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They didn't say he was masterminding it though, they agreed it wasn't a genocide, it was caused by the Bolsheviks but not intentionally to kill Ukrainians. That jives well with what I learned when I took a university course on the Stalin era a few years ago.
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Dec 12, 2019 19:09
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stalin deserves blame in so far as the responsibility he had for setting up a system where lower level party members were too afraid to accurately report what was happening, and his lack of vigor in verifying reports and following up on the famine - and he probably didn’t because dude was notorious for believing what he wanted to hear and not believing what he didn’t want to hear, see: the clusterfuck at the start of the nazi invasion stalin did some things wrong
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Dec 12, 2019 19:15
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Trash Ops posted:no one denies a famine, just whether it was ebil stalin masterminding it vs just something terrible happening jfc from the episode: In 1930, there was an exceptional harvest, 83.5 million tons. In '31, in '32, which is supposedly when this famine genocide is happening, it dropped to 69.5, so clearly not as great of a harvest, but it's also not starving in the streets low, and this is the point which they had to ration, but there was no mass famine.
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Dec 12, 2019 19:16
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edit: im dumb
Venom Snake fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 19:19
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Venom Snake posted:Whats important to consider when discussing post ww-2 eastern europe is something like 90% or more of buildings had been destroyed in multiple cities across multiple countries. Logistical supply networks had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up. The famine that afflicted the Ukraine and it's surrounding states was an mistake in planning and strategy. Importantly afterwards it didn't happen again. Does this mean we shouldn't hold the people who made that mistake responsible? no. but at the same time it's another case of when bad poo poo happens in communist countries it's the goverments fault but when 30k people die every year from preventable illness thats the free market at work baby ... the famine was well before ww2
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Dec 12, 2019 19:28
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THS posted:stalin deserves blame in so far as the responsibility he had for setting up a system where lower level party members were too afraid to accurately report what was happening, and his lack of vigor in verifying reports and following up on the famine - and he probably didn’t because dude was notorious for believing what he wanted to hear and not believing what he didn’t want to hear, see: the clusterfuck at the start of the nazi invasion also selling grain on the international market during the famine
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Dec 12, 2019 19:29
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Trash Ops posted:no one denies a famine right, they just question whether six million people died from it. very telling that liberals can't tolerate any challenge to their official histories. e: sorry, that figure isn't right. i think i've gotten my notes mixed up, but the general form of the critique is unchanged.
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Dec 12, 2019 19:34
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the 3-5 million figures quoted often include "people who haven't been born due to famine" or some amazing galaxy brained bullshit like that nearly 2 loving million people died, why inflate it? isn't that terrible enough? i guess "almost twice the potato famine" doesn't sound bad enough or some poo poo
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Dec 12, 2019 19:42
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I didnt listen to the stalin episode but ive listened to a few revleft and even a few other lefty podcasts and they pretty much all suck because theyre all more interested in discussing "theory" in the abstract and not actually relating to or looking towards actually existing movements here and now.
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Dec 12, 2019 19:53
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its kind of like the radio version of all the people on twitter and online who describe themselves as marxist-leninists but are not in, have never been in, or have no desire to be in a revolutionary party. like people who have very strong opinions about how revolutionary organizing should work who have never even been to a meeting of a revolutionary party. not poo poo talking cause theyre uninvolved, in a lot of cases people wanna be they just dont know how to get started, but like if you arent involved and have no practical experience then maybe dont have rigid already defined ideas about how things should be done, instead keep an open mind and be open to ideas and practices of people who have been practicing the things you think you agree with
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Dec 12, 2019 19:58
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pod casts
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Dec 12, 2019 19:59
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for example: newspapers. write them, produce them, sell them.
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Dec 12, 2019 20:00
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GalacticAcid posted:pod casts Operation Cast Pod
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Dec 12, 2019 20:00
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apropos to nothing posted:I didnt listen to the stalin episode but ive listened to a few revleft and even a few other lefty podcasts and they pretty much all suck because theyre all more interested in discussing "theory" in the abstract and not actually relating to or looking towards actually existing movements here and now. 
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Dec 12, 2019 20:04
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i think i tried listening to red menace, which is one of the same people who does revleft? i dunno. but i couldn't handle it because the podders seemed to be just jabbering from a script, and one had a che beard and a picture of che on the wall behind him yeah, ive never seen any of them but i get strong communist larper energy from a lot of those podcasters
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Dec 12, 2019 20:10
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apropos to nothing posted:yeah, ive never seen any of them but i get strong communist larper energy from a lot of those podcasters it's a cottage industry, so it's to be expected
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Dec 12, 2019 20:13
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starting a local red guards chapter brb 
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Dec 12, 2019 20:25
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apropos to nothing posted:for example: newspapers. write them, produce them, sell them. I'm going to start the 21st century version of a newspaper: a Patreon blog
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Dec 12, 2019 20:27
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:I'm going to start the 21st century version of a newspaper: a Patreon blog thats another classic, the lefty twitter account with a patreon in the bio asking for money so they can continue to do an organizing
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Dec 12, 2019 20:30
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StashAugustine posted:Operation Cast Pod
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Dec 12, 2019 20:31
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For an extra 3 dollars a month, you can watch me do Twitch chats with my online friends! Tomorrow, I'm talking to a guy who discovered anarchism in college in 2017, but recently converted to Maoism after graduating and realizing how boring his office job is
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Dec 12, 2019 20:32
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:For an extra 3 dollars a month, you can watch me do Twitch chats with my online friends! Tomorrow, I'm talking to a guy who discovered anarchism in college in 2017, but recently converted to Maoism after graduating and realizing how boring his office job is
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Dec 12, 2019 20:43
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i love how easy it is to trick this thread into debating the holodomor
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Dec 12, 2019 20:44
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is it really a debate if everyone's position is that the soviets didn't engineer the famine but badly bungled the response to it
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Dec 12, 2019 20:46
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i wish people graduated to maoism. i know too many anarchists of the "violence is always bad, any expression of power or authority is unjustified" variety
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Dec 12, 2019 20:46
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apropos to nothing posted:yeah, ive never seen any of them but i get strong communist larper energy from a lot of those podcasters here's a video of a chinese cult but it's kinda how i see it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6KtTaKDIG8 apropos to nothing posted:its kind of like the radio version of all the people on twitter and online who describe themselves as marxist-leninists but are not in, have never been in, or have no desire to be in a revolutionary party. like people who have very strong opinions about how revolutionary organizing should work who have never even been to a meeting of a revolutionary party. not poo poo talking cause theyre uninvolved, in a lot of cases people wanna be they just dont know how to get started, but like if you arent involved and have no practical experience then maybe dont have rigid already defined ideas about how things should be done, instead keep an open mind and be open to ideas and practices of people who have been practicing the things you think you agree with it turns marxism into a kind of special snowflake ideology rather than an anti-ideology aimed at changing the material conditions of society. or it becomes kind of like a personal identity / brand to distinguish yourself based on how you front and what you say (as opposed to what you do). this hold true for mainstream politics as well, like elizabeth warren saying she's going to take on wall street. but i'm not posting from a jungle bunker while i'm waging the revolution so it's not like i'm special or more radical than thou either. but I think it's a shame when there are ML groups (often led by people who are significantly older, and savvier, than their rank and file) that know they're exploiting people like this. the kiddos "identify as" a marxist-leninist, and then hunt around for the party that has the "correct" line -- divorced from practice -- and then one of these groups scoops them up. but the sect-like structure ends up concealing the actual practice of the organization and smothers internal communication / debate of which the leadership does not approve of, but the kiddos can stay in provided they don't ask too many questions. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Dec 12, 2019 |
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Dec 12, 2019 20:47
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Raskolnikov38 posted:is it really a debate if everyone's position is that the soviets didn't engineer the famine but badly bungled the response to it ok, not a debate, but seriousposting
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Dec 12, 2019 20:47
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Serf posted:i wish people graduated to maoism. i know too many anarchists of the "violence is always bad, any expression of power or authority is unjustified" variety anarchists should graduate elementary school first probably
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Dec 12, 2019 20:47
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smarxist posted:i love how easy it is to trick this thread into debating the holodomor We need new material. Dubcek was right
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Dec 12, 2019 20:49
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interviewing someone who only goes by their twitter name, @rosa_cucksemburg, about their medium article on how league of legends players represent a separate but still revolutionary class
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Dec 12, 2019 20:51
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Serf posted:i wish people graduated to maoism. i know too many anarchists of the "violence is always bad, any expression of power or authority is unjustified" variety my drawings, digital landscapes, and Etsy crafts will revolutionize the world, just ask my art commune
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Dec 12, 2019 20:52
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i'm reading hochschild's book on the abraham lincoln brigade and he has a throw-away describing anarachism as a pre-industrial ideology and its probably his best insight yet (in this book)
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Dec 12, 2019 20:54
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i'm not going to post pics of the dude because that gets helldumpy, but it was on a youtube channel. either way i agree wth you and i think it's like thinking of theory as casting down lightning bolts from the sky or something. like you pick up the short course and go, "here's the text..." and then the book rises into the air and then opens up by itself as the words fly out of the page and smack you in the face: KA-POW its definitely a case where people adopt some kind of left wing ideology as an identity and then shop around for others who also are part of that identity. then yeah, a lot of times they get recruited to groups which are sects or even sometimes political cults that basically manipulate people. its very sad and unfortunate. 9/10 times if im having a convo with someone and they ask "so what tendency/kind of socialist are you" or "so you guys are trotskyist right?" i just write it off and accept that theyre not going to get organized with us or anyone else in anyway cause theyre more interested in organizing as a thought exercise than a concrete task.
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Dec 12, 2019 20:56
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too often i run into people who are like "yeah i'm a socialist but the bolsheviks were wrong to do a violent revolution. also markets are good. sankara, who's that?"
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Dec 12, 2019 20:57
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Opposition to unjustified hierarchies, but WITHOUT violence. We'll talk them into giving up their power.
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Dec 12, 2019 21:08
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What do you mean social reform by passing laws is still the use of (a threat of) violence?
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Dec 12, 2019 21:10
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I've never gotten a clear answer from proponents of non-violent revolution as to what happens when the bourgeois just says "no" and starts shooting you.
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Dec 12, 2019 21:16
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legit seen people say that the only defensible revolution was the carnation revolution
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Dec 12, 2019 21:17
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i'm not going to post pics of the dude because that gets helldumpy, but it was on a youtube channel. either way i agree wth you and i think it's like thinking of theory as casting down lightning bolts from the sky or something. like you pick up the short course and go, "here's the text..." and then the book rises into the air and then opens up by itself as the words fly out of the page and smack you in the face: KA-POW Jokes aside, my first experience with left organizing was in one of these microsects, one with particularly culty aspects to it. It was one of the most unpleasant social experiences of my life, and it turned me off to doing more than showing up for the occasional march or rally for almost a decade. There seem to be fewer of them around these days and that's a good thing.
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Dec 12, 2019 21:20
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Serf posted:too often i run into people who are like "yeah i'm a socialist but the bolsheviks were wrong to do a violent revolution. also markets are good. sankara, who's that?" I learned about sankara from POD CASTERS because the rest of the internet is irony poisoned, these forums included
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Dec 12, 2019 21:24
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