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I'm not going to theorise as to why we lost. Disasters on this scale are usually caused by more than one failure point. I'm going to make one isolated criticism about the message, but you've heard this criticism before, and you've hated this criticism before. In short: Let's not make it complicated. I know you love to think, and to explore the minutiae of socialism as a wonderful historical movement for justice with its wealth of academic ideas and the exciting new policies it's willing to put down. Most people have switched off by then. The press aren't going to explain these things for you, either. Is that stupid? I don't care! Political analysis is a rare hobby in this country, and you're rightly allowed to vote even if you don't stay up into the early hours of the morning wasting your life on spreadsheets. You're allowed to vote even if you haven't read that book you snobbishly suggest everyone must read, or see that documentary everyone really must see. It's very much good taste to idealise a world in which we have all become churched sufficiently as to be baptized in socialist discourse. I sincerely hope we're there in time. With real people and a few weeks in an election campaign, though? Get real! Compare how long it takes to read an article with how long it takes to understand the political cartoon underneath it. It's probably my cartoonist speaking, but we need a Labour party which can explain itself at a glance. "It's time for real change" is the exact kind of nebulous messaging we were criticising Change UK for when they called themselves Change UK. It's almost word for word their exact message. "For the many, not the few" is still far from clear, and may even require a bit of foreknowledge to explain who the "many" and the "few" are. When it comes to Vote Leave and the new government, I know we all love to mock its Spartan wit, but they get their point across at a glance. "Get Brexit Done" "Oven Ready Deal" "Get On With Our Priorities" "Safer Streets." "Investing [big number] in the NHS." I know political people want desperately to try and go a layer deeper into thinking about where these statements are lies or what historic political complexes belie them and their authors. No one's reading that essay, though. Just look at the drat picture the words paint. Its lines are much sharper than our fuzzy scribbles.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:07
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His Divine Shadow posted:Seems to me that is the kind of thinking that works against your cause, and you know rurals can tell too that you think of them as uneducated idiots and don't really care about their communities other than for votes. This is an endemic problem on the left, the left used to be anti-globalization, I remember the big anti WTO protests in the 90s and also how basically all their warnings came true. Now the left is largely pro-globalization and as long as that is how things stand, you will only win votes in cities and it's not enough to win with. It may not help but saying educated and uneducated are just statistical observations of voting trends. I could get more specific and say rural school leavers vs university educated but at that point it really us dancing around the academic observation that increases in education by and large result in a more liberal disposition while lower education trend to populism and conservatism. As for globalisayion that genies out of the bottle. Its now entrenched as part of the solutions to vlimate change via moving from old methods of energy to new methods. The legt wing answer to that would say that globalisation is the contributor to climate change but again this is going to be a hard argument to get over as both climate change and globalisation are complicated concepts and not as easy to digest as BREXIT NOW.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:08
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Some of the changes in the Northeast are completely ridiculous. Sedgefield -17% for Labour with +8 each for tory and brexit party. What has changed from 2017? Are there so many protest voters in there? Hartlepool and Easington both ~20% brexit party wtf
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Dec 13, 2019 08:08
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something something the will of the people. excited to see that mythical 'one nation' talk and not, like, all the total executive power items in the manifesto.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:11
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Ms Adequate posted:-We were always between a rock and a hard place on Brexit but anecdotally a huge number of us knew people who said things like "I'm not super on Labour's policy but it's not enough to stop me voting for them" or "I'd prefer a strong Remain stance but this is the only viable way to stop Brexit" or "I'm for Leave/Remain but putting it back to the people, with a deal that wouldn't crush us if we took it, is the only chance of healing the divisions." This one's probably the most fart-huffing one because, yes, purely anecdotal, but when I managed to get my parents to come around a bit on Corbyn because of his stance it was hard not to feel that progress was being made. But we didn't see a lot of people going to the Lib Dems (Despite the fact they've won gently caress all seats they grew their vote share healthily) either. The assumption was if Labour chooses Remain we lose a lot of people to Tories/BXP, but if we choose Leave we lose a lot of people to Lib Dems, especially the kids who we were thinking would be a huge factor for us. As I said, we tried to thread the needle instead. Maybe that couldn't be done, but I understand why the attempt was made, and why it was seeming like a good idea until about nine hours ago. I want to make clear everything I write here is by an American. But I honestly think that this is the critical point. Labour had not good choice for Brexit. Taking a strong stance of remain, stay or referendum was going to alienate a huge part of the electorate no mater what the choice. I will argue that a hard Brexit was inevitable and the better scenario would have been for brexit to have happened at the end of October which the Torries and Johson having to own every single thing about it and then have an election. But it is easy for some one on this side of the Atlantic to say that but on the other hand Johnson is still going to crash the car and will do so with no mechanism to hold him accountable for the next 5 years. Things are grim, it is going to be bad.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:12
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https://twitter.com/sanitarynaptime/status/1205376232789024768?s=21
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Dec 13, 2019 08:12
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ronya posted:huge surge in CON vote share, including in CON/LAB marginals,.even with surges in overall turnout boris took the tory party from 13.6m votes to probably 14m. Lib Dems went from 2.4m to ~3.7m while swinson lost her set. Brexit party took 700k from selected seats. Greens have the same number of new voters as tories. So that swing and level turnout is labour smashing attendance in cities, and even taking some targets, while losing over 2m voters and the entire north with 50% turnouts and 20% swings. This was a strategic choice. The ground game utterly failed to deal with the scale and uniformity of the attack lines and I'm not loving surprised that contact creator cultism served us no usable purpose beyond telling us too late to go north. We bled massively and directly to poor attendance past yorkshire and little bits to everyone else and we fell over a tipping point.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:Seems to me that is the kind of thinking that works against your cause, and you know rurals can tell too that you think of them as uneducated idiots and don't really care about their communities other than for votes. This is an endemic problem on the left, the left used to be anti-globalization, I remember the big anti WTO protests in the 90s and also how basically all their warnings came true. Now the left is largely pro-globalization and as long as that is how things stand, you will only win votes in cities and it's not enough to win with. How do you put globalization back in the bag? Even if a traditional Clement Atlee style left wing movement wouldn't be able to do it surely? I mean how do you convince investors to back your economy and pay labour costs that are way out of whack with the 3rd world? Capital will always seek the highest return and globalization makes this possible. Technology makes it easy to find loopholes. What's the solution? The jobs are never coming back so either create new ones you can't outsource or find another solution?
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Dec 13, 2019 08:18
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my dad posted:It sure didn't take long for the "we need to be more racist" vultures of social democracy to show up like they always do at times like these. I don’t think it’s social democrats who think we need to be more racist: they think we need to be less racist and also less socialist, they live in big cities and the Southeast and they voted Labour or LD.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:19
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justcola posted:A whole 5 years of tory government for something that'll be done by the end of January. loving ridiculous. And that's not even taking into account the now probably inevitable departures of Scotland and Northern Ireland. England and Wales seem completely and utterly hosed.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:20
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Lid posted:It may not help but saying educated and uneducated are just statistical observations of voting trends. I could get more specific and say rural school leavers vs university educated but at that point it really us dancing around the academic observation that increases in education by and large result in a more liberal disposition while lower education trend to populism and conservatism. I hope the genie is not out because I am convinced the fallout over globalization is liable to become apocalyptic and usher in fash parties all over the EU. It is the root cause of so many modern ills, and IMO the root cause of brexit.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:20
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Fash are going to be on the up. And then in ten years melty columnists are going to be all ‘how could this have happened???’
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Dec 13, 2019 08:20
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 britane.jpg
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Dec 13, 2019 08:20
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justcola posted:We do need a good leader on the left, though I'm struggling to think of anyone who'd be both charismatic and willing to fight dirty. Go for the slogans, the lowest common denominator, the bullshit. Maybe we don't even know em yet That person? Ed Miliband.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:22
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CSM posted:Nothing will be done by January. Brexit is a policy that will consume UK politics for years to come. The (parliamentary) vote to leave was always just the start of the whole proces. There's thousands of laws and regulations to revise, and trade talks will take years as well. Aye - at least that'll hurt the Tories for 'GET R DUN' but it's too late for that really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWm03wYBTbM I think it may be useful to talk about working class, regional voting, messaging, etc. but the bottom line is people will vote the way they are told rather than in their best interest. loving tactical voting, antisemitism, Brexit, Jo;, the whole shower of poo poo. I'll vote again but feel a lot less like it'd make a difference.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:24
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His Divine Shadow posted:I hope the genie is not out because I am convinced the fallout over globalization is liable to become apocalyptic and usher in fash parties all over the EU. It is the root cause of so many modern ills, and IMO the root cause of brexit. Maybe history did end in 1991. 
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Dec 13, 2019 08:24
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Beefeater1980 posted:I don’t think it’s social democrats who think we need to be more racist: they think we need to be less racist and also less socialist, they live in big cities and the Southeast and they voted Labour or LD. I wasn't talking about the... Never mind, you'll see what I meant in the months to come, unfortunately.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:25
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my dad posted:I wasn't talking about the... Oh. poo poo. Yeah.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:26
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Beefeater1980 posted:Oh. Yeah, we’re in for a hellish few years. Can’t wait for settled status to be revoked, increased barriers put up to retaining non-British workers, and then just wind rushing them all out of the country.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:30
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cant wait to see my landlord later i bet hell be in a good enough mood to let us make him get an actual plumber out
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Dec 13, 2019 08:30
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Watch yourself this weekend too, any time after a fash election the gammons reckon themselves a bit tasty. Don't rise to owt, walk away, protect other people. Going to go to work now, but thanks thread. Solidarity.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:32
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Tories get 56% of the seats on 43% of the vote. Over 50% of the votes went to parties supporting a 2nd referendum but 'get Brexit done' will be the take away from the election. What a garbage system.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:32
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justcola posted:Watch yourself this weekend too, any time after a fash election the gammons reckon themselves a bit tasty. Don't rise to owt, walk away, protect other people. My wife is saying she doesn’t want to leave the house this weekend.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:37
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I'm a man without a country
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Dec 13, 2019 08:39
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Well at least loving Swinson lost her seat. Comrades there is nothing that could have been done. Jesus could have led the party with the most melty manifesto of all time but Johnson would still have won this 2 months ago with “get Brexit done”
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Dec 13, 2019 08:39
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My theory is that the only thing that mattered this election is the last 2 and a half years having the only news be that parliament is in disarray and Brexit deals being rejected over and over. Because lets be honest, literally nothing else has been happening in the news and world of politics. Most people do not spend any time delving deep into politics except watching the headlines and basically everybody agreed that politics has become a useless embarassment. It was the first time ever some people started paying attention to Parliament in a long time, and a hung parliament is not conductive to getting things done. This election was not won on policies or personalities. If you voted Labour in 2017 it certainly wasnt Boris's personality that was going to get you to switch, and vice versa, and nobody cared about the manifestos. Hell, the Tories basically didn't even have one! The only thing anyone cared about was Brexit, and two things changed: The Brexit Party came along and heavily targetted Labour Leave seats, and Labour changed their policy from doing Brexit to more of the same last 2 and a half embarassing years of Brexit mess game-playing. People wanted a clear and simple way out of this mess, but Labour couldnt give one, and got eaten from both sides. The electorate just dont care about anything else right now, sadly.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:40
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Well Portsmouth South actually increased its Labour majority at the expense of the Lib Dems, while the Tory vote stayed pretty much exactly were it was from last time. The tiniest shard of a silver lining
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Dec 13, 2019 08:40
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I slept terribly.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:40
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Man, people work fast: https://teespring.com/en-GB/shop/I-voted-for-jeremy-corbyn?pid=389&cid=100019 Commiserations everyone. Stay safe, do what you need to take care of yourself, never surrender.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:41
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Jippa posted:I slept terribly. I was so drunk I slept really well and suddenly woke up and remembered urgh
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Dec 13, 2019 08:42
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I can't stop thinking of all those school children in poor areas in the UK, all those horror stories I read. Where the school teachers have to use their own salaries to buy equipment for the students, or the little boy who cried on Fridays because he had to go home for the weekend, where there was no food and no heating, or the interviews of poverty stricken school children with gaunt faces and listless eyes from these places and not believing this was recorded in western europe.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:44
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I didn't drink last night but I'm breaking out the whiskey now
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Dec 13, 2019 08:44
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Little unusual to wake up into a nightmare.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:44
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Good lord 
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Dec 13, 2019 08:45
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‘The people’s government’ we’re loving here, let’s wait for someone to burn down Westminster and the imposition of a crackdown.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:45
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learnincurve posted:Well at least loving Swinson lost her seat. Yeah, we all wildly underestimated the Brexit impact.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:47
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There is no final defeat, just like there is no final victory. Just the same battle over and over again. Tony Benn said that and he was right. I'm loving angry, and I'm going to put that to good use. I'm sorry we couldn't do better, but like gently caress am I just gonna take it from these tory ghouls.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:47
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CSM posted:Nothing will be done by January. Brexit is a policy that will consume UK politics for years to come. The (parliamentary) vote to leave was always just the start of the whole proces. There's thousands of laws and regulations to revise, and trade talks will take years as well. Brexit is now owned totally by the Tories; there's not enough opposition in the Commons to stop it (and Boris is probably going to gut the Lords out of spite and revenge) so make sure that albatross is securely fastened around their collective necks.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:47
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Don’t worry everyone, when Brexit goes inevitably badly the press will finally come around and blame... labour for not stopping it.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:47
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Random Integer posted:Tories get 56% of the seats on 43% of the vote. As an American, I can relate to the frustration with first-past-the-post, moronic political pundits, and woefully misinformed electorates. I dread a similar outcome happening in my country in 11 months.
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Dec 13, 2019 08:48
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