nobody really fancies the investment of time and effort to popularise it when we could be fighting much more important battles against inequality and poverty, at least to me.
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Dec 5, 2019 11:54
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:It's almost like western leftists would be better off to invent new icons for themeslves instead of reusing old ones from oppressive regimes. They did:  ... but it has its own problems of association.
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Dec 5, 2019 12:03
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Dwesa posted:Sure. But don't expect people joining your cause if you're using iconography that is in their country associated with all kinds of violation of basic human rights not that long ago and you are too indifferent to change it to something less loaded with negative connotations. Iconography is often literally first thing people see and of course people will make associations. Yeah, I'm not at all saying you are wrong. I'm merely saying why it isn't something western leftists are going to lose sleep over. As I said, I don't use it myself but I can see why someone else would: as much as anything it is a reaction to the usurpation of social democratic parties by neoliberalism in the 90s and 00s. The people using it aren't usually tankies, it's just people wanting to differentiate themselves from the Hollandes and Blairs and the rest. As far as winning people over to the cause, I'm more worried about winning over my own country to the red flag first and foremost. Seeing a revival of a progressive democratic socialism in Eastern Europe is going to take a fuckload more than new imagery. I don't think it's impossible but that well is probably poisoned for a good while yet sadly. Another in the long line of reasons for leftists to loathe the Soviet Union.
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Dec 5, 2019 12:20
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forkboy84 posted:Yeah, I'm not at all saying you are wrong. I'm merely saying why it isn't something western leftists are going to lose sleep over. No Western leftist actually concerned with political success uses hammer and sickle. Only "leftist" cosplayers do.
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Dec 5, 2019 12:41
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I don't think you really need symbols like that anymore. Just grab a random meme and go with that. Like that orange hockey mascot or the video game goose. Get on with the times.
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Dec 5, 2019 13:11
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Paladinus posted:I don't think you really need symbols like that anymore. Just grab a random meme and go with that. Like that orange hockey mascot or the video game goose. Get on with the times. https://twitter.com/house_house_/status/1202534562716209152
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Dec 5, 2019 14:04
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See, everyone can get behind the goose. The goose has definitely never committed a genocide.
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Dec 5, 2019 14:34
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Paladinus posted:See, everyone can get behind the goose. The goose has definitely never committed a genocide. Have you interacted with many geese? Every goose is just itching to commit a genocide, waiting for their chance.
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Dec 5, 2019 16:03
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Nitrox posted:Have you interacted with many geese? Every goose is just itching to commit a genocide, waiting for their chance. /cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/49742777/Screen_Shot_2016-05-31_at_5.06.18_PM.0.0.png) Socialism with a goose face
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Dec 5, 2019 16:29
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re: hammer and sickle, I don't think modern left should use symbols of a police state that was anti-democracy, anti-feminist, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-environmentalist and pro-nuclear militarist. Unless, of course, modern left wants to stand for those values. Another thing with the hammer and sickle design is that the sickle represented agricultural workers back in the day when the majority of workers still lived from the land. Do leftist movements have any real contact with agricultural sector at this point? From a purely visual approach I'm more partial to East Germany's hammer-and-compasses design as those are urban tools, but compasses has the same problem as the sickle: it's a tool that has fallen out of actual everyday use. Might as well use quill... oh. Shaking hands and a rose is a good symbol. I wonder if there is any data on what Eastern European population thinks about imagery of Ernesto Guevara. Like have Che t-shirts have been as successfully commercialized in ex-WP countries as in the West?
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Dec 5, 2019 17:25
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I don't think I've ever seen a Che shirt in the wild. He's probably a known figure among those who grew up during the time but nobody gives a poo poo nowadays, even ironically. Not using hammer and sickle should really be a no-brainer for anyone who doesn't just want to bring Stalin back. Like wtf.
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Dec 5, 2019 18:18
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Nenonen posted:Might as well use quill... oh.
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Dec 5, 2019 18:35
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Dwesa posted:So? That's not national socialism of... later German variety. Quill is one of socialist symbols. I meant that sickle is just as outdated as a quill, which has already been used in this context (and which nobody uses any more, unless you're a calligraphist). 
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Dec 6, 2019 03:03
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New socialist insignia of the forklift and gross grubby computer mouse Idk what's the main tool of the downtrodden nowadays that also looks good on a logo. Delivery van and handheld pda/scanner? Steel toed boot is probably bad symbology. e: apron and hairnet? e: honestly joined hands seems good but is a bit easy to use as a corruption thing in counteragitprop e: nametag and something else aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 11:49
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aphid_licker posted:New socialist insignia of the forklift and gross grubby computer mouse Anime girls
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Dec 6, 2019 11:56
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aphid_licker posted:Idk what's the main tool of the downtrodden nowadays
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Dec 6, 2019 12:30
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Nenonen posted:I meant that sickle is just as outdated as a quill, which has already been used in this context (and which nobody uses any more, unless you're a calligraphist). And the save icon is a floppy disk. The personifications of justice and liberty still wearing Roman togas. And what's up with Justice's scales? Also all the military poo poo that still uses sword, shield, and arrows. Plus the days of the week are still named after like Thor, Tyr, Odin, and Frigga.
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Dec 6, 2019 13:08
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how many people have floppy disks killed tho?
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Dec 6, 2019 16:23
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I would vote for the floppy party.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:20
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Nenonen posted:I would vote for the floppy party. I'm turgid. Wanna rassle? Loaf of bread crossed with a pill. What do we need? The basics.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:28
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The truth is, the new hammer and sickle is a bottle of Faygo and a baggie of oxies.
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Dec 7, 2019 01:40
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Siivola posted:A mop, same as ever. Mop is a good one.
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Dec 7, 2019 12:41
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Any good agitator knows to stick with what people can easily recognize is the best way to get their message across. https://twitter.com/AP/status/1203305938964365312 https://twitter.com/dziadok/status/1203297785946218496
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Dec 7, 2019 15:50
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Any good agitator knows to stick with what people can easily recognize is the best way to get their message across. Speaking of symbols, would be nice to see modern Belarusian flags (red and green) at those protests once in awhile. Right now, for propagandists, it's easy to dismiss these protests by saying that only a small part of nationalistically-minded Belarusians oppose deep integration with Russia, and this is exactly what Russian propagandists do all the time. But the truth is the majority of Belarusians don't want Belarus to be part of Russia. Even among those who think Belarus should maintain close cultural and economic ties with Russia it's not a popular point of view. But Belarusian opposition, unfortunately, are often too preoccupied with what symbols they display at protests rather than with actual public support. It could have been a perfect opportunity to call for unity among Belarusians, but alas. On the other hand, interestingly enough, even though it's not an authorised protest, unlike many times before, secret services didn't try to prevent it from happening. No organisers were detained, no participants were arrested, no provocateurs were deployed to disrupt it (might change later, admittedly). In fact, the only person detained by the police was some drunk guy shouting pro-Russian slogans. So maybe a more red and green anti-integration event is in the works, too.
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Dec 7, 2019 17:02
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Paladinus posted:Speaking of symbols, would be nice to see modern Belarusian flags (red and green) at those protests once in awhile. Right now, for propagandists, it's easy to dismiss these protests by saying that only a small part of nationalistically-minded Belarusians oppose deep integration with Russia, and this is exactly what Russian propagandists do all the time. [...] Maybe there's a correlation between these facts.
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Dec 7, 2019 18:33
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Cat Mattress posted:Maybe there's a correlation between these facts. I don't get what you're implying here.
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Dec 7, 2019 22:01
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Paladinus posted:I don't get what you're implying here. Controlled opposition
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Dec 7, 2019 22:22
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mobby_6kl posted:Controlled opposition Well. I know that Russian propagandists, especially on Telegram, are pushing the narrative that Lukashenko is appeasing/controlling nationalists, who will start beating up people for speaking Russian any day now, but it's pure insanity. Organisers are well-known opposition figures, who were jailed multiple times for protesting Lukashenko's policies before. You could argue that Lukashenko profits from the fact that exclusively ineffective and outwardly nationalistic opposition are given any attention at all by state-owned media, because he can appear as a preferable alternative that way, but it's neither here or there. Maybe this time Lukashenko allows them to protest to send a message to Putin, but, again, make no mistake, those protesters are not KGB stooges, nor are they hired by the US Department of State. They are regular people who believe in what they stand for.
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Dec 7, 2019 22:57
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Paladinus posted:I don't get what you're implying here. If the protests are easy to spin, why not let them happen?
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Dec 7, 2019 22:59
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Cat Mattress posted:If the protests are easy to spin, why not let them happen? It's a somewhat good spin for Russia (especially considering that only ~750 people showed up from all over the country, and fairly quickly dispersed), but Russians are not in charge of protests in Belarus. Lukashenko, though, I don't see how he's going to spin this. He still has to project the image of a strong leader protecting the country from maidans, so I don't expect any explicit endorsements from him. There's another protest planned for tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes.
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Dec 7, 2019 23:25
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Today's protest in Minsk has attracted even fewer people (around 600). Again, although the police were prepared to pack everyone in their inconspicuously parked dozens of minibuses should something go wrong, no-one's been detained. One driver who honked in support of the protest was stopped by the road police, but it's not clear whether he was fined or not. All in all, pretty uneventful stuff, considering protesters even stopped at the Russian embassy and passed a letter to the ambassador through the security.
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Dec 8, 2019 15:01
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That sounds like fairly boring baiting by Bat’ka.
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Dec 8, 2019 15:09
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