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The very last thing that a Watchmen series should be is a morality tale where the writer's solutions for existential societal problems are clearly laid out for the viewer to  at.
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Dec 6, 2019 18:05
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The whole point is that it's ambiguous, morally gray, and makes you uncomfortable Like the one character whose mask is just my mom, naked
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Dec 6, 2019 18:29
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:The very last thing that a Watchmen series should be is a morality tale where the writer's solutions for existential societal problems are clearly laid out for the viewer to there's a lot of daylight between being a preachy morality play and just having squishy, incoherent politics that don't actually say much of anything at all about the Big Issues that Lindelof thinks he's commenting on the show can't even come down on the side of HJ killing murderously racist cops being a good thing
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Dec 6, 2019 18:31
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Barry Convex posted:there's a lot of daylight between being a preachy morality play and just having squishy, incoherent politics that don't actually say much of anything at all about the Big Issues that Lindelof thinks he's commenting on Uh what? Where'd you get that idea from?
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Dec 6, 2019 19:06
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ThanosWasRight posted:Uh what? Clearly they should have had Sister Night look directly into the camera and say “It’s good the bad guys got killed! I like that this happened because they were evil!” I’m sorry the show’s creators are basically nazi collaborators at this point.
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Dec 6, 2019 19:22
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Drunkboxer posted:Clearly they should have had Sister Night look directly into the camera and say “It’s good the bad guys got killed! I like that this happened because they were evil!” I’m sorry the show’s creators are basically nazi collaborators at this point. Trust in the law! Be a vigilante and do extrajudicial killings when you can’t! Mind control is AOK as long as the right people do it! Copyright Alan Moore 1985 original content do not steal
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Dec 6, 2019 19:39
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This was probably mentioned a bunch at the airing but that cover of Life on Mars for the credits is incredible.
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Dec 6, 2019 19:48
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Barry Convex posted:there's a lot of daylight between being a preachy morality play and just having squishy, incoherent politics that don't actually say much of anything at all about the Big Issues that Lindelof thinks he's commenting on Man, let me tell you about this comic book that couldn't even take a side on whether dropping a giant psychic vagina squid on New York and murdering three million people to avert nuclear apocalypse was a good idea or not. Freaking squishy centrists, amirite.
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Dec 6, 2019 19:53
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I watched the recap of watchmen again and I really think it is the best one out there because i've watched it 3 times and it keeps bringing up new things in me. Basically, Hooded Justice in the tv show acts as a commentary on Rorschach. Both started believing in a black and white form of morality "Believe in the Law" but in a complex world where things aren't black and white they each have different ways they react to that. Very interesting that they decided to go that direction with him.
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Dec 6, 2019 19:54
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ThanosWasRight posted:Uh what? the way the episode itself frames the cop-killing scene, Lindelof’s interview quotes, and several of the adulatory opinion pieces gushing over episode 6. an awful lot of people have taken it as representing Will’s ultimate surrender to his inner demons or whatnot, and not unjustifiably Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 20:13
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A lot of people really seem to be champing at the bit to claim that the show has already failed in its politics... imagine judging the comic before you knew the end! Literally everyone would be like "Well that Ozymandias guy sure has his head on straight, the comic obviously supports him."
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Dec 6, 2019 20:13
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Martman posted:A lot of people really seem to be champing at the bit to claim that the show has already failed in its politics... imagine judging the comic before you knew the end! Literally everyone would be like "Well that Ozymandias guy sure has his head on straight, the comic obviously supports him." well, it's not like the creator of the show hasn't given numerous interviews where he says idiotic things like "when you watch this show, you'll come away thinking some cops are racist and some cops are good" and "a 70-30 Democratic Senate would be just as bad as the reverse, we need ideological balance in government" (not exact quotes but close enough) in fairness, I don't actually think the show is as explicitly, textually centrist as I feared based on quotes like that, its politics are more just incoherent
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Dec 6, 2019 20:20
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Barry Convex posted:there's a lot of daylight between being a preachy morality play and just having squishy, incoherent politics that don't actually say much of anything at all about the Big Issues that Lindelof thinks he's commenting on I think that's a simplistic reading of it. The episode justified why he did what he did and made it completely understandable, without portraying it as "good guy wins." It's not really saying that killing evil cops is bad, it's just that it changes you. I've seen lots of people on these forums say that Nazis and white supremacists should be maimed and killed, but whether they'd be willing to do the act themselves is questionable. And rightly so, taking someone's life is not a trivial thing no matter how evil they are. Not necessarily directed at you but more as a global comment on art appreciation: I tend to take issue with attempts to judge art based only on whether it agrees with one's politics or not. That's a typical CineD thing and it's why I don't post there anymore. Of course there is art that has bad politics, unintentional or not, and it should be rightly judged. And I'm not saying art is not political or that mushy "truth is in the middle" messaging is good. But it's also a mistake to say something is not good if it doesn't go as far as I want it to go in saying what I want it to say. It becomes an exercise in ticking a box "does thing agree with me y/n, if y good if n bad" and that defeats the purpose of engaging with art. I mean, maybe the point of the show is not to say anything about Big Issues, but to highlight why navigating the world as a person of color is so difficult. And that can be one point among several. Art doesn't have to just be a big, bold political statement. It can be gray and not say anything with a big fat period at the end, but still be intellectually and emotionally stimulating. The original Watchmen is kinda hard to pin down on what it's trying to say, if anything, anyway. You can definitely tell it's coming from a person with a particular point of view, but the comic is not advocating strongly for a particular policy or worldview. It's notable that people have said the show misses the point of the comic but when pressed to state what the point of the comic is, they can't. That's because it's a lot of different things, it's not just a mouthpiece for Alan Moore's politics. It's reflecting frustration at our powerlessness over events that govern our lives. It's showing what fear and pain and trauma can do to people. It indicts conservative ideologies of the time too, but that's not even its main theme. A lot of what it does is not to give answers, but to raise questions. This is also what Lindelof is notorious for doing but gets poo poo on for it all the time. For example this show points out that liberal policies aren't going to fix things. Does it provide an answer? It probably won't, and maybe it shouldn't. But it's not bad just because it doesn't feed your answer back to you.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:24
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Barry Convex posted:the way the episode itself frames the cop-killing scene I missed that framing then, because all I could think of was "gently caress yeah, HJ, shoot that dude in the face!"
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Dec 6, 2019 20:24
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I think the thing some people have a problem with is that there are no truly 'good' people on this show. The masked vigilantes fighting the 7th Kavalry are hosed up themselves, and their actions reflect that.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:30
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Barry Convex posted:the way the episode itself frames the cop-killing scene, Lindelof’s interview quotes, and several of the adulatory opinion pieces gushing over episode 6. an awful lot of people have taken it as representing Will’s ultimate surrender to his inner demons or whatnot, and not unjustifiably They’re literally (well, figuratively) nazis. How was it not a triumph for him to kill those white sons of bitches? He’s not gleeful about it, he doesn’t torture anyone, and he doesn’t kill anyone except people actively involved in the plot. What else you gonna do with nazis? Is there some hint that another alternative is possible? Uniformed Hollis Mason pulling him aside at the precinct and begging him to get help from the good cops and trust the rule of law?
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Dec 6, 2019 20:33
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Edward Mass posted:I think the thing some people have a problem with is that there are no truly 'good' people on this show. I mean... have these people ever heard of Watchmen before?
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Dec 6, 2019 20:36
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Anyone that doesn't think Lube Man is objectively morally good is wrong and evil.
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Dec 6, 2019 20:43
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Colonel Whitey posted:I think that's a simplistic reading of it. The episode justified why he did what he did and made it completely understandable, without portraying it as "good guy wins." It's not really saying that killing evil cops is bad, it's just that it changes you. I've seen lots of people on these forums say that Nazis and white supremacists should be maimed and killed, but whether they'd be willing to do the act themselves is questionable. And rightly so, taking someone's life is not a trivial thing no matter how evil they are. among other things, changing Hooded Justice, the inspiration for all subsequent masked vigilantes, from a Nazi sympathizer who disgustedly tells a bloodied, traumatized rape victim "for god's sake, cover yourself" to a black man driven to put on a mask by the noble impulse of redressing racial injustice, is pretty deeply at odds with the themes of the source material and its critique of the fundamental idea of masked vigilantism I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the show subverting the source material if it actually did so in service of, as you say, a particular point of view, but I honestly don't think it has much of one at all, unless "racism is pervasive and bad" counts as a point of view also, the problem with the "liberal policies aren't going to fix things" part, and possibly the most centrist aspect of the show, is that the only things it depicts as failings of the Redford regime are things that the right considers failings of liberalism. there's no sense that any ideology to the left of Redfordism exists in the show's universe, let alone that the writers have considered it anyway, I don't hate or even dislike HBO Watchmen. I think it's a well-made, entertaining show. I just don't think it merits the effusive, gushing praise it's gotten about how it's some profound commentary on race in America or whatever. Antifa Turkeesian posted:They’re literally (well, figuratively) nazis. How was it not a triumph for him to kill those white sons of bitches? He’s not gleeful about it, he doesn’t torture anyone, and he doesn’t kill anyone except people actively involved in the plot. What else you gonna do with nazis? tbh if I'd watched the episode in isolation from the discourse around it, I'm not sure I'd disagree. but I've seen the "Will has become little better than the monsters he set out to fight" take enough that, combined with Lindelof's own politics, I'm not sure it's wrong I actually wonder why the show didn't use Mason at all, given that he was an NYPD cop at the same time. probably a combination of limited running time and the writers not wanting to deal with the Under the Hood continuity issues Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 6, 2019 |
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Dec 6, 2019 20:50
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Barry Convex posted:among other things, changing Hooded Justice, the inspiration for all subsequent masked vigilantes, from a Nazi sympathizer who disgustedly tells a bloodied, traumatized rape victim "for god's sake, cover yourself" to a black man driven to put on a mask by the noble impulse of redressing racial injustice, is pretty deeply at odds with the themes of the source material and its critique of the fundamental idea of masked vigilantism We see the whole of Will's story from his point of view, and it's a little absurd to think that a black man from the 1940s who is mostly concerned with racial injustice would have a 2019 woke attitude towards women, particularly a white woman playing dress-up who doesn't care about what he cares about. I'm not saying that this explanation is canon, I'm just saying that it doesn't clash in my mind.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:00
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Barry Convex posted:anyway, I don't hate or even dislike HBO Watchmen. I think it's a well-made, entertaining show. I just don't think it merits the effusive, gushing praise it's warranted about how it's some profound commentary on race in America or whatever. Yeah, I find the political angle to be a good thing since it makes the show about something more than simply being a retread of Watchmen. Like, instead of it being just 'Watchmen was good, let's make a new one!' they said "If we want to make a new Watchmen, we have to embrace that the original Watchmen had a point of view and many layers, and we have to do the same thing here." But I don't watch the show because I agree or disagree with its politics or anything. I think that's a facile way to look at entertainment anyway, and I always get frustrated with posts about how x character is being treated as a hero for doing not wonderful things, so the show should be hated. I don't think Watchmen is going to change the world because people will finally see what happened in Tulsa and racism will end. But I do think it's good enough art that it will add to the conversation in culture - either through its own popularity or the popularity of the works it inspires.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:09
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If Alan Moore's Watchmen does have a core theme, it's the nature of accountability. HBO's Watchmen is explicitly about how the systems of accountability in America are fundamentally, horrifically racist. Will Reeves is fully justified to shoot those motherfucking Klansmen in the head. But he's still a human being, and human beings placing themselves above accountability, even if it's because there is no just authority to turn to, is never a purely good thing.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:11
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Barry Convex posted:I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the show subverting the source material if it actually did so in service of, as you say, a particular point of view, but I honestly don't think it has much of one at all, unless "racism is pervasive and bad" counts as a point of view Well considering how many people don't believe it's true, it kinda is, yeah
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Dec 6, 2019 21:23
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Barry Convex posted:also, the problem with the "liberal policies aren't going to fix things" part, and possibly the most centrist aspect of the show, is that the only things it depicts as failings of the Redford regime are things that the right considers failings of liberalism. there's no sense that any ideology to the left of Redfordism exists in the show's universe, let alone that the writers have considered it Reparations is liberal?
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Dec 6, 2019 21:29
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I'd like to again point out the show explicitly comparing the Tulsa Massacre to a celebration of American colonialism, and how writing is a collaborative process, and that interpreting the hard, deliberative work of a diverse team of people through the lens of things said by the white male showrunner in interviews where it's his literal job to get people reading entertainmentweekly.com or whatever to watch this new "Watch Man" show, is simply not fair.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:32
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:If Alan Moore's Watchmen does have a core theme, it's the nature of accountability. HBO's Watchmen is explicitly about how the systems of accountability in America are fundamentally, horrifically racist. Will Reeves is fully justified to shoot those motherfucking Klansmen in the head. But he's still a human being, and human beings placing themselves above accountability, even if it's because there is no just authority to turn to, is never a purely good thing. I don't really agree, mainly because I don't think the show is willing to say that the police are fundamentally racist. it's certainly at least willing to depict cops who are racist, I'm not going to get hyperbolic and call it Thin Blue Line propaganda or anything, but that's not the same thing as the police as an institution being set up to produce racist outcomes even when the person with the badge isn't white generally, to the extent that liberals recognize "systemic racism" as a real thing, what they mean is that there are people with positions of power within the system who are racist, not that the institutions and structures of power themselves are in their functioning, and the former is what Watchmen depicts
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Dec 6, 2019 21:34
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Like I don't think anyone itt would dispute that Damon Lindelof, himself, the person, has a case of  poisoning.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:35
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Barry Convex posted:I don't really agree, mainly because I don't think the show is willing to say that the police are fundamentally racist. it's certainly at least willing to depict cops who are racist, I'm not going to get hyperbolic and call it Thin Blue Line propaganda or anything, but that's not the same thing as the police as an institution being set up to produce racist outcomes even when the person with the badge isn't white
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Dec 6, 2019 21:40
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The klansmen in the Tulsa massacre are all wearing their police badges on their robes. The link seems extremely clear.
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Dec 6, 2019 21:58
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Is the argument that organized law enforcement is itself a racist concept, and that everyone who joins it is actively racist in the performance of their job 100% of the time, and any fiction depicting otherwise is misleading, intentionally or otherwise?
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Dec 6, 2019 22:04
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And furthermore, when the show depicts Red Scare eating cheetos out of the bag with a fork, is the show condemning or celebrating it? And what does this say about communism?
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Dec 6, 2019 22:13
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Is Lube Man a reference to that time in 2012 when I was knighted by a drag queen in New York with a can of lube? Can David Lindelof hear my thoughts? Does he remember where I lost that can?
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Dec 6, 2019 22:16
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ThanosWasRight posted:I watched the recap of watchmen again and I really think it is the best one out there because i've watched it 3 times and it keeps bringing up new things in me. I love the fact that Laurie smashes a bottle of Nostalgia perfume after finding out her dad was the Comedian, which causes Dr. Manhattan's glass clock to call apart. Manhattan really knows how to rock out with his clock out.
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Dec 6, 2019 22:17
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Capitalist excess and gluttony (Cheetos) juxtaposed with Soviet utilitarianism (fork)
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Dec 6, 2019 22:17
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Can someone remind me what the relevance of the Veidt hoax was for the 7K in episode 5? Is it just that it gave them permission to start experimenting with creating another Dr. Manhattan or was there more to it than that?
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Dec 6, 2019 22:22
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Is the argument that organized law enforcement is itself a racist concept, and that everyone who joins it is actively racist in the performance of their job 100% of the time, and any fiction depicting otherwise is misleading, intentionally or otherwise? the first and last of those parts, yes Watchmen isn't even close to the most problematic example, there's a reason black cop protagonists are so popular with Hollywood, they provide a handy way to avoid indicting the police as an institution in the BLM era
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Dec 6, 2019 22:23
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Barry Convex posted:the first and last of those parts, yes So you're an anarchist?
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Dec 6, 2019 22:25
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Is the argument that organized law enforcement is itself a racist concept, and that everyone who joins it is actively racist in the performance of their job 100% of the time, and any fiction depicting otherwise is misleading, intentionally or otherwise? Yes? Angela does the bidding of vicious fascists even without a mind control beam because she thinks she’s following the orders of a good cop.
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Dec 6, 2019 22:25
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Yes? Angela does the bidding of vicious fascists even without a mind control beam because she thinks she’s following the orders of a good cop. Same question.
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Dec 6, 2019 22:27
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Xanderkish posted:And furthermore, when the show depicts Red Scare eating cheetos out of the bag with a fork, is the show condemning or celebrating it? And what does this say about communism? 
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Dec 6, 2019 22:29
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