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Kai Tave posted:Yeah for sure, I definitely noticed that PFO was in many ways a precursor to Star Citizen's business model of selling people on their own fantasy of the Idealized Game, PFO has just had its crash-and-burn moment for the whales to reflect on while that particular day of reckoning has yet to hit Star Citizen, so I wonder if any of the tavern owners regret it or consider it money well spent or what. Dancey honestly has to be kicking himself that Chris Roberts figured out a way to make a lucrative, sustainable business model off of selling people jpg of spaceships while all Dancey was able to get away with was a paltry $1.4 million. croberts kinda hit enough of a critical mass and had a bunch of things going for him Dancey didn't. I mean there's definitely some parallels in their PR, but as usual Dancey just kinda half-assed what other people were doing and added his own layers of marketing brain and not understanding the field he was in (as always). Like on the surface both are the "Genre with Diehard fans who want a game not on the market!" but while it was true in 2011 there were hadn't really been space-sims in a decade, there had been a steady release failed MMOs. It's not that WoW style 'amusement parks' were all anyone made, it's every non-WoW MMO was a ghost town within 2-3 months of release, because they were all designed to be profitable with EVE and WoW numbers, and you really couldn't get that with something more niche like a sandbox. Darwinism posted:I am almost 1000% certain Star Citizen predates PFO funny enough both were 2012 kickstarters, though Star Citizen began development in 2011 but man it's incredibly difficult to read the wikipedia page for star citizen, the true believers have done their best to make it seem like everything is fine but they did a really lovely job. There's all sorts of bad verb tenses from when deadlines and release dates have been blown past, and mangled frankenstein paragraphs mashed from different revisions.
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Dec 7, 2019 06:45
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theironjef posted:Just play whatever and act like that, it's not like old D&D codified calling your character Borgoroth of Coolswordoroth or whatever, that was just the style at the time that everyone remembers. yeah that's true, I think just a barebones FATE system we color in the details of will be more than enough. are there any big archives of classic RPG art? I've got a bunch of feeds of old fantasy paperbacks, but if there are torrents of pictures from old Dragon magazines that'd be ideal.
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Dec 7, 2019 07:15
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Personally I think trying to use FATE to do something D&D style is a REALLY terrible idea, and yeah I'll admit part of that is because my poorly formed brain has a harder time comprehending how that kind of system functions than HP Lovecraft and a plate of seafood, but it nonetheless feels like a really poor fit
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Dec 7, 2019 07:58
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FATE can handle "gang of wandering adventurers with a variety of abilities in a fantasy land" pretty well. FATE doesn't manage "endurance dungeon crawls with a heavy loot focus and dramatic power escalation" very well. So it kind of depends on what part of the D&D experience you want.
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Dec 7, 2019 08:40
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People are always saying they need all those old-rear end D&D rules and poo poo, but when it comes down to how they actually played the game in 198X, it was always all "The dragon opens his mouth for a mighty blast of fire" "I poop in there before he can do it." If people were just willing to admit this to themselves the OSR would be a cool bunch of fun people.
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Dec 7, 2019 08:56
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theironjef posted:People are always saying they need all those old-rear end D&D rules and poo poo, but when it comes down to how they actually played the game in 198X, it was always all "The dragon opens his mouth for a mighty blast of fire" "I poop in there before he can do it." I can confirm this has never stopped.
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Dec 7, 2019 09:11
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Coolness Averted posted:croberts kinda hit enough of a critical mass and had a bunch of things going for him Dancey didn't. The great irony, of course, being that Dancey did actually work at CCP for three years, so he could very well have been a bigger part of an extremely successful starship-based MMO but, welp. I would dearly love to know what went on with the whole $70 monocle thing, Dancey denies it was his doing but it's just too perfect not to be.
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Dec 7, 2019 09:22
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Coolness Averted posted:wait really? I could've sworn only the person using the hero needed to, but since each DLC had downloads you're obviously right. I guess I just took the devs at their word when they said they'd add it back in 2016. https://steamcommunity.com/app/337150/discussions/0/1741100729957919038/ The justification given is it would be unfair to force players to download the art assets for cards they don't have  You're wrong about absolute zero though he's amazing. fool_of_sound posted:Welp that blows, guess I'm not buying it. e: I check back every so often to see if they've come to their senses, but each time I do there's a semi-recent thread with the same defences of "bbbbut the mobile users!" (have a game setting for "download assets you don't own?" and replace the art with a generic image if you don't check it), "The physical game is much more expensive!" (I don't need to buy four copies of Unity to play with friends in the physical game), "It's the industry standard!" (DLC-heavy games have been steadily moving away from that model for years because it turns out seeing your friends do cool things you can't do is a good way to encourage you to buy the cool thing), and the absolute headwrecker of "It's a niche, poorly selling game, they need the money!" (WHY THE gently caress DO YOU THINK THAT IS YOU loving DIPSHITS) Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Dec 7, 2019 |
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Dec 7, 2019 11:14
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theironjef posted:People are always saying they need all those old-rear end D&D rules and poo poo, but when it comes down to how they actually played the game in 198X, it was always all "The dragon opens his mouth for a mighty blast of fire" "I poop in there before he can do it." It's because those "old-rear end D&D rules" as you put it still work perfectly well as long as you use the right version of them, Basic/Expert is actually fairly elegant for it's time Basically a solid 85% of complaints people have about TSR era D&D stem from either AD&D being a bloated and often confusing mess, or OD&D being weirdly written, you'll rarely find any truly meaningful complaints about B/X D&D Also there's plenty of cool stuff in the OSR, you're probably just looking at the wrong places
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Dec 7, 2019 11:31
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drrockso20 posted:Also there's plenty of cool stuff in the OSR, you're probably just looking at the wrong places Sure, there's plenty of cool stuff in the OSR, but that's not what they said. And I agree, if I were going to describe the OSR in general, "a cool group of fun people" would be at the very bottom of the list.
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Dec 7, 2019 18:47
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So uh there's apparently a Paranoia game? I'm scared to buy it but at the same time I don't think I can resist https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/paranoia/home
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Dec 7, 2019 19:57
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Jarvisi posted:So uh there's apparently a Paranoia game? I'm scared to buy it but at the same time I don't think I can resist Considering it's the first I've heard of this I'd bet it's either a sleeper hit or mediocre waste of time that's not even hilariously bad.
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Dec 7, 2019 21:34
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Covok posted:It's not, but Tenra Bansho Zero is the bees knees and more people should p-p-play it. it is, and they should.
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Dec 7, 2019 22:03
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Splicer posted:Yeah I don't own it for this reason. Otherwise I'd have comfortably been the host whale for some friends of mine who moved away because we used to love playing this together, but nuts to spending 60 bucks each and still not being able to reliably play with randoms, or not being able to pick up a cool new dude without pressuring my friends into also spending money. Yeah I was prepared to drop the 60 bux on it and talk a several friends into getting the 10 dollar base version. Hell I wouldn't even be upset if people had to buy their own heroes, but demanding that everyone have access to every hero everyone else wants to play is ludicrous.
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Dec 7, 2019 22:05
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drrockso20 posted:It's because those "old-rear end D&D rules" as you put it still work perfectly well as long as you use the right version of them, Basic/Expert is actually fairly elegant for it's time No one said they didn't work. I said they routinely got ignored in favor of fun. Then, 20 years later, people come out looking for the same rules again, because they forgot the fun they had came from ignoring them, not obsessing over them.
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Dec 7, 2019 22:28
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theironjef posted:No one said they didn't work. I said they routinely got ignored in favor of fun. Then, 20 years later, people come out looking for the same rules again, because they forgot the fun they had came from ignoring them, not obsessing over them. Your conclusion is the faulty part though: you're saying that to find fun again and to be cool or good, the OSR should give up on actually using the rules, and just adopt ignoring them as the way to play. That's terrible: if you do that, you get 5e D&D, and that system's poo poo. Instead, the OSR engaged in a lot of archaeology to figure out why rules were created how they were, criticism to examine those rules and update them, and then advocates changing them to fit your own game. Both of the two general guides to OSR-style play I'm familiar with tell you to throw out rules you don't like, but only after you consider why they're there and what fun you'll be creating if you toss them. No one sane in the OSR (aka not Raggi or Zak or Venger Satanis) is saying you MUST follow the rules exactly, they're not the Word of God. But it is very much worth considering them critically in order to be creative using them.
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Dec 7, 2019 23:38
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Arivia posted:Your conclusion is the faulty part though: you're saying that to find fun again and to be cool or good, the OSR should give up on actually using the rules, and just adopt ignoring them as the way to play. That's terrible: if you do that, you get 5e D&D, and that system's poo poo. I would only recommend people ignore old rules to start having fun again if they dislike rules in general. Per the original request from some guy who wanted to play D&D the way he remembered, but he didn't remember all the rules. As for the functionality of OSR, I understand it. I just think it's stupid, personally. Not for me. It strikes me as equivalent to people saying that the '75 Oldsmobile Cutlass is the greatest car ever invented, probably by secret geniuses, and if we truly study it we can unlock its car secrets, and any car that came later is a bullshit car.
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Dec 8, 2019 00:08
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That Old Tree posted:Considering it's the first I've heard of this I'd bet it's either a sleeper hit or mediocre waste of time that's not even hilariously bad. I mean it's an obscure ancient RPG. So it has to be a labor of love at least from someone in the team. I'm rationalizing buying this
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Dec 8, 2019 00:13
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Arivia posted:Your conclusion is the faulty part though: you're saying that to find fun again and to be cool or good, the OSR should give up on actually using the rules, and just adopt ignoring them as the way to play. That's terrible: if you do that, you get 5e D&D, and that system's poo poo. You summed up my thoughts perfectly
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Dec 8, 2019 00:19
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Veins of the Earth is the only good OSR thing.
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Dec 8, 2019 01:02
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That Old Tree posted:Considering it's the first I've heard of this I'd bet it's either a sleeper hit or mediocre waste of time that's not even hilariously bad. It just came out on Epic storefront on the 5th, I believe. There was a trailer for it a while ago, but it looks like a fairly serviceable isometric game.
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Dec 8, 2019 01:24
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Hostile V posted:Veins of the Earth is the only good OSR thing. tunnels and trolls? Minotaurs and mazes? Aren't those still considered osr?
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Dec 8, 2019 01:29
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Coolness Averted posted:tunnels and trolls? Minotaurs and mazes? Aren't those still considered osr? T&T isn't OSR in the same way that Runequest isn't. They're games published shortly after as a reaction to D&D, rather than being clones of an old edition of D&D.
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Dec 8, 2019 01:35
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The idea that the OSR is just clones of old D&D editions is a pernicious and false one. Still, this is probably why the label is undergoing radical shifts as seen by the emergence of SwordDream.
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Dec 8, 2019 02:05
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Meinberg posted:The idea that the OSR is just clones of old D&D editions is a pernicious and false one. Still, this is probably why the label is undergoing radical shifts as seen by the emergence of SwordDream. I had to look that acronym up and it's fascinating. It looks more like just a general set of principles and not one defined by it's relation to the OSR thing, is that accurate?
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Dec 8, 2019 02:22
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theironjef posted:I had to look that acronym up and it's fascinating. It looks more like just a general set of principles and not one defined by it's relation to the OSR thing, is that accurate? SwordDream emerged from young, mostly queer or people or color, designers in the OSR scene realized that the OSR scene was riddled with bad people and those who were willing to cover for those bad people. So even though its relationship to the OSR isn’t part of its founding principles, it still is a critical part of its history.
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Dec 8, 2019 02:24
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Meinberg posted:SwordDream emerged from young, mostly queer or people or color, designers in the OSR scene realized that the OSR scene was riddled with bad people and those who were willing to cover for those bad people. So even though its relationship to the OSR isn’t part of its founding principles, it still is a critical part of its history. The goals are completely different though, right? I didn't see any principles related to hexcrawling or adapting old modules or... honestly whatever the gently caress OSR is supposed to be trying to accomplish.
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Dec 8, 2019 02:26
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theironjef posted:The goals are completely different though, right? I didn't see any principles related to hexcrawling or adapting old modules or... honestly whatever the gently caress OSR is supposed to be trying to accomplish. I mean, that’s part of the problem. No one actually knows what the OSR was trying to do, especially the people within the OSR.
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Dec 8, 2019 02:32
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theironjef posted:The goals are completely different though, right? I didn't see any principles related to hexcrawling or adapting old modules or... honestly whatever the gently caress OSR is supposed to be trying to accomplish. 
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Dec 8, 2019 02:47
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The OSR started out as "what if we had rules-light RPGs (which we misremember AD&D as being), and put roleplay front and centre" and within about a picosecond of its birth got co-opted by Nazis and backslid into "woman and immigrants ruined society forever with their political correctness, which is why AD&D is the only real elfgame." Anyone who still clings to the ~OSR movement~ label despite this (instead of just going "I like old RPGs" like a normal person) is either an idiot, doesn't think the OSR being full of Nazis is a problem, or worse. I can sympathise with the desire to reclaim the name but it ain't loving happening. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Dec 8, 2019 |
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Dec 8, 2019 03:06
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Gobbeldygook posted:As far as I can tell their goal is to make games like they were back when they were kids before those goddamn SJWs and MMOs RUINED games and poo poo on their childhoods No. I mean, there'll be horrible grogs in the crowd, but that kind of bawling is endemic in the 3.x/d20 crowd more than the OSR from what I've seen.
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Dec 8, 2019 03:09
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Lemon-Lime posted:The OSR started out as "what if we had rules-light RPGs (which we misremember AD&D as being), and put roleplay front and centre" and within about a picosecond of its birth got co-opted by Nazis and backslid into "woman and immigrants ruined society forever with their political correctness, which is why AD&D is the only real elfgame." The OSR is not "full" of Nazis, there definitely are some present(and that is indeed a problem), but that can be said about pretty much any RPG fandom(or really any fandom) over a certain size, but that doesn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater like what a lot of people around here are suggesting(that means letting said Nazi assholes win), it means you fight harder against them and what they represent Also no sane person would ever describe by the book AD&D as being rules-light, but most versions of Basic D&D I'd argue are definitely rules-light(if nowhere near as much as games like FATE or PBTA can be), as can be OD&D depending on how much of the supplements one uses Gobbeldygook posted:As far as I can tell their goal is to make games like they were back when they were kids before those goddamn SJWs and MMOs RUINED games and poo poo on their childhoods These kind of bad faith statements are really getting old dwarf74 posted:Uh. Exactly, I'm a huge OSR fanboy obviously, but I was born in 1990, 3rd edition was my first edition of the game(and Heroes Unlimited was my first RPG period), and 4th edition was the first version I owned myself(not counting starter boxes), so it's definitely not me hating on modern systems or trends that led me to the OSR
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Dec 8, 2019 04:03
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It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater except no one is sure what the baby is exactly or even if there's a baby in there.
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Dec 8, 2019 04:45
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Let's be completely fair, a LOT of the biggest voices identifying as 'the OSR' have been shitheads and some of its biggest advocates are absolutely the types of people that you count on as a barometer for the worst sort of thing. It's not exactly unreasonable for people to go, "The OSR? Hahah, like that thing the fascist pipe smoker likes?"
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Dec 8, 2019 04:56
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oriongates posted:FATE can handle "gang of wandering adventurers with a variety of abilities in a fantasy land" pretty well. The first kind, definitely not giving a poo poo about the second kind. drrockso20 posted:Personally I think trying to use FATE to do something D&D style is a REALLY terrible idea, and yeah I'll admit part of that is because my poorly formed brain has a harder time comprehending how that kind of system functions than HP Lovecraft and a plate of seafood, but it nonetheless feels like a really poor fit Mostly it'll function as a group of friends hanging out and occasionally rolling 4d6. that's all I want, rules which are largely an invisible system of arbitration. I'm burned out on the fiddly bits of gaming, I want basically a collaborative Moth storytelling hour.
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Dec 8, 2019 05:00
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:Mostly it'll function as a group of friends hanging out and occasionally rolling 4d6. that's all I want, rules which are largely an invisible system of arbitration. I'm burned out on the fiddly bits of gaming, I want basically a collaborative Moth storytelling hour. TinyDungeon 2E will probably do what you're looking for. It's a great little system, very accessible and can be incredibly simple. Rulebook is full of stuff you can plug in like races and traits and equipment if you're looking for just a little bit more structure, but that's all optional, hell, even XP and advancemet are optional rules. You can play the game as stripped down as you want and it still works really well.
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Dec 8, 2019 05:52
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That sounds rad AF frankly, but I've changed my mind and I'm actually going to run a Feng Shui 2 game. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148541/Feng-Shui-Second-Edition-digital Earlier in thread I asked about a chop socky game and everyone suggested some suppliments from Kindred of the East, and while those books were great even if I don't remember the name, this is also frikkin sweet.
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Dec 8, 2019 06:13
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:That sounds rad AF frankly, but I've changed my mind and I'm actually going to run a Feng Shui 2 game. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/148541/Feng-Shui-Second-Edition-digital Earlier in thread I asked about a chop socky game and everyone suggested some suppliments from Kindred of the East, and while those books were great even if I don't remember the name, this is also frikkin sweet. Feng Shui 2 is pretty fun if you just want to have a beat-em-up good time with enough crunch to fall back on. I'd def recommend it for casual gaming.
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Dec 8, 2019 06:21
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Speaking as someone who chilled in the OSR for several years... There are some good games to be found there, that have actual reasonings beyond nostalgia. All of Kevin Crawford's work, the Nightmares Underneath RPG, and publications by Hydra Cooperative are all good systems designed by non-reactionary people as far as I can tell. But many of its larger names, from Frog God Games, Lamentations, Autarch, etc, have shielded and legitimized toxic people and whose works were mainstream within said OSR sphere. While Zak S has justifiably been exiled with extreme prejudice from several communities, others still have a sense of legitimacy to this day. Thus the reason for SWORD DREAM forming. Lord knows that Paizo and WotC have their own bad takes, as does wider nerd culture, although in my personal experience I have encountered more reactionary, bigoted, and overall terrible people (both as general fans and game designers) within the OSR than other D&D subcultures and fandoms. While I do play some retroclones time and again, I would not think to recruit strangers anymore for them. This is a wider policy with games in general no matter the system as I already built up my own circle of confidants, but least of all with retroclones nowadays.
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Dec 8, 2019 06:44
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fool_of_sound posted:Feng Shui 2 is pretty fun if you just want to have a beat-em-up good time with enough crunch to fall back on. I'd def recommend it for casual gaming. I found Feng Shui 2 to have a ton of the rose coloured glasses effect when I tried it a few months back. I remembered FS being fast and smooth, but forgot that at the time the alternatives involved calculating THAC0s. The double dice and margin system felt almost clunky in a modern design context.
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